Over-damped sound?

[Pedro2]

Does anyone have any experience of over-damped room acoustics and possible treatments? I've posted before about my difficult room acoustics; square shape, low ceiling, thick stone walls. Currently I'm getting the best sound ever from my system (following change to ATC SCM11) but discovered recently that the large blanket covered sofa is acting like a giant sound 'sponge '. Can't get rid of it so this isn't an option. Thought about adding some kind of reflective material behind the blankets. The sofa seems to affect higher frequencies rather than bass which was a problem before the ATCs arrived but not now.

Any suggestions (short of moving house) appreciated *biggrin*

 

[Vladimir]

1) Glass or leather coffee table in front of the sofa should do the trick.

2) You can also tilt the speakers horizontally towards your listening position to get more direct radiation from the tweeters.

3) If the tweeters aren't at ear height, adding height or tilting the speakers vertically helps to liven the sound.

 

[Pedro2]

Thanks Vladimir,

I will experiment with vertical tilt when I get home (weekend break). Already have speakers toed in slightly although toe-out is another possibility to get some bounce of the side walls. Coffee table in front not possible as it would cause problems with our 5 yr old and his 'dance' zone (current favourite - Led Zeppelin). Got cheap foil blanket on order too which may prove to be useless.

Got me thinking that room acoustics affects sound as much as most items of equipment and why home audition is vital before buying!

 

[MeanandGreen]

Got me thinking that room acoustics affects sound as much as most items of equipment and why home audition is vital before buying!

Room acoustics are everything. No matter what the system you are always listening to the room. Acoustics have much more impact on how your kit sounds than the kit itself.

 

[drummerman]

As mentioned, speaker position/placement is the most effective way of tuning your sound. Once you depleted these options you could try silver plated copper speaker cable of decent circumference, silver being a better conductor and as the plating is around the copper, high frequencies travel predominantly that way (on the cable/strand circumference). Contrary to popular belief, a thick cable does little for additional bass, more for high frequencies.

Other than that, you may find that the ATC's treble is just to demure and may have to consider a speaker change again.

The older I get, the more tolerant I become of high frequencies. Twenty years ago many tweeter took my ears off.

regards

 

[Jota180]

Good point from Drummerman. As we get older our ability to hear the higher frequencies degrades, more so I'd guess for people who work in loud environments or who like nightclubbing and loud concerts. Our hearing range drops from 20kHz to as low as 14kHz in some cases. Men get it worse than women too and sooner.

 

[Macspur]

Hi Pedro,

Is this just a recent problem, or ever since installing the ATC's?

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[Pedro2]

Hi Macspur,

The ATCs replaced a pair of Neat Motive 2s which sounded great at times but in our living room, often had a tendency to bass 'boom'. The ATCs produce a great sound with more detail and tuneful bass. My hearing is probably ok although higher frequencies will not be the same as in my 20s (some time ago!).

Overall, the sound is very good. It's just that the other day, I was listening on the sofa and leaned back with my hands behind my head. I became aware of a subtle but noticeable change in the music which was now able to 'bounce' off my open hands and into my ears. I liked what I heard which made me think that the room was over-damped.

I told my better half who suggested a set of specially constructed plastic ears. I think I'll try other approaches first! I'm probably splitting hairs here but you know what it's like in this game; the never ending quest for that 'perfect' (but elusive) sound! Must also add that the ATC tweeter is very revealing but never harsh. I don't think it's 'laid back' either.

I remain pretty convinced it's the room and the sofa which might benefit from some subtle tweaks.

 

[Pedro2]

Drummerman,

Interesting suggestion about cable, thanks. Might also be worth a try with silver coated (not used any for years) although Rick at Musicraft recommended basic 500 strand copper for the ATCs which I am using at the moment.

 

[BigH]

It's just that the other day, I was listening on the sofa and leaned back with my hands behind my head. I became aware of a subtle but noticeable change in the music which was now able to 'bounce' off my open hands and into my ears. I liked what I heard made me think that the room was over-damped.

I have noticed that also, but I don't think its anything to do with the room, its because more of the sound is going into your ears directly.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I would suggest an overdamped room is a rarity. Others may suggest options to liven the system but high frequencies are less affected by room acoustics. Speaker position (and dare I mention tone controls) IMO. Is the bass overpowering the mid/treble?

 

[Macspur]

Hi Macspur,

The ATCs replaced a pair of Neat Motive 2s which sounded great at times but in our living room, often had a tendency to bass 'boom'. The ATCs produce a great sound with more detail and tuneful bass. My hearing is probably ok although higher frequencies will not be the same as in my 20s (some time ago!).

Overall, the sound is very good. It's just that the other day, I was listening on the sofa and leaned back with my hands behind my head. I became aware of a subtle but noticeable change in the music which was now able to 'bounce' off my open hands and into my ears. I liked what I heard which made me think that the room was over-damped.

I told my better half who suggested a set of specially constructed plastic ears. I think I'll try other approaches first! I'm probably splitting hairs here but you know what it's like in this game; the never ending quest for that 'perfect' (but elusive) sound! Must also add that the ATC tweeter is very revealing but never harsh. I don't think it's 'laid back' either.

