Poor Russ Andrews

[Anonymous]

Alienerik, you're not taking into account the full quote, which is:

"We considered that, because the products did not have an effect on CM RFI noise, and given the experts concerns about the lack of protective conductor and unrealistic termination impedances in the testing of DM RFI noise, the evidence we had seen was not sufficiently robust to demonstrate that the PowerKords products were effective in reducing mains-borne RFI. We concluded that the ad was likely to mislead. "

On the other matter, I meant merely that your comment about amplifiers and blind tests was irrelevant in the context of the thread. Whether it was valid or not doesn't come into it.

 

[Tonya]

Not at all Johnny V111, I was merely presenting what I consider a balanced view.
Advertising copy is rarely accurate these days, especially where cables are concerned.
Just look at the names they dream up, stuff like "signiature, oddysey, ultimate, golden, pure", et al, all nice soundbites that ring in your ears.

I don't really want to get mixed up in the whole cable vs cable discussion as most people know my view on the whole circus, but as some esteemed people mentioned a few posts back, is one brand of popular beer "probably the best beer in the world?"
Are my razor blades truly the best a man can get?

My post was actually aiming at the fact that I personally cannot see anything terribly misleading or illegal in most advertising these days especially if you have a definitive recourse by getting a full refund.
I can't see a company launching a product by saying "it's not a bad receiver but we admit it's not nearly as good as our competitor's model".

That's the beauty of the old fashioned HiFi dealer, you get the benefit of his/hers experience and the chance to actually see or hear the products physically before you part with your hard earned cash.
If you don't like what you see or hear then choose something else.
I don't care what it says on the box or the advertising blurb that I've read.

Wether the product is made by Russ Andrews or Russ Abbot, you pay your money and you make your choice.

Talking of advertising, I read in the news today that there is increasing pressure from some organizations here in Norway to forbid airlines from advertising in any media whatsoever as they believe it's encouraging people to harm the enviroment.

Now that's alarming!

 

[Anonymous]

Tonya:

Talking of advertising, I read in the news today that there is increasing pressure from some organizations here in Norway to forbid airlines from advertising in any media whatsoever as they believe it's encouraging people to harm the enviroment.

Now that's alarming!Couldn't agree more. The airlines have a right to advertise the fact they're encouraging people to harm the environment

 

[Tonya]

Hi Grotty!
I do not wish to go off topic here, but may I quote:

"Air transport, which accounts for less than 2% of total EU CO2 emissions, is not the real problem in terms of environmental impacts.
Road transport accounts for 9 times more and small consumer fuel combustion for 6 times more CO2 emissions than aviation within EU airspace".

I now return you to the original discusson already in progress . . . .

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Tonya! How's it going in the one country possibly colder than this one?

Just my warped sense of humour, that's all.

 

[Tonya]

You have no idea just how cold it is right now.
Ther have been countless reports in the media of iPhones failing due to the extreme cold.
Apple have issued a statement that the conditions in Norway are outside the operating parameters of their devices so the warranty is null and void - go figure!

 

[Paul.]

May be off topic, but climate science is an excellent analogy as we have absolutely no idea whats causing what we are witnessing, but a whole bunch of people are acting like its matter of fact, and making a whole lot of money selling product of the back of it. (carbon offset car insurance etc).

 

[The_Lhc]

Paul Hobbs:May be off topic, but climate science is an excellent analogy as we have absolutely no idea whats causing what we are witnessing,

cobblers, the overwhelming data and scientific consensus suggests we have a very clear idea of what's causing climate change. The deniers are a very small minority and only use a subset of the available data to try to prove their claims.

 

[Paul.]

No, we barely understand our planets path around the solar system and the changes that occurs to it. We barely understand how the sun works and it's patterns because of the relatively short amount of time we have been observing it.

I dont deny our climate is changing, I doubt the science behind our analysis because there is far too many variables to consider to just pin it on one incredibly marketable idea. I'm not some petrol worshiper who thinks we can trash our plannet, I like the fact that were making things more efficient. I don't even know for a fact that I'm right to doubt it, but there is a hell of a lot of credible material out their opposing the current way of thinking.

 

[JohnnyV111]

Tonya, isn't there a difference between marketing terms that make a product sound generally inviting and specific technical claims? To go back to Claire's earlier example, "The Ultimate Driving Experience" is, like the lager slogan, a blatantly meaningless and subjective phrase. However, if the phrases were the rather less catchy but more specific "The Most Powerful Car Available for Less Than £50000" or "100ml of Our Lager Contains 20mg of Vitamin B-12" these claims would be subject to legal scrutiny. My opinion is that this is the right balance.

