Question re: preamp signal going to a intergrated in/out loop...

[luckylion100]

to those technically minded or those simply not suffering from early morning brain freeze.

Is it possible to send a dac/preamp signal to an intergrated rca in/out loop on an intergrated amp and then for that signal make its way through to active speakers?. I suppose the thing that crossing my mind is intergrated~active but surely the signal is just a signal and not being altered or amplifed in an way?

Components are Oppo HA-1 out - in/out rca loop on Emotiva A-100 intergrated. If not I'm still getting the Emotiva to use as an alternative headphone amp but will source it differently if need be.

Thanks to any enlightened soul that cares to clarify. ;-)

 

[Gray]

Looks to me like the A-100 RCA 'Output' is just a straight loop out of its RCA input.

However, it is designed to have a fixed line-level input, not a variable (volume controlled) preamp output.

I haven't had a chance to check (as it's now 4:46 a.m.and I should be going to bed) whether on the HA1 you can choose either fixed or variable output mode - I would imagine that you can, but check.

If you used a variable output from the HA-1, the headphone output of the A-100 would effectively be being controlled by 2 volume controls - the HA-1s and its own - undesirable.

So to use the A-100 correctly, you'd need to feed it with a fixed line level, then loop out of that to active speakers, which would of course then need to have their own volume control.

 

[muljao]

You can connect a preamp to line level input, it's volume control is then controlled by the preamp (o to max) which is relative to the integrated amp volume.

The output should also be ok to go to actives as it's output should be the same level as preamp input

 

[luckylion100]

Appreciate the replies and time taken to look into it.

Just sought a second opinion or two. I've since found the Emotiva user manual and it seems to suggest this set up will be ok.

 

[luckylion100]

Volume controls, four of them in my chain... HA-1 (varible or set), Emotiva A-100 (arriving soon) Minidsp DDRC-24 and AVI DM10s (remote control but blind) the bane of my life. ;-)

 

[Andrewjvt]

Volume controls, four of them in my chain... HA-1 (varible or set), Emotiva A-100 (arriving soon) Minidsp DDRC-24 and AVI DM10s (remote control but blind) the bane of my life. ;-)

Thats why i wont buy avi actives.
I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp
So you can still change things around as you wish. Also no balanced connections.

 

[lpv]

Volume controls, four of them in my chain... HA-1 (varible or set), Emotiva A-100 (arriving soon) Minidsp DDRC-24 and AVI DM10s (remote control but blind) the bane of my life. ;-)

looking at the list of boxes in your signature you're not someone who's looking for easy connectivity..

 

[insider9]

Looking forward to your thoughts. As mentioned above your chain is a little crowded. It only proves how difficult is to find a happy medium even when using actives. Theres always temptations to buy new shiny things. The saving grace is you're using quality components so it's less likely it'll have a negative impact.

One thing I'd say though is be careful as it's easy to get it wrong. With so many points you could easily get the gain structure wrong and end up amplifying noise or adding distortion to the signal path.

 

[lpv]

Volume controls, four of them in my chain... HA-1 (varible or set), Emotiva A-100 (arriving soon) Minidsp DDRC-24 and AVI DM10s (remote control but blind) the bane of my life. ;-)

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish. Also no balanced connections.

so what's that gain control doing on the back of most active monitors Andrew? is it any different than avi gain control? let's say you set on your left speaker gain at 12 o'clock and gain on your right speker at 12 o'clock - are you sure the left/ right balance is perfect? these are only potentiometers.. are these identical? or perfectly paired?

and what's more important: xlr cables or perfect channel balance?

 

[steve_1979]

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish.

With the DM10 and ADM9 speakers all you need to do is press the 'AV' button on the remote control and they effectively become a normal pair of regular 'dumb' active speakers with a fixed volume level.

That's how I use mine. They are set in 'AV mode' and I use a separate external DAC and pre-amp to control them. My AVI remote control is unused and has been packed away in a box in the spare room for about two years.

 

[lpv]

good advice Steve

 

[luckylion100]

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish.

With the DM10 and ADM9 speakers all you need to do is press the 'AV' button on the remote control and they effectively become a normal pair of regular 'dumb' active speakers with a fixed volume level.

That's how I use mine. They are set in 'AV mode' and I use a separate external DAC and pre-amp to control them. My AVI remote control is unused and has been packed away in a box in the spare room for about two years.

I never knew this. I don't think I even read the instruction book when unpacking! I'll look into this.

Good tip, thanks.

