PMC... are they that good?

[Al ears]

Yes it was, given the number of posts I have made in the forum. Why do you see a need to resort to personal abuse? Can you not cope with disagreement?

That is very condescending. Learn what?

Auditioning.

 

[Gray]

I don’t understand your defensiveness, or your aversion to measurements

I'm not defensive - I couldn't care less whether you like PMC or not Noddy 😆
Really I couldn't

As it happens I've worked for a couple of well known hi-fi manufacturers - I understand why measurements are used 👍

Let's just agree that you don't like PMC and that I happen to believe mine give me a very accurate reproduction of sound in my room.
....and I like neutral sound.
If your graphs tell you that what I hear is coloured.....what can I say?
Sorry about that 🙂

I'm really not defending anything but I will tell you this. I feel certain that the majority of people would not describe the sound I've got as coloured.....when judged by listening - they might well describe it as too accurate or 'clinical' for them though.

Enough from me, stick to what you like 👍

 

[Noddy]

I'm really not defending anything but I will tell you this. I feel certain that the majority of people would not describe the sound I've got as coloured.....when judged by listening - they might well describe it as too accurate or 'clinical' for them though.

Enough from me, stick to what you like 👍

You are confusing objective reality and subjective impressions and then saying that my statements about the measurements of PMC speakers are wrong. The PMC Twenty.21 are as I said demonstrably coloured. Now how they sound to you is another issue, but not of much use to other people. They will sound very different to young people. And of course you might have an acoustically poor listening room.

In my own case, even though I prefer a neutral sound, I apply a sloping EQ to my sources to raise the higher frequencies relative to lower ones, to correct for my older hearing. The normal age related changes to our hearing are significant. So no, I wouldn’t expect the majority of people to agree with your assessment of your system.

For what it is worth I’ve heard PMC Twenty.21 and/or PMC Twenty5.21 at home, and in two demo rooms.

Auditioning.

Can I suggest that before you reply to my posts, you actually read them? If you had done so, you’d have seen that here and elsewhere I have recommended demoing components. And you would have also noted that I did indeed demo the PMC Twenty.21 and they sounded good with the music that I played. So in truth it isn’t just about demoing. As I explained earlier, I started to wonder why some genres of music sounded wrong, thus Joni Mitchell’s voice was weird. When I saw measurements, I realised the problem was the colouration of the speakers.

 

[Gray]

You are confusing objective reality and subjective impressions and then saying that my statements about the measurements of PMC speakers are wrong. The PMC Twenty.21 are as I said demonstrably coloured. Now how they sound to you is another issue, but not of much use to other people. They will sound very different to young people. And of course you might have an acoustically poor listening room.

In my own case, even though I prefer a neutral sound, I apply a sloping EQ to my sources to raise the higher frequencies relative to lower ones, to correct for my older hearing. The normal age related changes to our hearing are significant. So no, I wouldn’t expect the majority of people to agree with your assessment of your system.

For what it is worth I’ve heard PMC Twenty.21 and/or PMC Twenty5.21 at home, and in two demo rooms.

Can I suggest that before you reply to my posts, you actually read them? If you had done so, you’d have seen that here and elsewhere I have recommended demoing components. And you would have also noted that I did indeed demo the PMC Twenty.21 and they sounded good with the music that I played. So in truth it isn’t just about demoing. As I explained earlier, I started to wonder why some genres of music sounded wrong, thus Joni Mitchell’s voice was weird. When I saw measurements, I realised the problem was the colouration of the speakers.

I have never said your statements about measurements are wrong.

But I can only be honest - and respectfully tell you that you've got some real problem - that I hope you manage to get to the bottom of.

For what it's worth, my listening room was physically treated to successfully improve the acoustics, it's not one of the shiny, hard floor environments that are all the fashion.

I've got nothing more to say to you about PMC (or any other)speakers.

 

[Al ears]

I have never said your statements about measurements are wrong.

