Panel speakers? Actives? Class A? Or could I have it all (and more)?

[DocG]

Hi all,

As some of you know, I’m quite smitten with what panel speakers (and Magnepans in particular) do well. Some months ago though, an audition of the BeoLab5s made me consider actives as a possible option too. The Lab5s’ bonus of an automated room correction system also really appealed to me (their price less so…). As for amplification, I didn’t get to auditioning amplifiers yet (as I want to decide on the speakers first), but I’m intrigued by all the buzz around class A amplification (the AMS35i thread!). Choices, choices!

And then I stumbled upon the DEQX devices, and all seems to fall into place. Their preamps with DSP (like the HDP-4 and the Express II) take care of speaker correction (timing, phase and amplitude) and room acoustics compensation, and they have a 3-way (digital) active crossover.

Combining this preamp processor, with 4 channel power amplification and a crossoverless Magnepan (like the Peter Gunn modified MMGs, which have an external passive XO), I would end up with active Maggies with driver and room correction. And the option to blend in a sub (or two) in a later stage, if I felt like it.

And as the power amps are free to choose, I could even go for class A! Adding a pair of AMS 35Ps would probably make for a dream system, be it a prohibitively priced one…

Any suggestions for a not-too-expensive high current power amp (I would need two of them)? I consider a pair of Pathos Classic One MkIIIs (integrated amp, I know) as a maximum (€2300 each). The Bel Canto S125 also seems to fit the bill (65 wpc@8O and 125wpc@4O; peak current 30 A), at €995 each. Anybody heard Vincent amps (like the SP-331 hybrid, 150 wpc/8Ohm and 300 wpc/4Ohm)? I guess Electrocompaniet would overstretch the budget.

Any suggestion welcome! Any experience with DEQX? Please share!

Cheers!

 

[hoopsontoast]

It may be best to keep the Maggies passive (with the Gunn mod) as that crossover network and fuse are also there to protect the panels if your amp goes tits up.

You may be best off just going down the Room Correction route with them anyway. 'Passive' room correction is well worth it IMO with bass traps, diffusor and absorbtion panels too.

Aparently maggies go well with BIG valve amps, which makes sense as they have a purely resisitve 4ohm load which is perfect for a valve amplifier with a 4ohm output tap on the transformers.

 

[Electro]

Obviously my first choice with your budget would be some second hand Electrocompaniet amplifiers , but have you considered some XTZ amps ?

The new XTZ - Class AP100 should do the job , it is switchable between class A and class AB has 62 amps of current delivery and are only € 720 each , definitely worth a look .

Here is a link to their site .

http://shop.xtz.se/bild-ljud/xtz/forstarkare/XTZ-Class-AP100-Silver

Here is the spec .

Output power:
2x50W 8 Ohms (Class A)
2x110W 8 Ohms
2x180W 4 Ohms
2x350W 2 Ohms

Bridge mode
1x 370W 8 Ohms
1x 500W 4 Ohms

Technical Specifications:
Construction type: Class A possible to switch over to class AB
Size: 150 x 435 x 410 mm/460mm incl volume knob and speaker terminals (HxWxD)
Weight: 22 kg

Technical info
Fully balanced low distorion circuit board design

Technical data
•Distortion: < 0.03% (20Hz to 20kHz, 10W)
•Input sensibility : 1.0Vrms
•Damping factor: > = 100
•Input impedance: 20 kohm
•4 output transistors per channel
•Ring-core transformer

Frequency range
5-50k Hz (non flatness < 0.5dB)

Color
•Black/Silverwhite
•Silverwhite
•Black

Connections and settings
•2 inputs XLR/RCA
•Gold-plated RCA connections
•Solid gold-plated loudspeaker connections for banana plugs, fork plugs and screw plug

 

[DocG]

It may be best to keep the Maggies passive (with the Gunn mod) as that crossover network and fuse are also there to protect the panels if your amp goes tits up.

