Punch

[ntune]

So, which factors affects the *punchness of the bass in which priority? Does 12" and 15" woofer have significant difference? Which is more important bass-wise: High RMS or high peak power from the amplifier? Can 40W RMS produce any punch at all with 12" high-sensitivity woofer? What's (pre)amplifiers influence to bass?

* feel the hard punch/kick in the body

 

[Anonymous]

So, which factors affects the *punchness of the bass in which priority? Does 12" and 15" woofer have significant difference? Which is more important bass-wise: High RMS or high peak power from the amplifier? Can 40W RMS produce any punch at all with 12" high-sensitivity woofer? What's (pre)amplifiers influence to bass?

* feel the hard punch/kick in the body

Punchiness is determined mainly by your amplifier and speaker combination, primarily an amplifier which has either a high current rating, or is Class-A. Speaker-wise, you don't even need drivers that large to feel punch. Rib-moving punch can be felt with even small standmounts, synergy is key here.

As an example, when I tested a pair of B&W 601 S3's I got in; I used my Musical Fidelity A370 power amp. They were incredibly punchy, because the amp is an absolute powerhouse.

Pre-amplifier wont do much to the bass, it's mainy down to your pwoer amp and speakers.

 

[lindsayt]

12" or 15"?

Depends on the execution.

I have a pair of speakers with two 12" bass units per channel in a large sealed box and a pair with a single 15" bass unit per channel in a large ported box. The speakers with the 12" bass units are about 93db/2.83v/1m efficient compared to 97db efficient for the 15". Neither of them need a lot of power to produce loud bass.

In terms of bass quality, I prefer the speakers with the 12" units. Crisper, more tuneful, more textured, more foot-tapping. The 15" ported speakers have a softer edge to percussive transients.

In my experience, the speakers are the most important component for getting punchy, crisp, kick-in-the-chest, bouncy, toe-tapping, tuneful bass. However, it is possible to compromise the quality of the bass if you have components higher up the chain with a woolly bass. If you have a decent digital source, with solid state amplification you should be fine as long as the speakers are up to it.

Is 40 watts enough - either RMS or peak? Depends on the speakers. For amp friendly speakers like mine, 40 watts is complete overkill. 1 watt is enough for loud punchy bass from them. For amplifier unfriendly speakers, you may well be looking at amps with more than 40 watts for best results.

 

[busb]

It does indeed depend. My Totem's only have 4" bass drivers but pack a punch well above their weight.

Regards

 

[MajorFubar]

In 1988 I bought a pair of Wharfedale Diamond IIs which had bass drivers about the same size as my previous speakers' midrange units, yet the quality of their bass, and their ability to whack you in the chest, was on a different level to that of the huge three-way floor-standers they replaced. I'm obviously not saying huge woofers are crap, but size most certainly is not everything, nor is it a guarantee of deep, powerful bass. Quality design is where it's at, as is making sure they're positioned appropriately and sturdily in a sympathetic room, and connected to an amp with some balls.

 

[lindsayt]

Small bass cones - 7" or smaller - are a guarantee of lack of bass extension or bass quality or bass impact. Unless multiple units are used with equalisation.

That is: lack of bass extension / quality / impact when compared to decent large cones in a large sealed box.

It's just the basic physics of moving and controlling air at those frequencies.

 

[Anonymous]

Small bass cones - 7" or smaller - are a guarantee of lack of bass extension or bass quality or bass impact. Unless multiple units are used with equalisation.

I think this is a little bit misleading. In comparison you may well lose a little yes, but in no way is it a guarantee of a lack of those things. Look at the single-woofered ProAc and Totem speakers, there is no way anyone could complain about a lack of punch with those. Infact, the frequency response of the single woofered Response and Studio speakers is noted as being deceptively brilliant.

I'm not sure if you've heard either of those speakers, but have a listen to say... the D28's. Play the Gladiator soundtrack through them and tell anyone there is a lack of anything bass-wise. It loses nothing to any larger speaker at a similar price tag, IMO. The bass impact is particularily notable on "The Battle" around the 5-6 minute mark (from experience with D28's that is, I imagine Studio 130's to not be too far behind).

 

[ntune]

Which is better: Cerwin-vega VE-15F or XLS-28 + 12" subwoofer?

It's comprasion between 15" woofer vs 2x8" woofer + 12" subwoofer.

 

[Anonymous]

Which is better: Cerwin-vega VE-15F or XLS-28 + 12" subwoofer?

It's comprasion between 15" woofer vs 2x8" woofer + 12" subwoofer.

I'd personally find somewhere that accepts returns and try the XLS-28 alone. If you feel you need a lot more bass, get the subwoofer. Be sure to try all possible speaker positions before deciding though, better to move a speaker a few inches than outlay hundreds of pounds.

What amplifier will you be using?

 

[ID.]

Ooh, but what about slam? Or even rumble?

You sure it isn't slam you want?

So is it punch, slam, rumble in decending order of where in the bass range they lie? (I'm sure there was a totally inconclusive thread on this in the not too distant past).

 

[ntune]

Well, I want the same effect as in disco: you feel the beat in your chest. I'm not sure which is correct term to descripe that. You know, the kick (not the bass) sound used in electronic music. Beat?

Anyway, I will probably use NAD C326BEE. It has only 50W RMS, but it have preouts. It's said to be best you can get for that money. So, I thought buying Behringer A500 later, if 50W isn't enough. It has 300 Watts in 4 Ohms per channel. XLS-28 is 6 Ohms. Is the Behringer enough for those?

 

[busb]

Small bass cones - 7" or smaller - are a guarantee of lack of bass extension or bass quality or bass impact. Unless multiple units are used with equalisation.

That is: lack of bass extension / quality / impact when compared to decent large cones in a large sealed box.

It's just the basic physics of moving and controlling air at those frequencies.

Basic physics tells us that most audio equipment should sound very similar. That being the case, all we need to do is select stuff on specification, looks & build quality. Basic physics also tells us that nearly all ICs should sound indentical given a certain level of build quality. I wish buying audio gear was that simple - I wouldn't then have to rely on what my own ears tell me or should that be what I think my ears tell me?

 

[lindsayt]

On the contrary.

Basic physics tells us that there should be quite easily audible differences between hi-fi components.

I think that basic physics can be useful in helping to select hi-fi. And that it can be useful for explaining why different components sound different. But, at the end of the day, by far the best way to pick which components to buy is to listen to them and keep the ones that you like best.

I didn't like the Totem Arros when I heard them at a bake-off. I thought they were compressed and had a tendency to bury bass guitars and kick drums in the mix.

It's all relative. It's all down to what you're used to.

If all you've ever driven is family hatchbacks you might think the Ford Focus is a great car. If you've been tearing round Le Mans in a Porsche 917 and then stepped into a Focus, you'd find it rather underwhelming.

You can get better bass than what you get in a disco / nightclub with a home hi-fi system. The same amount of kick, but better clarity, better definition. A 50 watt NAD into monster speakers would get you there. A 1kw monster amp into baby speakers won't.

 

[busb]

I live in a flat that has a neighbour's living room below. I worry enough where the bass goes to! The Arro's have adequate bass that's pretty tight but they do need decent amplification. Their greatest strength is both imaging & timing, they also have good top-end. Compressed? My Celestion SL6's were but not the Totem's! If bass is your thing, forget the Arro's.

I 1st heard a pair of Arro's about 3yrs ago in AudioT, Reading. They were on the end of a Naim based system. I was absolutely stunned by their bass & imaging. I heard a pair in Eton 3 months ago - they sounded absolutely terrible. Bad enough to have serious doubts regarding buying a pair. AudioT in Camberley had an ex-demo pair that I bought a week later having taken my amp along for a listen. They were run in long ago so can't comment how they sound from new. Totem do warn purchasers that they need 100hrs before they sing.

As for equipment specs, can you tell that one amplifier will be slightly brighter than another from reading them? Does measuring distortion at 1kHz into an 8Ohm resistive load tell us anything? Most valve based equipment does not measure that well but many people love their sound. I would also contend that good measured channel separation ain't going to say much about the perceived sound-stage. When it comes to evaluating sound, I contend that our ears are well ahead of current test methodology that has far more difficulty with dynamically changing aspects of SQ. We can hear subtle relative changes but not absolute values as can test equipment.

What is very difficult for people is remembering the same piece of music consecutively heard. Picture quality is far easier to evaluate: you can focus on one TV image then the one next to it & consistently see the difference. Listening to one amplifier than another a minute later is very error prone IMO. Double blind testing has its uses but is not the be-all, end-all some people think it is. I compared a borrowed amplifier to a Roksan Caspian M2 last weekend in a shop where the other equipment was unfamiliar. The exercise wasn't completely pointless but can take hours to get a handle on differences & the process is very tiring. As for differences in ICs, I've found them to be very, very subtle indeed & speaker cables less so. What I tend to do is to concentrate on only one aspect of a repeated piece of music such as one particular instrument or voice at a time - far less confusing!

Regards

 

[MajorFubar]

Going back to the o/p's question, to deliver the 'punch' that you feel in your chest from modern dance music in clubs, a speaker doesn't have to go particularly low. Pretty much all of it is from 60-120Hz. So with a source and an amp which can deliver the goods, you'll feel that oomph in your chest from little more than a small pair of bookshelf speakers, so long as they're positioned well in a good room.

Symphonic and accoustic music is a different matter though.

 

[Anonymous]

A 50 watt NAD into monster speakers would get you there. A 1kw monster amp into baby speakers won't.

What's a 'baby speaker'?

 

[lindsayt]

What's a 'baby speaker'?

Something with a single 6" or smaller mid-bass cone per channel.

Toddler speakers have 7" cones.

 

[busb]

I must go & change my Arro's nappies

On a more serious note, I used to work in the service dept of HP. There was a guy who listened to Reggae almost exclusively. He asserted that domestic HiFi speakers weren't man enough to handle the bass! My criteria is to reproduce the sound of acoustic instruments faithfully so fairly modest levels of bass are fine for me which proably pleases my neighbours. Other people have different but equally valid priorities.

The most awesome bottom end I heard was 20ft away from the rig at a Lovebox do when Goldfrapp were playing - made me realise that I would need a PA system with some serious power to reproduce that trouser flapping levels of bass!

 

[lindsayt]

Or horn loaded speakers with 30" bass cones powered by an 8 watt SET amplifier would give you 110dbs of relatively undistorted bass down to 18hz...

Or large sealed box speakers with quad 12" bass cones powered by a 40 watt amp could give you 110dbs of relatively undistorted bass down to 35hz.

 

[MajorFubar]

I've read quite a few of your posts on dfferent threads and you really do have a 'thing' about only big woofers can deliver great bass.

It's really not that simply defined.

I would love to listen to your system to hear what you would call great bass.

 

[Anonymous]

I've read quite a few of your posts on dfferent threads and you really do have a 'thing' about only big woofers can deliver great bass.

It's really not that simply defined.

I would love to listen to your system to hear what you would call great bass.

Have to agree. I don't think he has heard a pair of GS10's or similar in a normal sized living room. Or anything with that driver configuration. Power a pair of those with a "1KW monster amp", I'm thinking MF Titan, yes, you'll more than feel the bass.

15" drivers may be necessary for a club, but for a home living room, anything above 5" will be sufficient, speaking form experience.