Room correction- mainly analogue setup

[Entrigo]

Hi all,

Advice badly needed!

I have been progressively upgrading my system over the past couple of years, making some very good improvements, but I keep skirting around the issue of a less than ideal listening room (full details at the bottom).

As room treatment is not really an option, I keep going back to the idea of adding some kind of room correction software.

My set up is mostly analogue – with vinyl playing the lion's share:
• ⁠Technics SL-1300G turntable feeding into
• ⁠Vertere Phono-1 phono preamp feeding into
• ⁠Rega Elex-R amp
• Also feeding into it a Wiim Pro Plus streamer and a Marantz SA8005 CD player.

Is there a way to add a room correction module /DSD whatever to the Rega amp so that room correction is applied to all inputs?

I really like the sound of the Elex-R, so would want something to tighten up the sound, reducing "glare", reflection etc but retaining the original Rega character.

Room info:
• One half of a double living room (whole room 7 x 3m).
• Speakers either side of fireplace and TV - about 3m apart
• On left of L speaker there's a bay window with wooden shutters; on the right of the R speaker there's my record cabinet cutting the room in half and above /behind it mostly empty space.
• Speakers are about 2.5m from the listening position.
• Listening position is on a large sofa, with a few cushions and a large footstool in front
• Sofa is against the “picture wall”, with lots and lots of picture frames on it – as they are my wife’s movie-themed frames, covering them all with large squares of acoustic panels will likely result in divorce! I place a 150x80cm felt panel behind my head and pull the sofa away from the wall when listening, scatter some cushions or rugs on the floor, but that’s about as much as I can do in terms of room treatment.
• Hardwood flooring

Any suggestions also for units/components that could work- ideally under £1k?

Thanks!

 

[Vincent Kars]

It can be done e.g. miniDSP Flex as it can run Dirac.
Unfortunately your amp has a pre-out but not a power amp in. So you need: switchbox >Flex > amp.

Speakers are about 2.5m from the listening position.

Try near filed listening. Have the tweeters at ear level, toe-in having the acoustical axis of the speaker pointing straight to your head and reduce the distances to e.g. 1 m (between you and the speakers and between the speakers them self). By doing so the direct sound becomes predominant eliminating the room as much as possible.

 

[Entrigo]

It can be done e.g. miniDSP Flex as it can run Dirac.
Unfortunately your amp has a pre-out but not a power amp in. So you need: switchbox >Flex > amp.

Thanks.

Will need to look at that. Someone elsewhere suggested using the Wiim - running the phono into the Wiim's line in and the Wiim as it is into the Rega Line in. Would that work?

Try near filed listening. Have the tweeters at ear level, toe-in having the acoustical axis of the speaker pointing straight to your head and reduce the distances to e.g. 1 m (between you and the speakers and between the speakers them self). By doing so the direct sound becomes predominant eliminating the room as much as possible.

Well sadly that would probably not work, as it would mean having the speakers right in the middle of the living room. I do bring them a bit into the room, so they end up as a ca. 2m equilateral triangle - which is what Focal recommends - and of course toed in to cross just behind my head (and recently started placing a 140x60 felt board behind my head). Although I have to be honest, they do create a better soundstage when they are 2.5m apart (and 2.3m from me), though I haven't paid attention to frequency responses in that position.

 

[Integralista]

Hi Entrigo, there is a lot detailed information about your system in your post. I just miss: Which cartridge, which speakers are you using and at least main, speaker, interconnect cables are you using? I am not big fan of Dirac, etc. room corrections. In certain situations and systems it works for sure. Questios:

1. Does character of sound of your hifisystem (negatives you ' ve described) change with volume of sound?
2. Does character of sound change when changing components, sources of signal?
3. Have you tried influence of good active adjustable subwoofer?
4. Have you tried other speakers, cables, amps in your system? What is your experience after them?

My system is also mainly analogue (Rega turntables, Lyra and Benz Micro cartridges, Rega phono preamps, Audia Flight amp and CD, Cabasse main speakers and 2x Subwoofer_Velodyne, Cardas and QED and Nordost cables. Also years long tuning. Similar Superwoman at my home, not accepting visual and nearly any compromises...
My room is 7x5 living room opened into kitchen and hall room with midfloor. Simply very complicated space, it has more "L" shape. For very long time my system was sitting like fortress on long wall like yours. On short wall was installed HT with big OLED TV. There were two independent systems in one room. I was never satisfied with sound setup of stereo hifi but paradox; HT on short wall has worked and sounded very good. So I dismantled HT, sold HT and twisted all around. Big Hifi came below position of OLED TV and big towers are finaly placed some 60-70cm from rear and 100cm from side walls. I played with listening position, which has changed after many experiments. My speakers are very sensitive and "alive", it required some effort to find optimal placement. Same for a game with 2 subwoofers. I truly do not look for some Dirac magic or similar. Old school hifi arsenal has to be tried first. What has also helped is large wool based carped on some part of the floor. And we made new wood wall tiling on short walls and new roof from plaster slabs. But nothing very special, normaly used materials. BR.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Will need to look at that. Someone elsewhere suggested using the Wiim - running the phono into the Wiim's line in and the Wiim as it is into the Rega Line in. Would that work?

