Question about upgrading amplifier

[hifiSeattle]

Newbie here, just getting into hifi for the most part. About 8 months ago I got a fairly entry-level setup with PSB Imagine XB bookshelf speakers, a Marantz NR1506 receiver, and a SVS SB1000 subwoofer. I have enjoyed the heck out of this setup but I am now craving more. I am about 80% music 20% movies, with my real priority being musical accuracy first.
My plan is to purchase Kef LS50 as a speaker upgrade (I've heard them and loved how they sound, but I don't know what amp it was), which I obviously need a better amp for. I'm going to use the preouts on my receiver into the amp, so I can still use my receiver for center/sub/surrounds on occasion. I'm pretty sure I've read every single thread on the internet about LS50 amp pairings, and I've learned a lot in the process, but now I feel like I'm left with a ton of valid yet different choices. Some of the main brands and models I have been looking at are MF M3si, Creek 50a and 100a, Rega elex-r. My budget is about $2200 USD for an amp maximum. Also, for some reason I'm not seeing Arcam (many recommendations for the A19/38) available in the U.S so I'm not currently factoring that in as an option. The others I can buy in the U.S but I can't demo any really, so I'm basing this mostly off research. I'm leaning towards the MF M3si right now, because the combination of price, power, build quality, and brand reputation seem very good to me. The Creek 100a seems awesome but I haven't seen much about it paired with the LS50, and I've seen some mentions of bad customer service and hit or miss quality control. Also, I haven't been able to find any info whatsoever on what power output the M3si has at 4ohms. To sum up this long-winded post, I'm looking for a high-quality well built amp that I can use with these speakers and not have to upgrade for a long time. I mostly listen to classic rock, jazz/pop, and hip hop. Some of my favorites are Michael Jackson, Steely Dan, Earth wind and fire, the eagles, pink floyd. I like an accurate but also fairly punchy and powerful kind of sound. Any suggestions?

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi. First of all, before purchasing anything, I strongly suggest auditioning for yourself and, more importantly, try to get an audition in your own home. The room (and speaker positioning) has a tremendous influence on the way they sound. For instance, I adored PMC DB1 gold in the store, but in my space they sounded nothing like that. Your dealer might offer the option of leaving a deposit just to be able to take them home, and give you your money back when you return them. Also, the KEFs need a little space to breathe, and to be on stands.

Secondly, make sure your Marantz pre-outs can be set to line level and they don't just have the option of being volume controlled (which means you might be better off getting a power amplifier instead of an integrated).

Thirdly, the LS50 are said to sometimes sound bright, so you might want a fuller sounding amp. When I auditioned the Creek 50a, it sounded pretty thin, but reviews on the 100a say it sound very full-bodied, so it might be a great option for you, just like the Musical Fidelity m3si. Other suggestions are Arcam A29 (the older A38 can sound too sharp at times, for me at least). If you don't mind second hand, Naim Nait XS (first gen, not the second one) can also be a great option.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1653360097]

Well like you i started off with a love for 5.1 surround sound, but also loved my music, at the time thought stereo was good enough on the AVR, a sure step up from what i was used to, only ever had the all one systems to compare with, anyway as the years go buy you learn things and before you know it you are hooked on the upgrade path after hearing what you are missing music wise as a result of using the AVR as an all in one solution, so whilst I’m not about to advise you on a pacific amp, but in order to save you some money, and get a good insight as to what two options i think might help you best.

Option one is to go down the path of a power amp, this makes the most sense as you will have better power for the money over integrated, it would give you a solid platform to build around in regards to future upgrades, your AVR will act as your Pre Amp (assuming it has Pre Outs) and will just fit in nicely with no drama.

If you buy integrated then be sure it has AV mode, or power amp mode, then you won’t have to worry about the volume as it can be controlled via the AVR, still a good option, but no match for a power amp, and although you might think you dont need that power, it will still make a big difference controlling speakers much better, more so at lower volume too, and better overall balance imo, and thats all it is.

