do you need both, one or the other and which is best? Go into as much detail as you like I really want to know. Thanks.
Please explain DAC and soundcard to me
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Alec
Well-known member
Hopefully someone will come along and do a better job than me but for now, here goes:
If you get a USB DAC, such as the latest beresford or dacmagic by cambridge audio, you will not need any kind of soundcard, and they should yield noticeable improvements.
However, if you opted for the earlier beresford (and there may be other such examples but im not sure), you would need an optical/s-pdif connection in your computer (or other hdd based playback device). Apples come with them, but with PCs you would need to get something like the M-Audio Audiophiel 2496 (others may be available, but i dunno about them), which has an spdif.
Basically tho, if you stick with the first 2 dacs i mention, you would not need a soundcard.
Are there soundcards around that are better than these DACS? I'm not sure, TBH.
If you get a USB DAC, such as the latest beresford or dacmagic by cambridge audio, you will not need any kind of soundcard, and they should yield noticeable improvements.
However, if you opted for the earlier beresford (and there may be other such examples but im not sure), you would need an optical/s-pdif connection in your computer (or other hdd based playback device). Apples come with them, but with PCs you would need to get something like the M-Audio Audiophiel 2496 (others may be available, but i dunno about them), which has an spdif.
Basically tho, if you stick with the first 2 dacs i mention, you would not need a soundcard.
Are there soundcards around that are better than these DACS? I'm not sure, TBH.
A DAC is a Digital to Analoque Convertor - the music is stored on your PC as digital information and needs to be changed into electrical signals that go into your amp's input socket. This means that all PCs that have any kind of audio capabilities, e.g. built in speakers orr a headphone socket, have a built in DAC.
Typically, the DACs in computers are not very good.
Option no. 1 - buy a soundcard which contains a good quality DAC and let that do the conversion. Connect the soundcard directly to your amp via phono cables (if your soundcard has phono out sockets) or a headphone jack-to-phono cable.
Option no. 2 - buy an external DAC such as the Cambridge DacMagic or the new Beresford (there are others) and connect this to your computer via USB. Connect the DAC to your amp via phono cables. In doing this, you are completely bypassing the computer's soundcard. The advantage of external DACs is that they are generally better quality than those build in to computer soundcards.
Option no. 3 - buy an external DAC and connect it to your computer via your computer's optical out. The optical out socket is typically part of the soundcard, but as in option 2 the soundcard's own DAC will be completely bypassed. Again, connect the DAC to your amp.
Obviously if you are going to use an external DAC, then the quality of the computer's DAC is totally irrelevant. A couple of further points on which I can shed no light:
1) There have been various discussion on this very forum regarding the relative merits of USB vs optical connections, including some mention of inherent limitations of USB due to the 16 bit word length... I think. My eyes started to glaze over a bit at that point, although I'm quite keen to have it explained to me in words of one syllable.
2) I'm not sure if all optical outputs are born equal... i.e. will the optical output on a cheap soundcard perform exactly the same as the optical output on a premium model.
Any comments anyone?
Typically, the DACs in computers are not very good.
Option no. 1 - buy a soundcard which contains a good quality DAC and let that do the conversion. Connect the soundcard directly to your amp via phono cables (if your soundcard has phono out sockets) or a headphone jack-to-phono cable.
Option no. 2 - buy an external DAC such as the Cambridge DacMagic or the new Beresford (there are others) and connect this to your computer via USB. Connect the DAC to your amp via phono cables. In doing this, you are completely bypassing the computer's soundcard. The advantage of external DACs is that they are generally better quality than those build in to computer soundcards.
Option no. 3 - buy an external DAC and connect it to your computer via your computer's optical out. The optical out socket is typically part of the soundcard, but as in option 2 the soundcard's own DAC will be completely bypassed. Again, connect the DAC to your amp.
Obviously if you are going to use an external DAC, then the quality of the computer's DAC is totally irrelevant. A couple of further points on which I can shed no light:
1) There have been various discussion on this very forum regarding the relative merits of USB vs optical connections, including some mention of inherent limitations of USB due to the 16 bit word length... I think. My eyes started to glaze over a bit at that point, although I'm quite keen to have it explained to me in words of one syllable.