 

[luckylion100]

Looking forward to your thoughts. As mentioned above your chain is a little crowded. It only proves how difficult is to find a happy medium even when using actives. Theres always temptations to buy new shiny things. The saving grace is you're using quality components so it's less likely it'll have a negative impact.

One thing I'd say though is be careful as it's easy to get it wrong. With so many points you could easily get the gain structure wrong and end up amplifying noise or adding distortion to the signal path.

Insider your highlighted comment is exactly the dilemma I'm facing and perhaps I should have started a thread addressing this issue alone. I'm curious as to how others would set this chain up in regards to volume control. Is there a correct proceedure I could follow starting from beginning to end? Slight noise and distortion has been a problem, managable but still there... that's why I've stated in other threads it was a tricky balancing act to get right. I fear I'm doing it all wrong, basically without implimenting a proper system of setting up.

With regards to the equipment in the chain, admittedly it has grown in terms of quantity. AVI's are designed as plug into an Apple device and away you go, not this.

The Emotiva was a relatively cheap impluse/curiosity purchase and if need be because its sole purpose is headphone listening it can be kept out of the current chain but I wanted to use the Oppo's dac and Roon is connected to the Oppo via my Raspberry Pi3 and usb.

I love the sound of the AVI DM10's (with a single sub) but my mind is starting to consider other options more on the bare bones/pro side of things so Andrews and your own (Insider) posts here and elsewhere regarding how your systems are potentially shaping up is of great interest. IPV always has interesting opinions and was an important factor in my initial decision to go active...

 

[luckylion100]

I went over to the Dark Side to cut down on the number of boxes... crazy! ;-)

Just hit the AV button on the remote and the slight hiss (when ears are up next to the drivers) that has been secretly driving me mad has totally gone. On the Oppo I need to turn that volume dial quite a lot higher to achieve similar volume levels I previously enjoyed. Not a problem at all.

 

[insider9]

Just hit the AV button on the remote and the slight hiss (when ears are up next to the drivers) that has been secretly driving me mad has totally gone. On the Oppo I need to turn that volume dial quite a lot higher to achieve similar volume levels I previously enjoyed. Not a problem at all.

Great to hear this. Superb tip from Steve!

Gain structure is the thing most people don't even consider. Till you get to analogue all you can do is either cause ditial clipping (unlikely) or atttenuate too much (possibly). First scenario is easy to sort out. In second scenario were you to do this once you amplified signal in analogue domain you would also amplify a lot of unwanted noise. So it's important to arrive at this point in your chain as close to 0db as possible. I'd then bypass all volume pots but the one you want to use (if at all possible). Looks like with the tip from Steve you're more or less there till you get the Emotiva. With Oppo controlling the volume...? At least how I understand it.

I'm not sure how you're going to use Emotiva in the chain. I'm not sure why you actually need it and what purpose it will serve With that in mind at least guessing how you'd use it I'd probably set the Oppo to fixed output to Emotiva and control volume from there.

 

[luckylion100]

What you really want is two complately separate unlinked systems. One for the headphones and one for speakers.

System 1: DAC > pre-amp > headphone amp > headphones.

System 2: Source > DM10 speakers (or use the 'AV mode' if you want to use a seperate DAC and pre-amp with the speakers)

K.I.S.S.

Oppo Sonica may be on a future shopping list then.

 

[luckylion100]

"I'm not sure how you're going to use Emotiva in the chain. I'm not sure why you actually need it and what purpose it will serve Smile With that in mind at least guessing how you'd use it I'd probably set the Oppo to fixed output to Emotiva and control volume from there."

I don't need it, that's the simple truth. A curiosity buy pure and simple. I've a niggling suspicion that the Oppo HA-1 is slightly underpowered. My Oppo PM2's are relatively easy to drive and obviously meant to be an ideal match for the HA-1 but I intend to purchase more headphones that are definitely much harder to drive in the future. It is also intended as an alternative and comparision to the Oppo perhaps meaning the Oppo can be sold and I go in an altogether different direction. The Emotiva price grabbed my attention and the brand has interested me for a while and this provides a relatively cheap introduction to the brand. If all else fails my daughter can take it away with her when she goes to university...

In terms of intregrating it into the system I'm undecided. It may have to be stand alone, solely serving headphones with another source.

Or maybe I was just bored and it's too easy to press 'Add to Basket' ;-)

 

[steve_1979]

Just hit the AV button on the remote and the slight hiss (when ears are up next to the drivers) that has been secretly driving me mad has totally gone. On the Oppo I need to turn that volume dial quite a lot higher to achieve similar volume levels I previously enjoyed. Not a problem at all.