Second option would be to buy a premium AVR like Cambridge, Arcam and Athem, as these brands do music very well too, compared to all the budget brands out there, i only recommend the three above as these are all amps i have owned and listened too, they not cheap, but could turn out cheaper than separate AVR, POWER AMP combo, getting a demo of both options would be the smart thing to do, and let you ears decide what’s the best way forward, opinions are ok, but they no match for you own ears, don’t be swayed by them, there is no holy grail, good luck

P.S would not worry to much about ohms ratings, Power output: 76 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms (19dBW) on the M3i is the only one that matters, it will be cable of driving most speaker including the ones you want.

 

[hifiSeattle]

thanks for your reply. Regarding the m3si, that's kind of what I figured. It gets great reviews and gets reccomended for the LS50s pretty often. I was just finding it odd that they had no mention of the power at 4ohm. I'm learning that there are many other qualities besides simple power per channel, so I guess how can I quantify the M3si compared to other amps I'm looking at in a similar price range?

 

[hifiSeattle]

Thanks for your answer. Both you and another answer offer that a power amp may be a good option as opposed to an integrated. I've considered this, but I'm wondering how the sound quality will be using the Marantz as a pre amp. I know once I get into the price range of the Kefs that the speakers are a lot more sensitive to various components, so I just want to make sure I don't have any significant weak links.

 

[jmjones]

In theory, the power amp should be the most cost effective path, but my advice would be get a good dealer, a home demo, and try options. I have been surprised over the years by a number of potential upgrades that made little difference. I avoided some costly mistakes by using home demos.

Another thought (and I know I'm contradicting myself here) is buy a second hand power amp. The Kefs are noted for working better with ample power. You could always sell the amp if it didn't work out.

 

[rainsoothe]

The suggestion of a better reciever is also a good one - as in Arcam Solo Movie.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1653360097]

you need to research better, anyway to put you out of your misery,

The M3i delivers 76 watts per channel into 8ohms and 137 watts into 4ohms. This means the M3i will can drive a wide range of speakers, even power-hungry models.

 

[hifiSeattle]

you need to research better, anyway to put you out of your misery,

The M3i delivers 76 watts per channel into 8ohms and 137 watts into 4ohms. This means the M3i will can drive a wide range of speakers, even power-hungry models.

Can you include a link? I swear to you I spent hours scouring the internet and found nothing.

 

[Blackdawn]

The Arcam A39 has been discounted online, so similar price to MF3Si now so should probably be on the list. Any amp with a slightly warmer sound maybe be good with the KEF speakers, e.g. Yamaha A-S1100, Arcam 39, NAD C368.

 

[drummerman]

I had a look (listen) to some L50 YouTube videos and there was one with a Nait 5i which sounded very nice.

I would imagine something along the lines of an XS would be even better.

 

[Blackdawn]

It should be fairly easy to audition the MF, Arcam, Yamaha and Naim suggested with the Kefs

 

[Blackdawn]

By the way the MF3i and MF3Si have different power outputs. I think the newer Si model is closer to 85w at 8 Ohms. MF don't usually give their power outputs in 4 Ohms but expect it to be quite high.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1653360097]

even my grand daughter could have found this lol

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/support/discontinued-products/m3i

 

[rainsoothe]

It should be fairly easy to audition the MF, Arcam, Yamaha and Naim suggested with the Kefs

Ye, not the first gen XS or the MF, unless there's some dealers that got clients who did buyback.

 

[ErwinC]

Another solution is to buy the KEF LS50 wireless. It is imo better than the passive LS50 combined with whatever amplifier. I compared it with the passive LS50 combined with the MF Encore 225 (same amp as MF M6si) and found the wireless LS50 better in all areas.

 

[hifiSeattle]

even my grand daughter could have found this lol

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/support/discontinued-products/m3i

This isn't the same product, this is the discontinued older version. However, considering they are very similar, I assume the power jump from 8 to 4 ohms would be similar. Like I said, I haven't found the true 4 ohm spec for the m3si anywhere, so I would be pretty impressed if someone found it. I found a review for the m5si from hifinews.co.uk where they did a detailed test, but I couldn't find the same for the m3si.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Another solution is to buy the KEF LS50 wireless. It is imo better than the passive LS50 combined with whatever amplifier. I compared it with the passive LS50 combined with the MF Encore 225 (same amp as MF M6si) and found the wireless LS50 better in all areas.