But I can only be honest - and respectfully tell you that you've got some real problem - that I hope you manage to get to the bottom of.

For what it's worth, my listening room was physically treated to successfully improve the acoustics, it's not one of the shiny, hard floor environments that are all the fashion.

I've got nothing more to say to you about PMC (or any other)speakers.

Hear, hear!

 

[Noddy]

I have never said your statements about measurements are wrong.

But I can only be honest - and respectfully tell you that you've got some real problem - that I hope you manage to get to the bottom of.

I would like clarification of that remark as it sounds like a personal insult.

For what it's worth, my listening room was physically treated to successfully improve the acoustics, it's not one of the shiny, hard floor environments that are all the fashion.

I will post this link yet again:

PMC Twenty.21 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the PMC Twenty.21 Stand-mount Speaker. It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $2,000 but member purchased it used for much less. Professional Monitor Company (PMC) is a UK company so keep that in mind when looking at pricing. Their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Those are measurements by an experienced person, his measurements routinely agree with those by other people including manufacturers such as Kef. We can see that the PMC Twenty.21 is extremely coloured.

PMC DB1i measurements:

PMC DB1i loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Again, the DB1i speakers are extremely coloured, and not unlike the Twenty.21.

And the PMC Fact8:

PMC fact.8 signature loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Again we see wide swings in the frequency response.

PMC Result 6 measurements:

PMC Result 6, has anyone listened to them or have any measurements?

Hello! I need to purchase new pair of monitors for work, I'm looking for something fun, with a good wide sweetspot and detailed in frequency and depth for producing music and mix it. I used the Neumann 120 mkII but I wasn't happy with them. I'm a composer and audio engineer. I love the sound of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You have to scroll down a bit, and no link to the source is given. Again we see high colouration.

PMC Prodigy 1 measurements:

PMC prodigy1 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report The baby of PMC's prodigy range represents a gentle enough load for the partnering amplifier with a mere 5.0ohm minimum occurring at a high 14kHz and swings in impedance phase of –59°/3.0kHz and +40°/1.47kHz contributing to an 'easy' EPDR of 2.3ohm/6.1kHz. However the big upswing in...

www.hifinews.com

Here we see very extreme colouration.

No-one could claim that any of these PMC speakers are anything other than very highly coloured, unless they had some degree of hearing loss e.g. normal age related.

If people like the speakers, good for them.

For what it's worth, my listening room was physically treated to successfully improve the acoustics, it's not one of the shiny, hard floor environments that are all the fashion.

I've got nothing more to say to you about PMC (or any other)speakers.

I have the impression that there are some people here who think their hearing is perfect and get upset when someone questions their subjective impressions with data. My hearing certainly isn’t perfect, I’ve tested it, and it shows the expected age related deterioration.

 

[davidf]

I bought them for various reasons. Firstly they got rave reviews, and back then I thought reviewers knew what they were talking about. In truth they just give subjective opinions, and present them as fact. Secondly I liked the sound when demoed. They played the classical music I like very nicely. However, with time I found that they were IMO poor with some genres especially female singers. Joni Mitchell just sounded weird, to my ears. Thirdly, in my room they were fussy about placement and listening position. Fourthly I got them new for a bargain price, £1,000.

To be honest the hifi industry makes me angry. There are many honest people, but there are also many charlatans, and the marketing is unhelpful. I have had good experiences at Seven Oaks and Richer Sounds, but I’ve also been to one hifi chain where the staff were, to put it bluntly, dishonest.

You should never buy speakers based on rave reviews or price.

Regarding the "other hi-fi chain', how do you know they were dishonest? Maybe they just weren't that knowledgable? Is it dishonest if you don't know any better? The experiences at other types of stores could be a we'll honed ruse (by more experienced staff) to get you to buy the brands they're invested in....

 

[davidf]

I would like clarification of that remark as it sounds like a personal insult.

