Rega Brio-R and ATC SCM7 - a mismatch?

[admin_exported]

Hi,

both bits of kit have excellent reviews seperately, I'd love to hear them together in my lounge but I'm worried about the speakers' relatively low sensitivity (84 dB) and their power handling (50-300W) contrasted with the amp's moderate 50W per channel. :? What does it mean in practice? Do these speakers require a more powerful amp to realise their full potential? Thanks in advance for any comments. I'm so keen to build a reasonably priced system around them...

 

[Ajani]

I haven't tried either, though that combination is one I've been considering... Whether the Brio will have enough power will mainly depend on how loud you intend to listen to the music and the size of your room... So if you aren't looking for rock concert levels and have a modest sized room, then the 50 watts maybe more than enough power...

 

[Macspur]

Don't get too hung up on this question whether or not the ATC can be driven by a moderately powered amp.
It really is to do with the quality, not quantity, of power. I can't speak for the Rega, but my Sugden at 33W has no trouble driving the 40's.
As previously mentioned, unless you have a particularly large listening room and plan to listen to your music at very high volumes, you should be fine, but as ever, Try and demo before you buy, at home if you can.

 

[CnoEvil]

Since I have not heard this combo I can only give you my gut feeling.

Despite their price, the ATC is a high quality speaker that is likely to need lots of power to hear it at it's best. As Macspur has pointed out, a small wattage can do the job provided there's lots of current on tap; which really only happens with expensive Class A amps.

I would worry that the Brio wouldn't be doing them any favors and thus this amp would sound much better with something much easier to drive (like Rega's own speakers). I also suspect that the ATCs would sound rather lifeless unless the wick was left turned up, which would be tough on the Rega (and the neighbors).

The dealers on here will be able to verify how true my supposition is.

Cno

 

[Frank Harvey]

If you want volume, you'll need as much power as you can give the SCM11's, but it's really down to whether an amplifier can control a loudspeaker, which isn't a volume dependent quality.

It's the amplifier's job to tell the speakers what to do. It needs full control over the drive units. If an amplifier isn't in control of a speaker, bass notes become 'blurred', and you end you with a soft, dull bass that lacks punch and definition. Bass notes should be well defined, with no overhang, and kick drums should be punchy (not bassy, punchy) and should stand out from the bassline.

The more an amplifier has to work to control a speaker, the harder it works trying to give a demanding speaker all the current it needs, and the more strained it will sound. If an amplifier doesn't sound effortless, it can end up sounding compressed, lacking in dynamics, and you could end up with a hard edge to the treble, making it an uncomfortable listen. As most amplifiers are kicking out their maximum at about the 12 o'clock position on the volume dial, if you're using your amplifier between the 11 and 12 position, you could very well be demanding a little too much from your amplifier.

I've been a little too busy to try that particular combination yet vikhund, but I'll give them a good testing some time next week and post up my findings. it'll be interesting, as I've not really found any amplifier below an Audiolab 8200A that can drive them to my requirements. But one thing I will say, is that there is no amplifier under £1,000 that will make the SCM11's 'realise their full potential'. The most ideal "budget" system I would use with them would be the Audiolab 8200CDQ CD/pre and 8200P power amp.

 

[BenLaw]

I'd be very surprised if this combination didn't work. I agree that quality rather than mere quantity of power is the key, and whilst clearly this can be achieved by class A amps, I disagree that these are the only amps that can achieve this. Bear in mind that the ATCs present a very stable load for an amplifier.

As for whether you will 'realise the full potential' of the speakers, one of the advantages of the ATCs is that, perversely, the answer is 'no' Their neutral character and quality in general is such that if you improve the electronics down the line your speakers will be sufficiently revealing for you to hear it, rather than have to start your entire system from scratch.

Ultimstely only you can decide if the combo works for you, so I too would recommend you get a demo, at home if you can.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you want volume, you'll need as much power as you can give the SCM11's, but it's really down to whether an amplifier can control a loudspeaker, which isn't a volume dependent quality.

Totally agree. The point I was trying to make is that (imo), the ATCs are not the best choice for low level listening (as well as not an ideal match for the Brio).