2) I'm not sure if all optical outputs are born equal... i.e. will the optical output on a cheap soundcard perform exactly the same as the optical output on a premium model.
Any comments anyone?
Alec
Well-known member
John Duncan
Well-known member
Yes - M-Audio, Edirol and (once upon a time) Yamaha are usually the places to start. However, PCs are horribly noisy places (not exactly being designed to screen the soundcard from interference) so getting the card out of the case by using USB are strongly advised for starters.
Dac was a mystery to me as well so i've learned a lot from the posts.
Could i ask a question.
If i connected a USB Dac to the pc & then to my AV amp would the dac in the amp also do something to the sound.I'm assuming that the amp has it's own dac.
My sound card is described as being 'on board' which i gather means not that great.
Could i ask a question.
If i connected a USB Dac to the pc & then to my AV amp would the dac in the amp also do something to the sound.I'm assuming that the amp has it's own dac.
My sound card is described as being 'on board' which i gather means not that great.
Cliff1:Could i ask a question.
If i connected a USB Dac to the pc & then to my AV amp would the dac in the amp also do something to the sound.I'm assuming that the amp has it's own dac.
Meh.. what is this AV of which you speak???
Well, you could either connect the DAC to the AV amp via optical (if the DAC has an optical out) or phono.
If you connected it via optical out, the external DAC would be doing nothing... the optical out which some DACs have is just a pass through I believe. This would leave your AV amp's DAC to do the work. Same effect as connecting the PC straight to the AV amp via optical.
If you connect via phono, then you are not employing the AV amp's DAC.
So, you can do one or the other, I would have thought, but not both.
Feel free to shoot me down in flames anyone, I know almost nothing about AV amps.
Cliff1:My sound card is described as being 'on board' which i gather means not that great.
Umm, probably not. Depends what you're doing with it though. If you're using heavily compressed MP3s played through small desktop speakers, for example, it may be perfectly adequate.
If i connected a USB Dac to the pc & then to my AV amp would the dac in the amp also do something to the sound.I'm assuming that the amp has it's own dac.
Meh.. what is this AV of which you speak???
Well, you could either connect the DAC to the AV amp via optical (if the DAC has an optical out) or phono.
If you connected it via optical out, the external DAC would be doing nothing... the optical out which some DACs have is just a pass through I believe. This would leave your AV amp's DAC to do the work. Same effect as connecting the PC straight to the AV amp via optical.
If you connect via phono, then you are not employing the AV amp's DAC.
So, you can do one or the other, I would have thought, but not both.
Feel free to shoot me down in flames anyone, I know almost nothing about AV amps.
Cliff1:My sound card is described as being 'on board' which i gather means not that great.
Umm, probably not. Depends what you're doing with it though. If you're using heavily compressed MP3s played through small desktop speakers, for example, it may be perfectly adequate.
That's a really useful post, thanks tractorboy.
One more quickie though - if I stream the music on my laptop wirelessly to the amp via a PS3 (or eventually a Squeezebox), where would the DAC go in that system?
Thanks!
One more quickie though - if I stream the music on my laptop wirelessly to the amp via a PS3 (or eventually a Squeezebox), where would the DAC go in that system?
Thanks!
Think I,m right in saying that if the external dac connected to your computer then runs to active speakers you will not need the extra amp.If i,m talking rubbish please tell me.
Murray
Murray
Well, with the caveat that I haven't actually tried either of these setups, I would imagine...
Computer streams wirelessly to Squeezebox
Squeezebox connected to DAC via optical cable
DAC connected to amplifier via phono cables
Once again, feel free to flame me if I talking rubbish.
Not sure about the PS3... though if you do some digging, I think there was a thread on this topic recently.
Computer streams wirelessly to Squeezebox
Squeezebox connected to DAC via optical cable
DAC connected to amplifier via phono cables
Once again, feel free to flame me if I talking rubbish.
Not sure about the PS3... though if you do some digging, I think there was a thread on this topic recently.
blackcabmal:
Think I,m right in saying that if the external dac connected to your computer then runs to active speakers you will not need the extra amp.If i,m talking rubbish please tell me.
Murray
Corrrect. Active speakers have the amplification built in. High end active speakers may also have a DAC built in, see for example AVI kit.