Personally, I find the fact that air travel is still unrestricted to be alarming. The 2% figure is very high when weighted against its usefulness and the small amount of time taken doing it. Widespread irresponsible car use does not make it excusable. The people most likely to be affected by climate change are the ones least likely to see the inside of aeroplanes and luxury cars. Does not their freedom to live without the risk of, for instance, flooding, outweigh the freedom of large companies to advertise unnecessary products that are likely to contribute to such catastrophic events?

 

[kena]

chebby:

Tonya:Ther have been countless reports in the media of iPhones failing due to the extreme cold.

Oh my goodness, I never realised things could ever get that bad!

Don't know why always thought it was a very overpriced , overated product - Sales buoyed on by more hype than substance.

Now a RA Powechord that's something else

 

[Tonya]

Hi all!
I fear that this thread maybe wandering off topic so I'll sum up with my tu'ppence worth.
The mains connection on my Yamaha M7CL recording mixer and the Innovason 32 channel audio production mixer here at work is the standard one that came with it.
I have borrowed several "supermainscables" and heard not one iota of difference.
Not in my setup anyway!
Interconnecting cables are the standard, well made optical or coax variety, nothing outrageous here.
At home, I do confess to using Monster Cable as I consider the products extremely well made and they do last a lifetime.
My 10 metre HDMI cable that supplies the HD projector I bought in the UK for £25.
Works a treat.
Borrowed a supercable from a friend and sat under the projector with my BluRay player directly connected - no discernable difference whatsoever IMHO.

Again, in my own opinion, I do think this cable worshipping is a case of Emporer's New Clothes syndrome, but if one believes to perceive a difference and it makes one happy, then buy them.
I haven't seen a system yet, either professionally or domestic that can't be carefully tweaked to improve reproduction without resorting to extortionate eosoteric cabling.
A simple, well constructed cable is quite sufficient in most cases I've come across.
Again, this is according to my eyes & ears!

As for the iProducts, I gingerly raise my hand up as an early adopter of the iPad but that's mainly for The Wife, secondary remote control and for listening to UK radio in the bath.
Apple stuff is 50% hype, 50% engineering methinks - their marketing is pure genius.
I think the iPhone, although a good product, has long been surpassed by such devices as the HTC Desire HD and the Google Nexus series.

Rounding off, as far as aircraft are concerned, I think that when you weigh up the pollution factor against the usefulness and convenience, they come out pretty well on the Armageddon-O-Meter.
Heavy road transport and cars however are and always were the main culprits along with industry.
But I think it's only a matter of time until safe and efficient fuel cells will be powering our vehicles.
Then again, when that does happen, the world's economy would probably collapse (Norway's certainly would) so welcome to conspiricy theory zone.

Perhaps if they made less of the £1200 kettle cords . . . .

Tonya out.

 

[Big Aura]

Tonya:
Perhaps if they made less of the £1200 kettle cords . . .

I'm waiting for the £1,200 kettle...

 

[Bobbyhifi]

Whilst looking through another Hi-Fi forum I saw this ruling against a well known Hi-Fi accessory manufacturer mentioned, not sure if it's ok to link but basically says £1200 mains cable doing wonders for your system is false advertising as there is technically no discernible difference between it and a bog standard one!

EDITED BY MODS - House Rules

Very interesting!

 

[chebby]

Already covered here - at length - yesterday.

"...but basically says £1200 mains cable doing wonders for your system is
false advertising as there is technically no discernible difference
between it and a bog standard one!"

It absolutely said no such thing, nor came anywhere close.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Indeed. Merged.

 

[Bobbyhifi]

Sorry, had a quick look but totally missed this!!

 

[bigboss]

aliEnRIK:

Im allowed to comment on anything I like so long as its withing the rules, so my 'blind test' comment is valid so far as im concerned

As for this -

"the evidence we had seen was not sufficiently robust to demonstrate that the PowerKords products were effective in reducing mains-borne RFI"

The test may have only reduced one form of RFI, but it was enough to be measured to have an effect on an amps output. How much more evidence is required??

I'm sorry, but the test wasn't done properly & did not reflect the real world use.