No doubt thats 100% true(as ive not yet heard the active ls50s) and its good advice

But many wont like it as it just doesnt feel right to them.
Thats why people in the pro music industry laugh at 'audiophille'

I do think that you need to be fully convinced in your head to take the leap of faith to actives.

 

[Al ears]

even my grand daughter could have found this lol

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/support/discontinued-products/m3i

This isn't the same product, this is the discontinued older version. However, considering they are very similar, I assume the power jump from 8 to 4 ohms would be similar. Like I said, I haven't found the true 4 ohm spec for the m3si anywhere, so I would be pretty impressed if someone found it. I found a review for the m5si from hifinews.co.uk where they did a detailed test, but I couldn't find the same for the m3si.

Perhaps the easiest route would be to contact the manufacturer.....

 

[kikiso]

I started off by using a good quality integrated (Rega) to drive my CM8 front speakers but as it was only stereo I bought a used 3 channel Arcam P25, (be careful as only some P25s are 3 channel). The performance was amazing and I'm pretty sure it's able to drive the Kefs really well. I ended up selling my Rega and ended up with a much improved system both from an audio point of view but operationally as well.

 

[ErwinC]

I do think that you need to be fully convinced in your head to take the leap of faith to actives.

I tried the active LS50 at home and was convinced without a doubt. *biggrin*

 

[avole]

Another solution is to buy the KEF LS50 wireless. It is imo better than the passive LS50 combined with whatever amplifier. I compared it with the passive LS50 combined with the MF Encore 225 (same amp as MF M6si) and found the wireless LS50 better in all areas.

No doubt thats 100% true(as ive not yet heard the active ls50s) and its good advice

But many wont like it as it just doesnt feel right to them. Thats why people in the pro music industry laugh at 'audiophille'

I do think that you need to be fully convinced in your head to take the leap of faith to actives.

You think it's 100% true because you haven't heard them? Where's the logic in that? That's like me saying the RS Clio Trophy is the best small car on the market because I haven't driven one!

Seriously, there's no leap of faith into active or passive, that's an AVI marketing gag, the decision is whether to go minimalist/lifestyle, i.e. fewer boxes, or not. In any case, as the KEFs are wifi enabled, that's the real choice.

 

[tonky]

I do think that you need to be fully convinced in your head to take the leap of faith to actives.

I tried the active LS50 at home and was convinced without a doubt. *biggrin*

If that's the case most of the variables in hifi are "a leap of faith!" - the thing to do is listen - and whatever sound you prefer you choose. Anyone who chooses expensive hifi without listening to alternatives deserves what they get.

It's not about "foo" or choosing "the dark side" - It's about listening.

It's hard to comment on the active LS50 speakers without having listened and compared. ErwinC has done - and made his choice. It certainly is a very interesting and I welcome his viewpoint on this interesting topic . I have heard the passive LS50 speakers. I was very impressed. - Would love to hear the active version - but unlike Andrewjvt I wouldn't need to be "convinced in my head to take the leap of faith to actives" . You have to "100%" listen to believe if it's "100%" true! - not just read it somewhere else! Sometimes you are just too zealous in this active/passive thing. It's just another variable.

regards tonky

 

[Andrewjvt]

Another solution is to buy the KEF LS50 wireless. It is imo better than the passive LS50 combined with whatever amplifier. I compared it with the passive LS50 combined with the MF Encore 225 (same amp as MF M6si) and found the wireless LS50 better in all areas.

No doubt thats 100% true(as ive not yet heard the active ls50s) and its good advice

But many wont like it as it just doesnt feel right to them. Thats why people in the pro music industry laugh at 'audiophille'

I do think that you need to be fully convinced in your head to take the leap of faith to actives.

You think it's 100% true because you haven't heard them? Where's the logic in that? That's like me saying the RS Clio Trophy is the best small car on the market because I haven't driven one!

Seriously, there's no leap of faith into active or passive, that's an AVI marketing gag, the decision is whether to go minimalist/lifestyle, i.e. fewer boxes, or not. In any case, as the KEFs are wifi enabled, that's the real choice.

Stop looking for glory
Get help before its too late for you.

 

[tonky]

the lord for this leap of faith!