I will post this link yet again:

PMC Twenty.21 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the PMC Twenty.21 Stand-mount Speaker. It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $2,000 but member purchased it used for much less. Professional Monitor Company (PMC) is a UK company so keep that in mind when looking at pricing. Their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Those are measurements by an experienced person, his measurements routinely agree with those by other people including manufacturers such as Kef. We can see that the PMC Twenty.21 is extremely coloured.

PMC DB1i measurements:

PMC DB1i loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Again, the DB1i speakers are extremely coloured, and not unlike the Twenty.21.

I can say from experience that that DB1i and the Twenty.21 are quite different loudspeakers to listen to, and will suit different people. Both of those models are a good 10-15 years old though - there's been four updates to the Twenty series since these (Twenty i, Twenty5, Twenty5i, and now Prophecy).

The problem with ASR is that if Amir had his own way, every manufacturer's loudspeakers would measure flat, we'd be reduced purely buying on looks from the myryad companies producing speakers that sound exactly the same. And Amir would have to find something else to moan about. Too many people buy based on looks already, which is why there's so much "open box" and used speakers on the market. Everybody is different. Everyone has a different system, a different room, different music preferences. Flat response loudspeakers do not suit everybody. In fact, they'll likely suit a small minority (mostly those who are on ASR).

It's a bit like buying an amplifier with digital room correction - it'll force a certain sound signature on the speaker, which will remove any characteristics inherent in the design, and that defeats the point of the listener buying (or even listening to) them in the first place. A loudspeaker should be chosen by the listener based on how it sounds to their ears, and how they interact with their room. If a speaker performs badly in the room, digital correction is polishing a turd.

Going back to flat response loudspeakers, I don't know if you've noticed, but everybody's ears are different. No two pairs of ears are alike - they're shaped differently, with different curvatures and angles etc - hence one of the reason we hear any given sound differently, regardless of how accurately it is presented to us. And that's before we even get into the useable frequency range of each individual's ears, determined by abuse and age.

As much as Amir bangs on about what does and what doesn't measure well, it makes zero difference to the market overall. He's not going to "turn" audiophiles away from speakers they like to speakers Amir thinks sound flat and correct. People still (eventually) buy what they like the sound of, regardless of how they measure.

 

[Noddy]

I did address many of your points earlier, but as you’re new to the thread …

I can say from experience that that DB1i and the Twenty.21 are quite different loudspeakers to listen to, and will suit different people. Both of those models are a good 10-15 years old though - there's been four updates to the Twenty series since these (Twenty i, Twenty5, Twenty5i, and now Prophecy).

The problem with ASR is that if Amir had his own way, every manufacturer's loudspeakers would measure flat, we'd be reduced purely buying on looks from the myryad companies producing speakers that sound exactly the same.

Amir has his own preferences, just as you have yours. If a market exists for your preferences, or his, a product will appear and it will do well. We can ignore his conclusions if for example the frequency response agrees with our own tastes, assuming he hasn’t discovered faults such as excessive noise. Unfortunately many of his followers are somewhat strident.

The point of looking at measurements isn’t to impose on everyone the same sound, be that neutral or something else. Rather it allows you to see what is actually going on, and to see beneath the often copious marketing spiel. Thus many people like a headphone with an elevated bass response, and by looking at measurements they can quickly eliminate models that won’t appeal. It also allows us to see behind claims made in reviews, which are influenced by marketing, personal preferences and appearance. And of course it allows us to see faults in the design, such as cabinet resonances.

I was quite surprised by a video by Steve Guttenberg in which he praises a speaker for neutrality, but states that he generally prefers coloured speakers as he finds them more exciting. It’s a refreshing degree of honesty.

And Amir would have to find something else to moan about. Too many people buy based on looks already, which is why there's so much "open box" and used speakers on the market. Everybody is different. Everyone has a different system, a different room, different music preferences. Flat response loudspeakers do not suit everybody. In fact, they'll likely suit a small minority (mostly those who are on ASR).