"The second claim, that the affect could be mitigated by using cables from Russ Andrews, also failed to stand up to scrutiny. The ASA consulted an expert who pointed out that the study, performed at Russ Andrews' request, only tested for half of the interference, and didn't bother connecting the earth wire, and that loading the wire with a 50 ohm resister was too far from typical usage to be worthwhile. That combination caused the ASA to conclude that the evidence "was not sufficiently robust to demonstrate that the PowerKords products were effective in reducing mains-borne Radio Frequency Interference"."

The wire wasn't even earthed.

 

[chebby]

Why are people still calling these leads... "Kettle leads"? Despite a visual similarity, they are differently rated (kettle lead plugs & connectors are built to withstand 120C temperatures) and they are differently shaped to prevent lower temp rated leads (70C like your hifi mains connectors) from being used unsafely.

(See IEC types C13, C14, C15 and C16)

 

[Big Aura]

so £1,200 and I can't even make a RFI-free cuppa?!

 

[proffski]

I'm up against this all the time at work, and it does my head in! It is fun however when sometimes somebody 'borrows'a 'kettle lead' and then complains that it does not fit their kettle!

 

[aliEnRIK]

bigboss:
I'm sorry, but the test wasn't done properly & did not reflect the real world use.

"The second claim, that the affect could be mitigated by using cables from Russ Andrews, also failed to stand up to scrutiny. The ASA consulted an expert who pointed out that the study, performed at Russ Andrews' request, only tested for half of the interference, and didn't bother connecting the earth wire, and that loading the wire with a 50 ohm resister was too far from typical usage to be worthwhile. That combination caused the ASA to conclude that the evidence "was not sufficiently robust to demonstrate that the PowerKords products were effective in reducing mains-borne Radio Frequency Interference"."

The wire wasn't even earthed.



Would you agree that the test did prove that the cables do in fact filter RFI, even if its 'only' in the tests provided?

 

[idc]

Advertising hifi with wondrous descriptions such as 'Out of This World' (remember them!) is one thing and to be expected. Suggesting that there is scientific evidence to prove a claim is something else. Russ Andrews failed with the science as finding one small but measurable difference and suggesting that makes an audible difference was a fail.

Cable makers in particular are often guilty of making scientific sounding claims and then suggesting they make their cable sound better or even different to others. But the fact is A (a cable is different) and B (cables can sound different) does not mean C (therefore the difference is caused by the cable).

The ASA ruling means that for cable companies to claim A and B really equal C they are going to have to produce a whole host of better evidence. Since Chord, in an e-mail exchange told me that they do do blind testing, I would suggest that they release the results.

Then the the validity of blind testing for audio products can be rigorously assessed as a testing method ( I accept its validity already).

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:bigboss:
I'm sorry, but the test wasn't done properly & did not reflect the real world use.

"The second claim, that the affect could be mitigated by using cables from Russ Andrews, also failed to stand up to scrutiny. The ASA consulted an expert who pointed out that the study, performed at Russ Andrews' request, only tested for half of the interference, and didn't bother connecting the earth wire, and that loading the wire with a 50 ohm resister was too far from typical usage to be worthwhile. That combination caused the ASA to conclude that the evidence "was not sufficiently robust to demonstrate that the PowerKords products were effective in reducing mains-borne Radio Frequency Interference"."

The wire wasn't even earthed.

Would you agree that the test did prove that the cables do in fact filter RFI, even if its 'only' in the tests provided? bigboss wasn't privy to the tests or the adjudication. Your argument is with the ASA, so I'd contact them.

 

[bigboss]

aliEnRIK:bigboss:

I'm sorry, but the test wasn't done properly & did not reflect the real world use.

"The second claim, that the affect could be mitigated by using cables from Russ Andrews, also failed to stand up to scrutiny. The ASA consulted an expert who pointed out that the study, performed at Russ Andrews' request, only tested for half of the interference, and didn't bother connecting the earth wire, and that loading the wire with a 50 ohm resister was too far from typical usage to be worthwhile. That combination caused the ASA to conclude that the evidence "was not sufficiently robust to demonstrate that the PowerKords products were effective in reducing mains-borne Radio Frequency Interference"."

The wire wasn't even earthed.



Would you agree that the test did prove that the cables do in fact filter RFI, even if its 'only' in the tests provided?

Would you agree that improper or lack of earthing worsens RFI? So, in real world, the RFI may not be as bad as Russ Andrews wants us to believe through this testing. It's easy to accentuate the "before" and "after" results by not doing the test properly.