Think I,m right in saying that if the external dac connected to your computer then runs to active speakers you will not need the extra amp.If i,m talking rubbish please tell me.
Murray
Corrrect. Active speakers have the amplification built in. High end active speakers may also have a DAC built in, see for example AVI kit.
Hi the simplest thing to do as far as I am concerned with the ps3 route, is to purchase a dac, connect the ps3 to the dac via the optical cable, then connecting the dac to the amp. You don't have to go the lossless route to achieve good quality sound, you could connect an mp3 player to the ps3 and be pleasnatly surprised by the outcome also, (depending on amp and speakers of course) alternatively you could connect an external hdd perhaps a usb powered one like western digital to the ps3 and play the content of the hdd on the ps3. Now the PS3 supports AAC, mp3 and wav, it also supports avi files but in terms of movies there are some it definitely does not support. I know there are ways around this but I am not familiar with them.
idc
Well-known member
Cliff1:
If i connected a USB Dac to the pc & then to my AV amp would the dac in the amp also do something to the sound.I'm assuming that the amp has it's own dac.
I had thought that it was the CD player, cassette deck, computer etc that had the DAC to do the converting into analogue and the amp took the analogue signal. Record players were exception as there is no digital involved, it is all in the analogue domain. So do amps have DACs?
If i connected a USB Dac to the pc & then to my AV amp would the dac in the amp also do something to the sound.I'm assuming that the amp has it's own dac.
I had thought that it was the CD player, cassette deck, computer etc that had the DAC to do the converting into analogue and the amp took the analogue signal. Record players were exception as there is no digital involved, it is all in the analogue domain. So do amps have DACs?
idc:So do amps have DACs?
Amps with digital inputs do like AV amps and Naim Supernait e.t.c. Hope to see plenty more stereo amps with built in DACs soon...
Amps with digital inputs do like AV amps and Naim Supernait e.t.c. Hope to see plenty more stereo amps with built in DACs soon...
I would certainly not be convinced that a budget amp could have an in built dac and still remain a very good amp, asking a budget amp in particular to do too many things is a bad idea as it will impact on sound quality. Therefore even if this does become more common, it's going to be found on very pricey amps I think.
idc
Well-known member
Had a little trawl on the internet and amps with DACs appear very expensive and high end, so don't really see the point with my type of budget. A stand alone DAC to allow use of a PC or upgrade the one in the source makes more sense.
The perfect thread for me to post my query instead of a new topic, so I'll resurrect it!
My original query is as follows:
A newbie to the forum, so hello!
My amplifier is fine for 5.1 surround with my PS3 as a source.
My query is regarding 2 channel music from my PC.
I
have a Marantz SR4200 AV Amplifier (96kHz/24-bit D/A Converters) which is connected to the PC by Line
out by a phono to minijack lead, via a 10m minijack extension.
I use iTunes to listen to all of my music.
Iam just about to upgrade my speakers to the Wharfedale 9.1 and would
like to know what steps I can take to improve the quality of the source
before it reaches the amp then speakers...
My main concern is that my current setup will not do the new speakers justice, so I am looking at my options for upgrade.
I am only on a small budget.
I would like to know the details regarding a toslink connection to my Amp.
If
I bought a new soundcard, even if it is not a great standard, will the
optical cable carry all the digital information to my superior amp in
order for the amp to do all the musical processing, thus making it a
better signal than I am currently getting with my onboard sound doing the processing?
Or will there be little or no improvement on my current setup?
The
reason I ask is that I have been told digital signals are simple and
therefore the cable only needs to carry a simple digital signal, as
opposed to a cheap analogue one which is open to all forms of signal
depreciation.
Forgive me if this is actually a load of old nonsense!
So
would all the good or bad quality of any soundcard be overlooked
because the signal is carried digitally to the amplifier to do the processing work?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Steve
My original query is as follows:
A newbie to the forum, so hello!
My amplifier is fine for 5.1 surround with my PS3 as a source.
My query is regarding 2 channel music from my PC.
I
have a Marantz SR4200 AV Amplifier (96kHz/24-bit D/A Converters) which is connected to the PC by Line
out by a phono to minijack lead, via a 10m minijack extension.
I use iTunes to listen to all of my music.