Well Peter Gunn flings the fuse off too, if I'm not mistaken.

'Passive' room correction is well worth it IMO with bass traps, diffusor and absorbtion panels too.

That's a rather expensive option, of course! You know what a divorce costs? :read:

No, seriously. The hifi will be in the living room. I plan to use an acoustic suspended ceiling, and we'll have "classic" curtains, but that'll be the maximum allowed room treatment. No way Mrs. DocG will tolerate bass traps or panels at the first reflection points (which will be the windows and a big built-in cupboard). Hence my interest in the DSP route.

 

[DocG]

Obviously my first choice with your budget would be some second hand Electrocompaniet amplifiers

Oh, really?

, but have you considered some XTZ amps ? The new XTZ - Class AP100 should do the job , it is switchable between class A and class AB has 62 amps of current delivery and are only € 720 each , definitely worth a look .

Thanks, Electro. I'll add them to my shortlist. The Benelux-dealer is in the Netherlands, so I'll have to check how the gear can be auditioned.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you hear AMS 35i + Maggies, all other choices will seem irrelevant.

(and there's still room in the 35 club).

 

[DocG]

If you hear AMS 35i + Maggies, all other choices will seem irrelevant.

(and there's still room in the 35 club).

Well Cno, I might as well take a deep breath and face it! Google, that :twisted:, pointed me to a dealer within reach, who has the 35i in demo, and most of the Maggie line-up, and some more nice stuff (Avantgarde, Accuphase [the E-560], EAR Yoshino, 47 Labs, Leben and what have you).

I have some days off next month, so if I can grab my courage together by then... :help:

 

[richardw42]

Why not just get the B&Os ?

 

[CnoEvil]

If you hear AMS 35i + Maggies, all other choices will seem irrelevant.

(and there's still room in the 35 club).

Well Cno, I might as well take a deep breath and face it! Google, that :twisted:, pointed me to a dealer within reach, who has the 35i in demo, and most of the Maggie line-up, and some more nice stuff (Avantgarde, Accuphase [the E-560], EAR Yoshino, 47 Labs, Leben and what have you).

I have some days off next month, so if I can grab my courage together by then... :help:

That makes me a little less sure about my dogmatic prognostication.......you will have a ball (just leave your credit card at home - for this visit anyway).

I'd like one of these: http://www.whathifi.com/review/ear-yoshino-v12

 

[DocG]

I'd like one of these: http://www.whathifi.com/review/ear-yoshino-v12

I'd have to see it in the flesh (and hear it doing its thang, of course); on the picture, it reminds me of Mickey Mouse... [off to bathroom to wash mouth with bleaching water]

 

[DocG]

Why not just get the B&Os ?

Well, the Lab5s are pretty expensive, for starters. And though I love what they do well (full range, fast, accurate, broad sweet spot, good room correction), they didn't move me, like did the Magnepan 1.7s, driven by a Mastersound valve amp. But I still consider a Lyngdorf DPA-1 + BeoLab9s a viable option. That would no doubt be the most rational approach... I'm just not sure I want to be too rational on this. :?

EDIT: the Avantgarde Zero 1 might be a contender too; should hit the demo rooms this summer!

 

[matt49]

Well Cno, I might as well take a deep breath and face it! Google, that :twisted:, pointed me to a dealer within reach, who has the 35i in demo, and most of the Maggie line-up, and some more nice stuff (Avantgarde, Accuphase [the E-560], EAR Yoshino, 47 Labs, Leben and what have you).

I have some days off next month, so if I can grab my courage together by then... :help:

A direct comparison of the MF AMS35i and the Accu E560 will be very tasty! I would have loved to do this, but no dealers in the UK have the E560.

On the subject of room correction, the DEQX kit looks very interesting, but are you sure you need it? Presumably you've got a pretty strong hunch that your room's severely compromised, or else you wouldn't be contemplating this.