Sure, the WiiM comes with an EQ (10 bands?) so you can try it. Of course it work only for gear connected to the line in of the WiiM,
EQ is different from DRC (but don't ask me what the real difference is)

 

[daytona600]

Room Correction does work if fully featured ( read very , very expensive )

GLM Software - Genelec.com

Since 2006, GLM software has offered precise calibration and control of our SAM Monitoring systems to minimise unwanted room influences and improve workflow, helping your audio productions sound on-point, everywhere. More recently, GLM expanded to offer GRADE Room Acoustic Reports, further...

www.genelec.com

Trinnov | Digital Room Correction, Monitoring and Immersive Sound Solutions

Since 2003, Trinnov develops innovative digital room correction and immersive sound solutions for studio monitoring, cinemas, high-end home-theater and HiFi

www.trinnov.com

Cheap stuff just ruins timing / sound / enjoyment

Near field active monitors have all this built in as standard in Digital domain , Analogue Domain is very , very expensive

 

[Entrigo]

Hi Entrigo, there is a lot detailed information about your system in your post. I just miss: Which cartridge, which speakers are you using and at least main, speaker, interconnect cables are you using? I am not big fan of Dirac, etc. room corrections. In certain situations and systems it works for sure. Questios:

1. Does character of sound of your hifisystem (negatives you ' ve described) change with volume of sound?
2. Does character of sound change when changing components, sources of signal?
3. Have you tried influence of good active adjustable subwoofer?
4. Have you tried other speakers, cables, amps in your system? What is your experience after them?

My system is also mainly analogue (Rega turntables, Lyra and Benz Micro cartridges, Rega phono preamps, Audia Flight amp and CD, Cabasse main speakers and 2x Subwoofer_Velodyne, Cardas and QED and Nordost cables. Also years long tuning. Similar Superwoman at my home, not accepting visual and nearly any compromises...
My room is 7x5 living room opened into kitchen and hall room with midfloor. Simply very complicated space, it has more "L" shape. For very long time my system was sitting like fortress on long wall like yours. On short wall was installed HT with big OLED TV. There were two independent systems in one room. I was never satisfied with sound setup of stereo hifi but paradox; HT on short wall has worked and sounded very good. So I dismantled HT, sold HT and twisted all around. Big Hifi came below position of OLED TV and big towers are finaly placed some 60-70cm from rear and 100cm from side walls. I played with listening position, which has changed after many experiments. My speakers are very sensitive and "alive", it required some effort to find optimal placement. Same for a game with 2 subwoofers. I truly do not look for some Dirac magic or similar. Old school hifi arsenal has to be tried first. What has also helped is large wool based carped on some part of the floor. And we made new wood wall tiling on short walls and new roof from plaster slabs. But nothing very special, normaly used materials. BR.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

So.
Cartridge - AT33PTGII as my main
Speakers - Focal Aria 906
Interconnects - low capacitance Blue Jeans LC and Mogami for TT and phono stage, though I assume less relevant using MC.

I can't say I hear all that wrong with the sound - it is very much more a "let's get the room acoustics right before spending £4k+ on new speakers and amp", as I plan to over the next couple of years. It sounds good to me but I know rationally that the room is not ideal, so I wanted to see if room correction would make a significant difference before buying the above.

Who knows, I might actually end up preferring how it sounds now. For example, as I posted a few times on this forum before, I liked my speakers MUCH more at home, in my reflective and oddly shaped listening room, than in Richer Sounds undoubtedly carefully and professionally designed demo room...

In terms of space/layout, to provide a bit more detail (and having measured distances accurately)
- default position, speakers are pushed back against the bookshelves behind, with a distance of 2.6m between them and 2.3m to the listening position (sofa)
- sofa is against the wall.
- said wall being my wife's prized movie picture wall - you can imagine my joy when I returned one day to find her attaching dozens of picture frames to that wall 🤣 (it does look good though)
- when doing some serious listening, I pull the speakers into the room a bit and closer together, pulling the sofa about 10cm away from the wall (and placing a 70x50 jigsaw felt backing board behind my head). Speakers end up being in a roughly equilateral 2m triangle,which incidentally is the placement that Focal recommends for the Aria 906 - although I feel they do create a better soundstage in the pushed-back position, strange as that might sound.

