Projectors

[drummerman]

When I saw a demonstration of a good quality projector system I was impressed. I can't remember the model but was told it costed 5k. In the windowless, dark dem room ratatouille looked stunning, truly cinema like. Super sharp and vivid with very good brightness and contrast. Superb blacks, white whites. No motion artefacts I could see on a screen size approx. 3 x 2 meters.

It made the 60" pioneer Kuro hanging outside in the shop are look positively small, never mind the 50" one I just bought.

My question is the following; Are projectors such as the Panasonic PTAX200E (£900) or the InFocus IN80 (£1300now a viable alternative to normal TV sets as an every day/all day display? The Shop owner told me that I could expect perhaps around 80% of the 5k projectors performance with the above mentioned InFocus. But he did also demonstrate the importance of darkness, opening the door and letting some ambient light in made a small difference.

Bearing in mind the projected picture was huge, how would a smaller 60" or so image on a good pull down screen fare in a normal living room in daylight or with ambient lighting with one of the two projectors I've mentioned? Are they an alternative to a set like the Kuro when used with SKY HD or SD?

Thank you.

 

[coolaboola]

I have a projector in my house over a T.V.I have the panasonic ptax100e which is the one before the 200e minus an extra hdmi input and game mode.I have no ugly flat screen hanging on my chimney breast ,just a screen that pulls down from a very neatly contained unit.

I have it hooked up to a ps3 and freesat for bbc hd and occasional itv hd.Champions league nights rock.I have a 19inch supermarket job for sky news or whatever but rarely watch normal sd tv anyway.What I dont spend on sky or ntl subscriptions I spend on movies.ie and if its good tv worth watching I buy the boxset eg. 24,sopranos,west wing etc anyway.

It really works for me.I have big screen for viewing as the director intended and no monthly running cost .(apart from movies.ie @ ?18.99 per month unlimited movies inc bluray).

Its dark by the time I get home from work anyway so the curtains are closed.I rarely get to settle into watching anything till later anyway.My pj has a daytime setting which is fine with a sidelight on or with light pollution from the kitchen if someone is pottering about.I've been much more selective in what i watch,and really enjoy what I do watch.If there is nothing to watch I listen to music.

It wont work for everyone but after a little adapting of my viewing habit(ie not trolling thru stations watching one hit wonders ballroom dance in a jungle) I would never go back.

 

[Clare Newsome]

As i've previously noted, I haven't had a TV for more than 4 years now - projector all the way. And I use it in a standard living room, complete with windows without any special blinds/curtains etc.

I use both the settings on my projector (currently InFocus IN83 - but I have used the IN76 and LCD projectors like the Panasonics happily as well) plus a high-gain screen to allow viewing in everything from pitch black to summer-afternoon light.

Yes, a high-gain screen means you lose some contrast in ultra-dark screens, but it's easier to live with if you can't/don't want to black out your room.

And I totally agree with Coolaboola - it makes TV/movies/sport/gaming an event, and you're far less likely to lazily browse: instead you're choosing what to be wowed with next.

 

[JoelSim]

I won a portable telly in 1989 when I was picked out of a prize draw for opening a student bank account. Still got it in the loft. Impressive huh?

Its 14" screen is a match for anything around today, and films look better than at the cinema. In my loft, it's a real event watching a movie, especially if I plug the TV in to the power socket.

Likewise the speakers on the telly are incredible, much better than those KEF things made from moulded alloys.

 

[Anonymous]

DM, the important thing to look at is the matching of the output of your projector to the performance of the screen material, all within your environment.

If you have an ambient light issue, it may be worth taking a look at a grey screen as these tend to be more resistant to it. I'd try and shoot for one with unity gain as the higher the gain, directivity and viewing angle can become an issue.

There are some good calculators out on the net that with allow you to play with all the variables so you can get a feel of what's likely to happen.

hth
Gary

 

[Clare Newsome]

JoelSim:
I won a portable telly in 1989 when I was picked out of a prize draw for opening a student bank account. Still got it in the loft. Impressive huh?

Its 14" screen is a match for anything around today, and films look better than at the cinema. In my loft, it's a real event watching a movie, especially if I plug the TV in to the power socket.

Likewise the speakers on the telly are incredible, much better than those KEF things made from moulded alloys.

Your hilarity knows no bounds....

 

[John Duncan]

?

 

[Clare Newsome]

All greek to me....

Anyhow, back on topic, I was inspired to blog on the subject

 

[John Duncan]

I didn't realise you lived above The Wharf...

 

[matengawhat]

easily my best purchase in years - bought it thinking will just use it for odd movie and gaming here and there but after a month it has became the norm - in my opinion they have less flaws when it comes to picture than both lcd and plasmas - i just have normal venition blinds and my screen actually covers my window when in use helping to make it dark - def better in the dark but can be watched with quite a bit of light especially if you buy a bright projector - jusy knock it up a notch or two, i also don't over stretch the picture - runs at a constant 84 inches on a screen

 

[Anonymous]

Re Projectors,

A lesson for the learning?