I could be wrong though.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'd be very surprised if this combination didn't work. I agree that quality rather than mere quantity of power is the key, and whilst clearly this can be achieved by class A amps, I disagree that these are the only amps that can achieve this. Bear in mind that the ATCs present a very stable load for an amplifier.

This is also true, but I can't think of any 30W Class A/B that has enough current to do this well. I was just warning the OP that low powered amps that can drive difficult loads are usually expensive SS Class A.

 

[plastic penguin]

If you want volume, you'll need as much power as you can give the SCM11's, but it's really down to whether an amplifier can control a loudspeaker, which isn't a volume dependent quality.

Totally agree. The point I was trying to make is that (imo), the ATCs are not the best choice for low level listening (as well as not an ideal match for the Brio). I could be wrong though.

I've been waffling this about ATCs and low level problem for ages. I really think the OP would be better off with Rega speakers or PMCs.

 

[jerry klinger]

double post

 

[jerry klinger]

Usual selection of guesswork and conjecture!

I managed to buy a Brio-R on Friday - it had just been delivered to the shop, with another that was presold - and have had a happy time driving my 'difficult' Dynaudio floorstanders (4 ohms, not specially sensitive) to pretty impressive levels.

The Brio-R is simply stunning for £480 and sounds very, very sweet and punchy.

There is a proviso in the manual that when driven hard into 4ohm loads it may get hot (it does a little, but no problems). Perhaps a more fruitful path for this thread would be for an expert like Frank Harvey to explain why a speaker's impedance rating is so important in terms of amplifier stability/power.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I've been waffling this about ATCs and low level problem for ages. I really think the OP would be better off with Rega speakers or PMCs.

Higher sensitivity speakers do sound more lively, and this does help with low level listening. A lower sensitivity speaker may still have enough detail and sound good at low volumes, but they usually tend to lack 'life' in comparison to a high sensitivity loudspeaker. The DB1i isn't particularly sensitive (87dB I believe), but it seems to sound like a high sensitivity design.

Their Advanced Transmission Line design will also help with low level listening, whereas a sealed design will lack depth at low volumes. The upside to these drawbacks is that they'll come into their own at higher volumes - bass and treble won't be excessive or exaggerated, which can be the case with livelier designs.

 

[BenLaw]

For 'lively at low volume' through the use of ports and transmission lines, read 'coloured'. If that's your thing, fine.

PP, your experience of the ATCs is still just the day out at WHF?

 

[plastic penguin]

I've been waffling this about ATCs and low level problem for ages. I really think the OP would be better off with Rega speakers or PMCs.

Higher sensitivity speakers do sound more lively, and this does help with low level listening. A lower sensitivity speaker may still have enough detail and sound good at low volumes, but they usually tend to lack 'life' in comparison to a high sensitivity loudspeaker. The DB1i isn't particularly sensitive (87dB I believe), but it seems to sound like a high sensitivity design. Their Advanced Transmission Line design will also help with low level listening, whereas a sealed design will lack depth at low volumes. The upside to these drawbacks is that they'll come into their own at higher volumes - bass and treble won't be excessive or exaggerated, which can be the case with livelier designs.

Appreciate where you're coming from: If, like me, you're unable to play at wall shaking levels (young family, elderly neighbours or both) then ATCs would not be an automatic choice, regardless how neutral and transparent they are; if a speaker, however, has a slightly exuberant bottom end it'll be a huge benefit played at low levels.

I've started this subject way back: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/why-atcs

 

[CnoEvil]

There is a proviso in the manual that when driven hard into 4ohm loads it may get hot (it does a little, but no problems). Perhaps a more fruitful path for this thread would be for an expert like Frank Harvey to explain why a speaker's impedance rating is so important in terms of amplifier stability/power.

He pretty much did in post No.4.

The lower the impedance (Ohms) goes, the more current the speakers need...and cheaper amps are often found wanting.

It can be illuminating to get the number of Watts into 4 Ohms as well as 8 Ohms. If it doubles into 4 Ohms, you are looking at an amp with plenty of available current. Musical Fidelity amps are good in this regard.