I have also started placing small sheepskin rugs in front of each speaker (in front of me there's a 120x80 upholstered footstool, so it helps). I might have to buy a couple of acoustic panels to keep in my office and perch them on the back of the sofa/against the wall when listening. A bit of a faff getting all these things in place every time though - this is also why I was thinking about room correction...

 

[Entrigo]

Room Correction does work if fully featured ( read very , very expensive )

GLM Software - Genelec.com

Since 2006, GLM software has offered precise calibration and control of our SAM Monitoring systems to minimise unwanted room influences and improve workflow, helping your audio productions sound on-point, everywhere. More recently, GLM expanded to offer GRADE Room Acoustic Reports, further...

www.genelec.com

Trinnov | Digital Room Correction, Monitoring and Immersive Sound Solutions

Since 2003, Trinnov develops innovative digital room correction and immersive sound solutions for studio monitoring, cinemas, high-end home-theater and HiFi

www.trinnov.com

Cheap stuff just ruins timing / sound / enjoyment

Near field active monitors have all this built in as standard in Digital domain , Analogue Domain is very , very expensive

Wow that sounds complicated already haha.

To be honest, what (re-) triggered this idea is reading about the Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 and its room correction feature, which seems to get lots of praise.

But I see your point. I did run the Wiim room correction a year or so ago and could barely hear anything different...

 

[nopiano]

But I see your point. I did run the Wiim room correction a year or so ago and could barely hear anything different...

Did you look at the correction it applied? Try a few more runs, ideally with an external mike, though I found the iPhone made a pretty good stab. I then reduced the cuts by about half and it was pretty decent. Make sure you limit to about 500Hz to avoid silly boosts at higher frequencies. You’re really only trying to correct for modes.

I have a pal who uses Dirac but it takes a lot of work and a good understanding of what changes matter and which don’t!

Your comments about glare and reflection don’t sound like things that DSP can correct. That sounds more like bad layout or something needing room treatment. Take a look at GIK who offer free consultation. https://www.gikacoustics.net/en-gb

 

[Entrigo]

Did you look at the correction it applied? Try a few more runs, ideally with an external mike, though I found the iPhone made a pretty good stab. I then reduced the cuts by about half and it was pretty decent. Make sure you limit to about 500Hz to avoid silly boosts at higher frequencies. You’re really only trying to correct for modes.

I have a pal who uses Dirac but it takes a lot of work and a good understanding of what changes matter and which don’t!

Your comments about glare and reflection don’t sound like things that DSP can correct. That sounds more like bad layout or something needing room treatment. Take a look at GIK who offer free consultation. https://www.gikacoustics.net/en-gb

I did but I could have been looking at an algebraic formula and it would have made the same sense haha..
No, that's a good point. I need to look into it and understand what each of the curves mean. Then ideally I would like to do a test with REW as well - once I have learned a bit more how to run and most importantly interpret the tests...

 

[nopiano]

I did but I could have been looking at an algebraic formula and it would have made the same sense haha..
No, that's a good point. I need to look into it and understand what each of the curves mean. Then ideally I would like to do a test with REW as well - once I have learned a bit more how to run and most importantly interpret the tests...

Yes, a good grasp of what frequency response graphs show you, and what r response you want in room is essential.

I’m sure these days there will be YouTube videos with suitable explanations and guidance. The lab reports on speakers in Hifi News and Stereophile are free on line, and come with narratives. Once you’ve looked at a few dozen you’ll get the drift!

 

[twinkletoes]

In my experience with room correction, it’s best thought of as a cherry on top rather than a problem-solver. The improvements tend to be subtle at best.

Another thing to consider is that most people have no real way to verify whether the corrections being applied are actually correct. Without measurements, how do you know what the software is really doing?

To properly understand a room, you need to measure it with a microphone and software so you can evaluate reverb and decay times and identify issues like nulls or dips. These problems can be improved, but they can’t be fully solved through software alone.

I’ve lived in places where I simply couldn’t get a hi-fi setup to work well, so I didn’t force it. I used a soundbar for TV and did my critical listening on headphones instead.

But I certainly wouldn't keep throwing money at it blindly not knowing what your room is actually doing.

This is why advice from pro engineers is often unpopular. They tend to say that if you have a bad room, spending a lot on speakers is money wasted. It’s not a fun thing to hear, but they do have a point.

Personally, I’d start by refining the layout. A lot of issues can be improved just by following good speaker placement practices. It’s very common to see speakers tucked into corners, pushed up against walls, placed behind sofas, set too wide apart, or positioned too close to the listening spot.

Sorting these things out first can make a surprisingly big difference, and I think you’ll likely end up with a sound that’s more than good enough to enjoy and live with comfortably.