It's a bit like buying an amplifier with digital room correction - it'll force a certain sound signature on the speaker, which will remove any characteristics inherent in the design, and that defeats the point of the listener buying (or even listening to) them in the first place. A loudspeaker should be chosen by the listener based on how it sounds to their ears, and how they interact with their room. If a speaker performs badly in the room, digital correction is polishing a turd.

Going back to flat response loudspeakers, I don't know if you've noticed, but everybody's ears are different.

I did say as much earlier on, but you are new to the ‘discussion’.

No two pairs of ears are alike - they're shaped differently, with different curvatures and angles etc - hence one of the reason we hear any given sound differently, regardless of how accurately it is presented to us. And that's before we even get into the useable frequency range of each individual's ears, determined by abuse and age.

I believe age and damage to the inner ear if any are significantly more significant than ear shape, but I haven’t done any research to check. In an earlier post I included links to hearing sensitivity with age showing a significant decline in the higher frequencies

As much as Amir bangs on about what does and what doesn't measure well, it makes zero difference to the market overall. He's not going to "turn" audiophiles away from speakers they like to speakers Amir thinks sound flat and correct. People still (eventually) buy what they like the sound of, regardless of how they measure.

What his personal preferences are is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. But he and others provide measurements that some of us find very informative. It means that if someone says speaker X is neutral, we can check if that statement is true.

What has surprised me is the polarisation here, some people (not you) have directed some quite offensive and untrue remarks at me. This is isn’t a case of cold hard reality versus charlatans and woo. Rather it’s using measurements to inform subjective experiences.

You probably know this as it is well known, but in the 1980’s Bob Carver was challenged to produce two cheap amps that were in a blind listening indistinguisable from two very expensive amps. He succeeded and went on to sell the cheap amps. However, if someone has the money, and they like an expensive voiced amp, they should be free to buy it.

 

[Noddy]

You should never buy speakers based on rave reviews or price.

Well as I said I auditioned them, and they sounded good at the time. I suspect most people who are uninformed about hifi tend to assume sound and build quality scale with price, and reviews are reliable.

Regarding the "other hi-fi chain', how do you know they were dishonest? Maybe they just weren't that knowledgable? Is it dishonest if you don't know any better? The experiences at other types of stores could be a we'll honed ruse (by more experienced staff) to get you to buy the brands they're invested in....

I asked Seven Oaks and Richer about products, on many occasions, and they just said to listen to them, preferably at home. I can’t fault that. I suspect that that approach is taught when staff are trained. Also when I bought the PMC’s from a specialist dealer, the chap on the phone was concerned to know if I had listened to them, showing a degree of professionalism. At the third chain, a proper hifi chain too, not just John Lewis, I tried a cast iron speaker and then asked to hear a PMC Twenty5.21 for comparison. The PMC was more than twice the price. They raved about the PMC, telling me nothing sounds as good as a PMC. You could argue that they were giving an honest opinion, but staff should be educated about hifi and the variation in customer tastes. These weren’t young staff members either. My opinion is that they were feeding me sales talk, for a product with a far higher profit margin. You might call this uninformed, I prefer to call it dishonest. Others can decide for themselves.

 

[davidf]

I asked Seven Oaks and Richer about products, on many occasions, and they just said to listen to them, preferably at home. I can’t fault that. I suspect that that approach is taught when staff are trained. Also when I bought the PMC’s from a specialist dealer, the chap on the phone was concerned to know if I had listened to them, showing a degree of professionalism. At the third chain, a proper hifi chain too, not just John Lewis, I tried a cast iron speaker and then asked to hear a PMC Twenty5.21 for comparison. The PMC was more than twice the price. They raved about the PMC, telling me nothing sounds as good as a PMC. You could argue that they were giving an honest opinion, but staff should be educated about hifi and the variation in customer tastes. These weren’t young staff members either. My opinion is that they were feeding me sales talk, for a product with a far higher profit margin. You might call this uninformed, I prefer to call it dishonest. Others can decide for themselves.