 

[Anonymous]

atc 11 ,great speaker to a point , but not what i would call a true all rounder , the debate continuies ,

 

[plastic penguin]

For 'lively at low volume' through the use of ports and transmission lines, read 'coloured'. If that's your thing, fine. PP, your experience of the ATCs is still just the day out at WHF?

I like a bit of colour in my music. When a system is totally neutral, on a long stint, it becomes dry and...err... boring.

True, my experience of ATCs are fairly limited - and in a strictly technical way - I like the concept of sealed boxes. However, strictly technical doesn't neccessarily mean they can fit into every lifestyle or environment. All I've ever said about ATCs (in a half negative light) is if you need to play at low levels, there are better speakers for the job.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

both bits of kit have excellent reviews seperately, I'd love to hear them together in my lounge but I'm worried about the speakers' relatively low sensitivity (84 dB) and their power handling (50-300W) contrasted with the amp's moderate 50W per channel. :? What does it mean in practice? Do these speakers require a more powerful amp to realise their full potential? Thanks in advance for any comments. I'm so keen to build a reasonably priced system around them...

Now look and what you,ve gone and done ! :rofl:

 

[Frank Harvey]

For 'lively at low volume' through the use of ports and transmission lines, read 'coloured'. If that's your thing, fine.

I'm not coming from this from the ATC side, I'm looking at is neutrally. A sealed speaker has a high natural roll off in comparison to a ported speaker, which needs to be made up for with a larger driver. This type of speaker, when turned down to low volumes, will sound lean due to it's lack of bass depth. A ported speaker tends to have a more extended bass, which can still be heard at lower volumes. This porting also makes the speaker more efficient, which in turn is less demanding on the amplifier. Both approaches have their pros and cons.

Yes, ports can mean that the frequency response is 'coloured' to some extent, but this will be down to how well they've been implemented. I would assume it's much harder (and presumably more expensive) to come up with a well designed ported speaker than a well designed sealed one. Both have their issues to overcome, but the addition of the port adds in more complications.

 

[Anonymous]

For 'lively at low volume' through the use of ports and transmission lines, read 'coloured'. If that's your thing, fine.

I'm not coming from this from the ATC side, I'm looking at is neutrally. A sealed speaker has a high natural roll off in comparison to a ported speaker, which needs to be made up for with a larger driver. This type of speaker, when turned down to low volumes, will sound lean due to it's lack of bass depth. A ported speaker tends to have a more extended bass, which can still be heard at lower volumes. This porting also makes the speaker more efficient, which in turn is less demanding on the amplifier. Both approaches have their pros and cons. Yes, ports can mean that the frequency response is 'coloured' to some extent, but this will be down to how well they've been implemented. I would assume it's much harder (and presumably more expensive) to come up with a well designed ported speaker than a well designed sealed one. Both have their issues to overcome, but the addition of the port adds in more complications.

All ageed dave, but is,nt it down to matching the speakers [ or system] too he room they play in ?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Yes, system matching and room matching still applies - I've just tried to keep it simple and concentrate on the speaker designs themselves

 

[BenLaw]

Well, hopefully someone will post who's heard this combo together, rather than going off at a tangent. I'm presuming the OP either likes the sound of ATC or what he's read about it, so might not need the posts about low volume listening which appear on every ATC thread. Unfortunately I've not heard the combo, but even on this thread there are positive comments about the Rega's ability to drive even difficult loads.

I wouldn't rule out ATCs sounding boring - if your source and electronics were boring. Otherwise, they'll be as lively as what you partner them with. The OP should have a listen if he's unsure whether he'll like the sound.

 

[Frank Harvey]

As neither of us have heard the combo Ben, we could seek the advice of a dealer who has, and who probably has many millions of clients across the universe that are quite happily using that combination. Can you suggest anyone Ben?

 

[CnoEvil]

atc 11 ,great speaker to a point , but not what i would call a true all rounder , the debate continuies ,

Given how neutral the speaker is, it's more likely to be the amp/source (in a given set up) that isn't an all rounder....but don't let me stop you giving this thread the occasional stir, to see what happens.

 

[Anonymous]

Sacre bleu cno moi. :rofl: