Revelation

[Florestander]

I have always thought that there was not much to heed in the upgrade of cables, considering that any perceived gains would most likely result from a desire to hear a difference to justify sometimes eyewatering costs incurred when changing power cable, interconnect cables and speaker cables, an audio enthusiast version of the 'placebo effect' if you will. I considered the cable upgrade path to be full of rabbit holes and snake oil salesmen, eager to snare the unwary into spending ever greater sums on products that would not add much to the overall experience - reasoning that upgrading source components must represent a better investment on the basis that most have relatively complex circuitry and myriads of components that need to be carefully selected to achieve the desired output.
However, I recently borrowed some different speaker cables from Deco Audio following a conversation along similar lines and I humbly have to concede that my previous thoughts were wrong. What a shocker!
That is not to say that investing in quality components in a system is wrong, of course, but that my pre-conceptions as to cabling have been blown out of the water. The cables have revealed a greater musicality to my system and a punchier bass. It was already good using my previous speaker cables, but now there is a much improved and revealing soundstage. I will definitely be ordering a set of these cables for myself.
It has also now got me thinking. because whilst it has been proven to me that the speaker cables have made a vast improvement between the amplifier/speaker signal path, does this hold true for interconnect cables and power cord upgrades too? In theory, I guess that better quality interconnects between source and amp may represent a further upgrade to the signal path which may result in sonic improvements, along much the same lines as the speaker cable have demonstrated, (particularly if the same upgrades in conductor quality are the result), but I also wonder whether the same quantum gains can be had in relation to power cables. Here I assume that there will be limitations that cannot readily be easily overcome due to te quality if cables used in the power distribution network both outside of the home and within .
I would be interested to hear any opoinion on this - but no 'snake oi' @salesmen, please

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Given how fractious cable threads get, you're a brave man putting your head over the parapet!

As its your money and your life I see no need to demand double blind testing on your part, but did you try having a (hopefully sceptical) spouse change cables without you knowing which were being used, or did you try her as a guinea pig to see if she heard any difference?

 

[Al ears]

Looking on with disinterest.

 

[Gray]

Looking on with disinterest.

You know you love it 😉

 

[Gray]

...did you try having a (hopefully sceptical) spouse change cables without you knowing which were being used, or did you try her as a guinea pig to see if she heard any difference?

🔼⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️🔼

 

[Florestander]

but did you try having a (hopefully sceptical) spouse change cables without you knowing which were being used, or did you try her as a guinea pig to see if she heard any difference?

I did suggest that she listen too, yes, but not a blind test. Surprisingly, she did so and said that she could also hear improvement but was largely disinterested....

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I did suggest that she listen too, yes, but not a blind test. Surprisingly, she did so and said that she could also hear improvement but was largely disinterested....

Whilst in the strictest sense it would prove nothing, I'd be interested to see if you could tell the difference with her swapping cables. Both would need to be left in place so you couldn't tell, and she'd need to use a coin to decide which to use so it's properly random - and you'd need to leave the room when she swapped over (or pretended to).

But I suspect she'd roll her eyes if you made the request, and the result would only end up as more cable argument.

 

[Gray]

Whilst in the strictest sense it would prove nothing, I'd be interested to see if you could tell the difference with her swapping cables.

I suspect you know it would prove everything 😉

 

[Florestander]

Whilst in the strictest sense it would prove nothing, I'd be interested to see if you could tell the difference with her swapping cables. Both would need to be left in place so you couldn't tell, and she'd need to use a coin to decide which to use so it's properly random - and you'd need to leave the room when she swapped over (or pretended to).

But I suspect she'd roll her eyes if you made the request, and the result would only end up as more cable argument.

Yes, I agree that would be a more scientific method of testing. However, the replacement cable did make a clear and discernible difference. And given that I was previously super-sceptical in the first instance, I have to admit to having been wrong. It is now clear to me that in some circumstances changing loudspeaker cables can make a discernible difference to the overall sound. My original cables were of a multi strand known brand variety and whilst not of a 'budget' nature, they were not that expensive when originally purchased. (as set out in my OP, I eschewed such considerations for the reasons stated). New cable is of a high purity and relatively pricey, but again not of a budget busting price level. Damascene transformations are the future!

 

[WayneKerr]

If you changed the cable yourself then I doubt you have proved much, except to yourself.

There is one member on here who did enlist the assistance of a third-party to swap the cables, or not... his findings were interesting and a revelation too!

If you're happy with the sound and the expense then who are we to question you, be happy. Until I have heard it myself I will remain sceptical of cable revelations.

 

[plastic penguin]

I have always thought that there was not much to heed in the upgrade of cables, considering that any perceived gains would most likely result from a desire to hear a difference to justify sometimes eyewatering costs incurred when changing power cable, interconnect cables and speaker cables, an audio enthusiast version of the 'placebo effect' if you will. I considered the cable upgrade path to be full of rabbit holes and snake oil salesmen, eager to snare the unwary into spending ever greater sums on products that would not add much to the overall experience - reasoning that upgrading source components must represent a better investment on the basis that most have relatively complex circuitry and myriads of components that need to be carefully selected to achieve the desired output.
However, I recently borrowed some different speaker cables from Deco Audio following a conversation along similar lines and I humbly have to concede that my previous thoughts were wrong. What a shocker!
That is not to say that investing in quality components in a system is wrong, of course, but that my pre-conceptions as to cabling have been blown out of the water. The cables have revealed a greater musicality to my system and a punchier bass. It was already good using my previous speaker cables, but now there is a much improved and revealing soundstage. I will definitely be ordering a set of these cables for myself.
It has also now got me thinking. because whilst it has been proven to me that the speaker cables have made a vast improvement between the amplifier/speaker signal path, does this hold true for interconnect cables and power cord upgrades too? In theory, I guess that better quality interconnects between source and amp may represent a further upgrade to the signal path which may result in sonic improvements, along much the same lines as the speaker cable have demonstrated, (particularly if the same upgrades in conductor quality are the result), but I also wonder whether the same quantum gains can be had in relation to power cables. Here I assume that there will be limitations that cannot readily be easily overcome due to te quality if cables used in the power distribution network both outside of the home and within .
I would be interested to hear any opoinion on this - but no 'snake oi' @salesmen, please

What make of cables?