To just reply with "try them at home" sounds like someone who took the job with zero experience. Anyone can do that, it's not something you need to be trained to do. Did they not impart any of their own insight or findings with regards to any questions? It sometimes makes me wonder how so many of these companies do so well. When a dealer states, "nothing sounds as good as....", it's time to find a new dealer. You don't tell a customer which one sounds best, if that was the case, why do you need a shop? Find out customer's preferences, suggest some viable options (from experience), let them listen, and ultimately choose. NO dealer can tell anyone that product A will sound better then product B (or anything else), all things being equal. To make any sort of recommendation approaching that, a dealer would have to know the customer's system and the customer's room, as well as how product A is going to impact that.

You shouldn't visit a dealer for their personal opinions, unless you know them very well and trust their opinions. But even that shouldn't stop you researching alternative products.

 

[Noddy]

To just reply with "try them at home" sounds like someone who took the job with zero experience. Anyone can do that, it's not something you need to be trained to do. Did they not impart any of their own insight or findings with regards to any questions?

They were happy to suggest products according to features, but not comment on the sound. I like that approach. In my experience sound is too subjective, others here will disagree.

These days so much information is available online that I usually don’t bother asking in shops.

It sometimes makes me wonder how so many of these companies do so well. When a dealer states, "nothing sounds as good as....", it's time to find a new dealer. You don't tell a customer which one sounds best, if that was the case, why do you need a shop? Find out customer's preferences, suggest some viable options (from experience), let them listen, and ultimately choose. NO dealer can tell anyone that product A will sound better then product B (or anything else), all things being equal. To make any sort of recommendation approaching that, a dealer would have to know the customer's system and the customer's room, as well as how product A is going to impact that.

You shouldn't visit a dealer for their personal opinions, unless you know them very well and trust their opinions. But even that shouldn't stop you researching alternative products.

That’s a good point.

 

[Al ears]

I can say from experience that that DB1i and the Twenty.21 are quite different loudspeakers to listen to, and will suit different people. Both of those models are a good 10-15 years old though - there's been four updates to the Twenty series since these (Twenty i, Twenty5, Twenty5i, and now Prophecy).

The problem with ASR is that if Amir had his own way, every manufacturer's loudspeakers would measure flat, we'd be reduced purely buying on looks from the myryad companies producing speakers that sound exactly the same. And Amir would have to find something else to moan about. Too many people buy based on looks already, which is why there's so much "open box" and used speakers on the market. Everybody is different. Everyone has a different system, a different room, different music preferences. Flat response loudspeakers do not suit everybody. In fact, they'll likely suit a small minority (mostly those who are on ASR).

It's a bit like buying an amplifier with digital room correction - it'll force a certain sound signature on the speaker, which will remove any characteristics inherent in the design, and that defeats the point of the listener buying (or even listening to) them in the first place. A loudspeaker should be chosen by the listener based on how it sounds to their ears, and how they interact with their room. If a speaker performs badly in the room, digital correction is polishing a turd.

Going back to flat response loudspeakers, I don't know if you've noticed, but everybody's ears are different. No two pairs of ears are alike - they're shaped differently, with different curvatures and angles etc - hence one of the reason we hear any given sound differently, regardless of how accurately it is presented to us. And that's before we even get into the useable frequency range of each individual's ears, determined by abuse and age.

As much as Amir bangs on about what does and what doesn't measure well, it makes zero difference to the market overall. He's not going to "turn" audiophiles away from speakers they like to speakers Amir thinks sound flat and correct. People still (eventually) buy what they like the sound of, regardless of how they measure.

Well said, my sentiments entirely.

 

[davidf]

They were happy to suggest products according to features, but not comment on the sound. I like that approach. In my experience sound is too subjective, others here will disagree.

I find most people DO want you to tell them what something sounds like. I will do so, but I always make it clear to them before doing so that sound is subjective, and what they may hear might not be what I hear, as well as the fact their room is going to have a say in how a loudspeaker will sound.