Matt

 

[Macspur]

If you hear AMS 35i + Maggies, all other choices will seem irrelevant.

(and there's still room in the 35 club).

Well Cno, I might as well take a deep breath and face it! Google, that :twisted:, pointed me to a dealer within reach, who has the 35i in demo, and most of the Maggie line-up, and some more nice stuff (Avantgarde, Accuphase [the E-560], EAR Yoshino, 47 Labs, Leben and what have you).

I have some days off next month, so if I can grab my courage together by then... :help:

It would be good to have some direct feedback on an Accuphase E560 and it includes tone controls, so, like me, you may not have to worry with room correction... keep us posted.

Mac

 

[steve_1979]

...Combining this preamp processor, with 4 channel power amplification and a crossoverless Magnepan (like the Peter Gunn modified MMGs, which have an external passive XO), I would end up with active Maggies with driver and room correction. And the option to blend in a sub (or two) in a later stage...

That sounds like a fascinating project. Be sure to post lots of photos if you decide to go ahead with it.

 

[DocG]

On the subject of room correction, the DEQX kit looks very interesting, but are you sure you need it? Presumably you've got a pretty strong hunch that your room's severely compromised, or else you wouldn't be contemplating this.

Our living room will have a "less is more" look (as will the rest of the house). Think lots of glass, laminated MDF and granite. There will be an acoustic suspended ceiling and big curtains though, so I'm not sure how bad it will be (the house is still under construction).

I know a DSP engine cannot correct everything, but it may give some more flexibility in positioning of the speakers, and can calm down the nastiest room modes. Then again, the DEQX first and foremost corrects the speakers (amplitude, phase and timing), thus lessening the need for room correction [tries hard to pretend he knows what he is talking about ]. Reading the reviews, it seems to have quite an effect even with properly set-up quality gear.

 

[DocG]

...Combining this preamp processor, with 4 channel power amplification and a crossoverless Magnepan (like the Peter Gunn modified MMGs, which have an external passive XO), I would end up with active Maggies with driver and room correction. And the option to blend in a sub (or two) in a later stage...

That sounds like a fascinating project. Be sure to post lots of photos if you decide to go ahead with it.

OK Steve, but it will be a long-term project anyway. Peter Gunn's waiting list takes about a year, and I'm far from sure the house will be ready by then.

 

[DocG]

It would be good to have some direct feedback on an Accuphase E560 and it includes tone controls, so, like me, you may not have to worry with room correction... keep us posted.

Mac

Just dropped the dealer an email. Let's see what happens...

 

[Macspur]

It would be good to have some direct feedback on an Accuphase E560 and it includes tone controls, so, like me, you may not have to worry with room correction... keep us posted.

Mac

Just dropped the dealer an email. Let's see what happens...

That's good... fingers crossed.

Mac

 

[SpursGator]

Yeah keep us posted...I am following this too. A lot of the hifi porn I am looking at these days involves active crossovers...right there with you.

I've always thought of using my MC150 for the bass section of an active system someday...and I have wondered what would happen if I mixed it up and tried to put tubes or at least SS Class A up top. It's probably a bad idea to treat different parts of the same music too differently, but it's still an intriguing experiment. I am going to sell the Logos but I thought of trying to use it as a power amp for the highs just to see what that would sound like...but I don't have the active crossover.

And I'm still not sure I want to run everything I listen to through DSP. In principle I'm against that. But to get the quality of actives through high-end power amps...that might be what's next.

 

[DocG]

Yeah keep us posted...I am following this too. A lot of the hifi porn I am looking at these days involves active crossovers...right there with you.

I've always thought of using my MC150 for the bass section of an active system someday...and I have wondered what would happen if I mixed it up and tried to put tubes or at least SS Class A up top. It's probably a bad idea to treat different parts of the same music too differently, but it's still an intriguing experiment. I am going to sell the Logos but I thought of trying to use it as a power amp for the highs just to see what that would sound like...but I don't have the active crossover.