Iam just about to upgrade my speakers to the Wharfedale 9.1 and would
like to know what steps I can take to improve the quality of the source
before it reaches the amp then speakers...
My main concern is that my current setup will not do the new speakers justice, so I am looking at my options for upgrade.
I am only on a small budget.
I would like to know the details regarding a toslink connection to my Amp.
If
I bought a new soundcard, even if it is not a great standard, will the
optical cable carry all the digital information to my superior amp in
order for the amp to do all the musical processing, thus making it a
better signal than I am currently getting with my onboard sound doing the processing?
Or will there be little or no improvement on my current setup?
The
reason I ask is that I have been told digital signals are simple and
therefore the cable only needs to carry a simple digital signal, as
opposed to a cheap analogue one which is open to all forms of signal
depreciation.
Forgive me if this is actually a load of old nonsense!
So
would all the good or bad quality of any soundcard be overlooked
because the signal is carried digitally to the amplifier to do the processing work?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Steve
It is true that a digital signal is much less likely to pick up interference, and optical signals are of course best as they are not influenced by electric equipment. As I understand it, the quality of digital output doesnt differ much, but different soundcards have different ways of treating the signal in terms of up-scaling (making stereo sound from all speakers in a sourround system) that differs in performance between brands and price-ranges. I think that, as the dac on your AV-reciever is better than any found on a sheap soundcard, you should buy something like a creative X-Fi.
Hope this helped
Hope this helped
Just to let you guys know, I bought myself the Trust SC-5250 from Play.com for £14.99 and got myself a 10m optical cable for about a fiver.
Got it installed and up and running then made a few tweaks.
I am using iTunes, so I turned off the equaliser settings (which I had relied on to give me a fuller and more complete sound when previously using onboard sound and the PC to do the music processing, via an analogue minijack-phono lead connected to a 10m headphone extension).
I changed the soundcard settings so it was set to optical out, 24bit and 48khz.
The sound improvement is immense.
I was running the PC in parallel to the PS3 which was also connected to my Marantz SR4200 via Optical, playing the same tracks and there was no difference at all.
I assumed my PS3 was playing the stored MP3s bit perfect to the amp (correct me if I'm wrong), so that was the best barometer I had really.
Pretty much all my music is downloaded and isn't at optimal lossless settings, but many of them are at a great quality and regardless, the improvement on it all was as clear as day.
Have tweaked about previously with Wasabi and Asio, but neither offer iTunes support, which is a little dissapointing.
Of course I could listen to all lossless music on my PC, via a perfect bitstream output to my Amp, but for an average user like myself, the steps I have taken have been one of the best upgrades I have ever done since I upgraded my old AST system from 8mb to 16mb RAM
... so I guess this is a bit of a review for anybody that was in my position,- not using high end equipment/encoded files and is looking for the cheapest possible improvement to their setup.
£20 upgrade to provide a simple pass-through for my MP3s, so that my AV receiver can do the DAC processing.
Very much worth it chaps.
Got it installed and up and running then made a few tweaks.
I am using iTunes, so I turned off the equaliser settings (which I had relied on to give me a fuller and more complete sound when previously using onboard sound and the PC to do the music processing, via an analogue minijack-phono lead connected to a 10m headphone extension).
I changed the soundcard settings so it was set to optical out, 24bit and 48khz.
The sound improvement is immense.
I was running the PC in parallel to the PS3 which was also connected to my Marantz SR4200 via Optical, playing the same tracks and there was no difference at all.
I assumed my PS3 was playing the stored MP3s bit perfect to the amp (correct me if I'm wrong), so that was the best barometer I had really.
Pretty much all my music is downloaded and isn't at optimal lossless settings, but many of them are at a great quality and regardless, the improvement on it all was as clear as day.
Have tweaked about previously with Wasabi and Asio, but neither offer iTunes support, which is a little dissapointing.
Of course I could listen to all lossless music on my PC, via a perfect bitstream output to my Amp, but for an average user like myself, the steps I have taken have been one of the best upgrades I have ever done since I upgraded my old AST system from 8mb to 16mb RAM
£20 upgrade to provide a simple pass-through for my MP3s, so that my AV receiver can do the DAC processing.
Very much worth it chaps.
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