I bought my H56 in 2004 (I think) and in the first year watched TV via Sky SD. A few weeks before Christmas 2005 the bulb became quite dim and and, what I thought was the fan, started making quite a lot of noise. Optoma were very efficient in arranging its collection, replacing the colour wheel under warranty and fitting a new lamp at a cost of £340.00. So I bought a brilliant MIRAI 32" for £400 for general TV and now only watch special progs via the H56.

My system is a fully installed Home Cinema, (complete with curtains) using a Denon AVR 3803 that feeds all the various players up to the H56 at Component level and have been more than happy with the quality. Three weeks ago I succumbed to Sky's £75 + £30 standard installation deal for Sky+ HD box which has turned out to be a nightmare as the Samsung box does not have Component out and the H56' DVI-I connection is apparently not HDCP compliant so no picture. My annoyance has been compounded by a lack of information from various "experts" resulting in wasting a substantial amount time and money trying to resolve the problem. But I think the worst part of all this is Sky's accessibility, or lack of it. On the last page of the Terms and Conditions are four options for cancelling within the four weeks evaluation period. The telephone number given is not in service and my e-mail to the address has been returned un-delivered. Eventually I got through to the standard Customer Care Team only to be told that I could only cancel the deal by letter. Guess what: different address to that listed in their T's & C's. Then while being transferred to the Technical Department, I was cut-off. Incensed, I sent letter by Recorded Delivery and will see what happens. The HD improvement over SD on the MIRAI is noticeable but not worth the subscription so will no doubt settle for Sky+ for the convenience and Free-sat HD instead as the projector apparently will deliver 720p HD via its Component input.

 

[drummerman]

Much obliged everyone. I think it may be to late to return/change the Kuro (though it's still in the box believe it or not, I need to re-arrange everything first) but I gladly live with it for a while if that option is not there. When I left the projector dem room I looked at the Kuro on the wall with a warm feeling thinking what stunning picture quality, just not as BIG and to be honest, I actually think the set looks exceptionally smart.

Perhaps I run a one of the two projectors mentioned earlier consecutively with the Plasma in a little while, once my finances have recovered a little bit or I sell the Kuro off and count my losses.

I don't know if there's such a thing as a 'projector home trial' but I will push my luck if I see a chance.

Again, all your advise is appreciated. I know sweetdiddlyall about home cinema.

 

[drummerman]

Another question if I may.

If you would, theoretically, project an image the same size as my plasma (50") on to one of those special projector screens say with one of the two projectors I've mentioned earlier (the better one perhaps, but I don't have the technical details on hand), what kind of an image quality could I expect side by side with the Kuro in a dimmed but not entirely dark room? What would the differences be, ie. sharpness, contrast, motion, blurring, picture geometry?

This would give me some idea on flaws or potential problems, obvious benefits of larger image aside.

Perhaps it's not possible to answer that but I am seriously considering hunting around for one in a couple of weeks when I got a week off.

many thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

drummerman:
Another question if I may.

If you would, theoretically, project an image the same size as my plasma (50") on to one of those special projector screens say with one of the two projectors I've mentioned earlier (the better one perhaps, but I don't have the technical details on hand), what kind of an image quality could I expect side by side with the Kuro in a dimmed but not entirely dark room? What would the differences be, ie. sharpness, contrast, motion, blurring, picture geometry?

This would give me some idea on flaws or potential problems, obvious benefits of larger image aside.

Perhaps it's not possible to answer that but I am seriously considering hunting around for one in a couple of weeks when I got a week off.

many thanks.

If you ran the two in the same room, under the same conditions, the main difference you would experience is the level of light output. A TV runs at around 50 foot Lamberts whereas a projector screen should normally be in the range 16-22fL. So you're running at under half the light output.

The other variable would be the contrast. In a projection system you're playing with two variables, the output of the projector (together with its characteristics) and the characteristics of the screen. You should take the contrast ratio claims from projector manufacturers with a pinch of salt. A black screen border will help the perceived contrast ratio of the image in the projection system, but the two experiences are very different. Ambient light tends to wash out blacks on a projection system.

The other things you mention should be within a spit of each other.

www.projectorcentral.com has a very good calculator if you need it.
hth
Gary

 

[drummerman]

Thanks Gary Mardell.

Would it be fair to say then that colours, with blacks, can tend to look more washed out with daylight (or artificial light) intruding in the room in direct comparison too?

I assume they have reasonable zoom facilities. Wall to wall my room measures around 5m. Is that a reasonable distance for the projector to be mounted for a screen of perhaps 80"?

Regards

 

[matengawhat]

drummerman:
Thanks Gary Mardell.

Would it be fair to say then that colours, with blacks, can tend to look more washed out with daylight (or artificial light) intruding in the room in direct comparison too?

I assume they have reasonable zoom facilities. Wall to wall my room measures around 5m. Is that a reasonable distance for the projector to be mounted for a screen of perhaps 80"?

Regards

Yes ambient light washes colours out and blacks - guesss depends how much day time tv you watch - i don't tend to knock it on till gone about 7 so not really an issue

Easily i project an image of 84 inch with no zoom from somewhere between 2.5 and 3m will depend on projector but most i guess will be similar

 

[drummerman]

Thanks matengawhat.

The reason I'm a bit cagey about this particular issue (picture quality with some daylight, sometimes bright) is that we often watch during the day too, an unfortunate side effect of my shift patterns. Even in the evening the room is rarely totally blacked out (I actually like a bit of ambient light), though that obviously can be done if necessary. The room is also right by the coast, south facing and even with curtains drawn is nowhere totally blacked out, the sunlight often reflecting of the water. Even blinds would'nt solve that completely I think.

It really is a question on whether a projector would be an alternative to my conventional Kuro flatscreen or wheter it would be worth to buy a cheaper pj just for the odd big screen occasion and keep the Pioneer for day to day watching.

In order to not run around in circles I leave it that and will investigate PJ the following week, perhaps taking one home for a day if I can.

 

[matengawhat]

I tend to have a litle ambient light on when watching the projector but have the light dimmed and behind both my head and the projector - i have an AX200 which is fantastic i also have an HD65 which i picked up as a second projector for just less than £400 quid a real bargain and to be honest that produces great images - its a 720p projector - its only flaw is the rainbow effect that you can notice if a lot of black and white on screen and move your eyes around a lot. I'm a real perfectionist and notice it but know one else has ever commented on it.

For game playing its far less noticable than with films guess because your concentrating harder if you move your eyes around a lot you can see them but not enough to really put me off - it also produces a really strong bright image and i have used this in a fairly bright room. For the money I don't think you can fault it and prob a good introduction to projectors for you.

I also have a 40inch Sony tv as a back up in the same room - also quite often have both on if for example playing games and watching footy scores not bright enough to really effect the projector

 

[drummerman]

Also many thanks to Clare Newsome/Editor for going through the trouble of creating a blog on the subject.

No thanks to JD, whose posting was refreshingly uninformative but made me laugh, as usual

 

[drummerman]

Cheers. Yes, I have found a decent amount of information on the Panasonic AX200, some conflicting, clearly a case of seeing it myself and then making my mind up. There seems to be both a suffix 'E' and 'U' version, which differ in price, have to find out what if any difference there is.

No information/tests on the InFocus IN80 other than the WH and WV&HD reviews, on which I based my initial short list.

Which one of your projectors suffers from 'rainbow' effect matengawhat?

 

[John Duncan]

drummerman:
Also many thanks to Clare Newsome/Editor for going through the trouble of creating a blog on the subject.

No thanks to JD, whose posting was refreshingly uninformative but made me laugh, as usual

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the second line of my signature.

 

[Clare Newsome]

drummerman:
Also many thanks to Clare Newsome/Editor for going through the trouble of creating a blog on the subject.

My pleasure - it's something I like to evangelise about!

And as mentioned in the blog, I project onto an 80in screen from @12ft away, so you should have no throw issues (but it's always worth checking: just occasionally i'll try out a projector that has short-throw issues)

 

[matengawhat]

drummerman:
Cheers. Yes, I have found a decent amount of information on the Panasonic AX200, some conflicting, clearly a case of seeing it myself and then making my mind up. There seems to be both a suffix 'E' and 'U' version, which differ in price, have to find out what if any difference there is.

No information/tests on the InFocus IN80 other than the WH and WV&HD reviews, on which I based my initial short list.

Which one of your projectors suffers from 'rainbow' effect matengawhat?

The cheap one the Optoma HD65 - but for the money its fantastic

 

[Anonymous]

drummerman:
Thanks Gary Mardell.

Would it be fair to say then that colours, with blacks, can tend to look more washed out with daylight (or artificial light) intruding in the room in direct comparison too?

I assume they have reasonable zoom facilities. Wall to wall my room measures around 5m. Is that a reasonable distance for the projector to be mounted for a screen of perhaps 80"?

Regards

Hi DM, apologies for the delay in posting - having one of 'those' days.

Any washout does tend to be more noticeable on the blacks, although the worst cases affect the whole image.

I just had a quick look on projector central using the Pana and it looks like there is a reasonable level of ambient light allowable, so for day to day stuff, you're probably OK even with a unity gain screen. Looks like you can go up to 130" with a 1.5 zoom, so 80" should be within the range of the projector.
Sorry for the brief reply, must dash!
hth
Gary