I'm glad to hear you have sorted the hiss problem. *i-m_so_happy*

I went over to the Dark Side to cut down on the number of boxes... crazy! ;-)

System 1a: Oppo HA1 > Oppo PM2

System 1b: Oppo HA1 > Emotiva > Various different headphones

System 2: Source > DM10

 

[steve_1979]

What you really want is two completely separate unlinked systems. One for the headphones and one for speakers.

System 1: DAC > headphone amp > headphones.

System 2: Source > DM10 speakers (or use the 'AV mode' if you want to use a seperate DAC and pre-amp with the speakers)

K.I.S.S.

 

[insider9]

Good headphone amp is key to running good headfi. I know many buy DAC + headphone amp combos but so often a quality stand alone amp can make a huge difference. Emotiva looks a great buy.

 

[steve_1979]

Good headphone amp is key to running good headfi. I know many buy DAC + headphone amp combos but so often a quality stand alone amp can make a huge difference. Emotiva looks a great buy.

+1

The amp will make far more diffference than the DAC and that Emotiva looks like it should be a cracker.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Volume controls, four of them in my chain... HA-1 (varible or set), Emotiva A-100 (arriving soon) Minidsp DDRC-24 and AVI DM10s (remote control but blind) the bane of my life. ;-)

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish. Also no balanced connections.

so what's that gain control doing on the back of most active monitors Andrew? is it any different than avi gain control? let's say you set on your left speaker gain at 12 o'clock and gain on your right speker at 12 o'clock - are you sure the left/ right balance is perfect? these are only potentiometers.. are these identical? or perfectly paired? 

and what's more important: xlr cables or perfect channel balance?

 

Channel balance does not even come into it.
I dont like the preamp built into the speaker design.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish.

With the DM10 and ADM9 speakers all you need to do is press the 'AV' button on the remote control and they effectively become a normal pair of regular 'dumb' active speakers with a fixed volume level.

That's how I use mine. They are set in 'AV mode' and I use a separate external DAC and pre-amp to control them. My AVI remote control is unused and has been packed away in a box in the spare room for about two years.

Thats good and all but another thing i dont like is the speaker is useless without the remote control.

 

[lpv]

Volume controls, four of them in my chain... HA-1 (varible or set), Emotiva A-100 (arriving soon) Minidsp DDRC-24 and AVI DM10s (remote control but blind) the bane of my life. ;-)

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish. Also no balanced connections.

so what's that gain control doing on the back of most active monitors Andrew? is it any different than avi gain control? let's say you set on your left speaker gain at 12 o'clock and gain on your right speker at 12 o'clock - are you sure the left/ right balance is perfect? these are only potentiometers.. are these identical? or perfectly paired?

and what's more important: xlr cables or perfect channel balance?

Channel balance does not even come into it. I dont like the preamp built into the speaker design.

sorry Andrew.. I have another version of my post, here it is:

so what's that gain control doing on the back of most active monitors Andrew? is it any different than avi gain control?

it is rethorical question Andrew..

obviously, avi gain control and gain control of any other active monitors is same thing with one little difference.. on yours jbl lsr's when you have gain knob set on left speaker at 12 o'clock and gain on your right speaker at 12 o'clock - are you sure the left/ right balance/ gain/ volume is perfect/ on the same level? these are only potentiometers.. are these identical? or perfectly paired?

on avi's there are no separate gain knobs but digitally controlled analogue preamp ( read: gain control) so channel tracking is spot on.

 

[lpv]

Thats why i wont buy avi actives. I prefer a straight forward active without built in preamp So you can still change things around as you wish.

With the DM10 and ADM9 speakers all you need to do is press the 'AV' button on the remote control and they effectively become a normal pair of regular 'dumb' active speakers with a fixed volume level.

That's how I use mine. They are set in 'AV mode' and I use a separate external DAC and pre-amp to control them. My AVI remote control is unused and has been packed away in a box in the spare room for about two years.

Thats good and all but another thing i dont like is the speaker is useless without the remote control.

what Andrew is trying to say here is: on one of the comparissions I forgot to take Avi remote control and couldn't do anything with the Avi's ( no change of volume or source).. Steve advice is: once you hit AV on Avi remote you can bin the Avi remote and use them as any other active monitor. when AV is selected that option is remembered forever and you have your 'straight actives'