And I'm still not sure I want to run everything I listen to through DSP. In principle I'm against that. But to get the quality of actives through high-end power amps...that might be what's next.

Thanks for the support!

What is your view on the role of the passive XO in protecting the drivers (panels in particular?) from a failing amp [i.e. DC current, I suppose] - as Hoops posted. The DEQX-dealer tells me not to worry cos it is very unlikely to happen... But he might be somewhat biased of course.

As for DSP, my point of view is: it's all hugely digitally processed during mastering and production, so a little extra when playing the music won't harm. Simplistic, I know. :shifty:

 

[DocG]

It would be good to have some direct feedback on an Accuphase E560 and it includes tone controls, so, like me, you may not have to worry with room correction... keep us posted.

Mac

Just dropped the dealer an email. Let's see what happens...

That's good... fingers crossed.

Mac

OK, no reply to my email yet, so I phoned him. Unfortunately he has no Avantgarde speakers in demo at the moment. And that was the main reason I wanted to pay him a visit: to compare Avantgarde vs. Magnepan.

I'll just wait until the Avantgarde Zero 1 comes in, and then compare those to Maggie 1.7s, driven by the AMS and the E-560. Will be interesting (but might take some waiting...)!

Meanwhile I'm going to audition the Devialet D Premier next Wednesday, with Harbeth and Devore speakers. But that's for another project...

 

[Macspur]

Exciting times, thanks for the update...sure it will be worth the wait.

Matt49 really enjoyed the Devialet/Harbeth combo... please report back with your thoughts too.

Mac

 

[matt49]

Meanwhile I'm going to audition the Devialet D Premier next Wednesday, with Harbeth and Devore speakers. But that's for another project...

Another project? Crikey! :cheer:

As Mac said, I was very impressed by the D-Premier + Harbeth Super HL5s.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Matt

 

[igloo audio]

Hi DocG,

One of the best systems I ever heard was a fully active Manger/SEAS speaker system called 'The Angel' by Overkill Audio. The system was driven by a Pioneer (Tom Evans modified) CD player, DEQX and a multi-channel amplifier by Butler Audio in the U.S.

Sadly, neither the DEQX (I don't believe?) or Butler Audio are CE/RoHS compliant, which means dealers cannot sell legally in the EU, and therefore support is going to be questionable. However, if set-up correctly, the results can be stunning, though I'd always recommend you fix the room, rather than fix the HiFi.

Btw, you could look at a 7-channel amplifier like the NAD M25.

Peter

 

[DocG]

Hi DocG,

One of the best systems I ever heard was a fully active Manger/SEAS speaker system called 'The Angel' by Overkill Audio. The system was driven by a Pioneer (Tom Evans modified) CD player, DEQX and a multi-channel amplifier by Butler Audio in the U.S.

Sadly, neither the DEQX (I don't believe?) or Butler Audio are CE/RoHS compliant, which means dealers cannot sell legally in the EU, and therefore support is going to be questionable. However, if set-up correctly, the results can be stunning, though I'd always recommend you fix the room, rather than fix the HiFi.

Btw, you could look at a 7-channel amplifier like the NAD M25.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Someone who heard the stuff with his own ears and liked it: excellent!

Though there is an official DEQX dealer for the Benelux, he's based in the Netherlands, at 200+ km, so hearing the DEQX gear in action won't be obvious for me (BTW, there is a dealer for the UK too, and for Germany, Sweden, Norway and Poland). He doesn't do home demos either, as it takes several hours to set the thing up properly. So it would be a second leap of faith for me (after the speakers).

As for fixing the room or the hifi, DEQX mainly fixes the speakers (amplitude, phase and timing), while room correction is kept to a strict minimum (they even quote the Hippocratic Oath "Do not harm" ).

The NAD M25's 7 channels would be too much for me, as I *only* need 4 of them.