 

[Florestander]

What make of cables?

Atlas Hyper 2's (previous cable was a Talk product.

 

[plastic penguin]

Atlas Hyper 2's (previous cable was a Talk product.

Ah, interesting. I own the cheaper Atlas Equator.

 

[plastic penguin]

Atlas Hyper 2's (previous cable was a Talk product.

What amp and speakers are you using the cable with?

 

[Florestander]

What amp and speakers are you using the cable with?

Deco Audio do a 'special' with the Hyper 2's which is a twisted and sheathed pair, with larger plugs, and these are what I have ordered. Partnered with MF M6 encore 225 (which includes the M6 integrated amp), and Dali Rubicon 6 speakers - sounds great to me!

 

[plastic penguin]

Deco Audio do a 'special' with the Hyper 2's which is a twisted and sheathed pair, with larger plugs, and these are what I have ordered. Partnered with MF M6 encore 225 (which includes the M6 integrated amp), and Dali Rubicon 6 speakers - sounds great to me!

Interesting. This could be good guide to anyone looking for cable upgrade.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I suspect you know it would prove everything 😉

Assuming you've made your mind up!

The scenario described reminds me of something which unexpectedly happened to me - I didn't do as I am suggesting the OP did (wasn't aware how controversial cables were at the time) and no longer have the gear in question - wish I did as I'm pretty confident I would have passed the test.

All of which proves nowt. But if the OP got 8/10 it's what would have to be termed statistically significant, if still proof of nowt.

 

[abacus]

If it makes your enjoyment of your system better then that's great, sit back and listen to the music.

As to proof that cables make a difference, then you have provided none, so it stays the same in that no verifiable evince has been provided by anyone anywhere in the world that they make a difference. (So long as they are of good quality and suitable for the job)

As to scepticism, I have done many tests over the decades and heard differences, however when I did the scientifically proven level matched double blind test, all the differences disappeared.

Psychologically however, even though I know for a fact that cables of different lengths (Unless extreme) will make no difference to the sound, (A level matched double blind test proved that) then I still believe I hear a difference even though I know it is purely placebo, hence the reason I always keep the cable lengths the same. (When it comes to telling what's real and what isn't then I'm afraid biological life forms suck, hence the reason anything that can affect perception has to be removed)

Bill

 

[Florestander]

If it makes your enjoyment of your system better then that's great, sit back and listen to the music.

As to proof that cables make a difference, then you have provided none, so it stays the same in that no verifiable evince has been provided by anyone anywhere in the world that they make a difference. (So long as they are of good quality and suitable for the job)

As to scepticism, I have done many tests over the decades and heard differences, however when I did the scientifically proven level matched double blind test, all the differences disappeared.

Psychologically however, even though I know for a fact that cables of different lengths (Unless extreme) will make no difference to the sound, (A level matched double blind test proved that) then I still believe I hear a difference even though I know it is purely placebo, hence the reason I always keep the cable lengths the same. (When it comes to telling what's real and what isn't then I'm afraid biological life forms suck, hence the reason anything that can affect perception has to be removed)

Bill

I certainly agree with some of this. And in particular science can explain many things - including, for example why a dress of a particular hue can appear to be of a different hue to others, (remember the press furore about that). Humans are indeed strange biological creatures!

I would clarify though that as a lifelong sceptic as far as cable 'upgrades are concerned, I boorowed the cables and rather doubted that I would hear any discernible difference. that is far from wanting to hear any difference, I listened with an open mind. OK not evidence of a true, scientifically measurable difference, but at least to me, i was and remain pleasantly surprised, in a good way.

Of course i am not suggesting that I can offer any empirical evidence to 'prove' anything one way or another, just recounting my experience - and people cn take what they wish from that, (if anything).

On the back of this I am wondering whether any further improvements can be gained by changing interconnects and power cables. I remain hugely sceptical about the latter but again I am happy to be proved wrong, if at all possible.

 

[aversaurus]

I think up to a price point you can tell a difference after that not so much

 

[Gray]

Assuming you've made your mind up!

The scenario described reminds me of something which unexpectedly happened to me - I didn't do as I am suggesting the OP did (wasn't aware how controversial cables were at the time) and no longer have the gear in question - wish I did as I'm pretty confident I would have passed the test.

All of which proves nowt. But if the OP got 8/10 it's what would have to be termed statistically significant, if still proof of nowt.

8/10 correct guesses in truly blind testing would prove quite a bit for quite a few of us, I think 🤔

 

[aversaurus]

I've blind tested some of my cables and could only tell the difference from from very cheap to moderate price but not between makes .

 

[Florestander]

I think up to a price point you can tell a difference after that not so much

Yes, I would tend to agree with this. There is likely top be a finite level of improvements that can be made that would 'improve' the sound quality after that, it may be simply preference as to the nature of the sound (colouration?), that a particular listener prefers and it is would probably be this preference that drives upgrades from a certain point. Investing at the high end, eye watering point in the market, may prove to prove the law of diminishing returns........