I remain pretty convinced it's the room and the sofa which might benefit from some subtle tweaks.

I like the wife's sense of humour!

I was just curious, as I used to own some ATC SCM40's and at first I was blown away by the SQ, but rapidly found it became dull and uninvolving and whilst I do agree the tweeter is not at all harsh, ATC is so neutral, it will show up any deficiencies elsewhere in the system.

Apologies if I'm throwing a spanner in the works... by all means explore the room acoustics first, but bare what I said in mind.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[Pedro2]

I found the Neat's to have an imbalance in the room; too much lower end which I suspected was masking the top/middle. The bass was just 'hanging around' for too long. This is not the case with the ATCs however. As a closed box design, the bass is tight and tuneful. I agree that they will reveal any shortcomings in the source but I'm feeding them quality; Linn Majik into a Caspian power amp. I will experiment further with positioning when we get home

 

[Glacialpath]

Hi there.

This may sound silly but if you haven't already doen it make sure all the cables on your set up have the text reading from the source towards the output point. This just might give your high end back.

If not then no worries, ignor me lol.

 

[steve_1979]

Hi there.

This may sound silly but if you haven't already doen it make sure all the cables on your set up have the text reading from the source towards the output point. This just might give your high end back.

It does.

 

[chebby]

Hi there.

This may sound silly but if you haven't already doen it make sure all the cables on your set up have the text reading from the source towards the output point. This just might give your high end back.

If not then no worries, ignor me lol.

This only works if all the electrons start at the source and all travel just one-way ending up at the speakers in a continuous linear flow.

If this really happened, the voice coils in your speakers would overheat and probably melt (the energy has to go somewhere) because that is a DC circuit and speakers hate DC.

In reality the signal current is shunting backwards and forwards in the conductors thousands of times per seconds - at the frequency of the music - and the energy ends up being lost by driving your speaker cones in and out at the same rate rather than catching fire or fusing the amp! This is AC (alternating current).

So the current is really spending equal amounts of time going in each direction in all of your interconnects and speaker cables. This is why arrows marked on cables (or 'Directionality') is a myth punted to people who believe signal current 'flows' like a river in just one direction and that 'special' directional properties can be built in to cables to make the flow better one way around rather than the other.

 

[Pedro2]

Thanks for everyone's input

The treble is there. It's just that there's a perceived lack of 'reverb'. I say 'perceived' because my wife thinks the sound is great and I'm just a bit crazy. She's also suggested that if I had ears like a fox, for example, then I wouldn't have a problem. I'm doing my best to ignore her suggestions which are far less helpful than yours *dash1*

 

[Vladimir]

The actual velocity of electrons through a conductor is measured as an average speed called drift speed. This is because individual electrons do not continue through the conductor in straight line paths, but instead they move in a random zig-zag motion, changing directions as they collide with atoms in the conductor. Thus, the actual drift speed of these electrons through the conductor is very small in the direction of current. For example, the drift speed through a copper wire of cross-sectional area 3.00 x 10-6 m2, with a current of 10 A will be approximately 2.5 x 10-4 m/s or about a quarter of a milimeter per second. So how does an electrical device turn on near instantaneously? If you think of a copper wire as a pipe completely filled with water, then forcing a drop of water in one end will result in a drop at the other end being pushed out very quickly. This is analogous to initiating an electric field in a conductor.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks for everyone's input

The treble is there. It's just that there's a perceived lack of 'reverb'.

I suspect the speakers are accurately telling you what they are receiving.

If you want to see what different cables bring to the mix, you could try some TQ Black (provided you can borrow some)....though don't spend more on cables than would give a bigger upgrade somewhere else in the system.

 

[Vladimir]

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/tellurium-q-black-speaker-cable-factory-terminated-p-6490.html

You can even select Burn-In time for the cables. Genious!

 

[unsleepable]

Thanks for everyone's input

The treble is there. It's just that there's a perceived lack of 'reverb'. I say 'perceived' because my wife thinks the sound is great and I'm just a bit crazy. She's also suggested that if I had ears like a fox, for example, then I wouldn't have a problem. I'm doing my best to ignore her suggestions which are far less helpful than yours *dash1*

I had a similar experience when testing at home a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core. I was rather interested in it to use it as a digital preamp, but since it offers the room correction feature, I of course gave it a go—even though I don't feel like there are any particular accoustic issues in my living room.

The Anti-Mode does what it promises and does it well. It's very easy to set up the room correction and then adjust it to your liking. And the sound it produces is beautiful, the bass becomes extremely tight and tuneful. The sound is so clean you could eat on top of it with your bare hands. It cleans the reverberations of your room and, since it's at it, probably from the recording studio also. Well, the last bit is maybe an exageration but you get the idea.

The thing is that I also felt that it made the music a bit more flat and sterile, it was deprived from some drama. And I actually preferred the sound without the room correction. It's a very personal thing, and I am sure that many here would have preferred the sound the other way around. It definitely suited some music genres particularly well, such as jazz and some classical. I don't like boominess, I definitely enjoy a well defined bass. But yes, I think that sometimes there can be too much of it—and again, in my particular case I didn't think that the room had accoustic issues that needed to be corrected.

Also, in real life we are used to hearing things with some reverberations almost anywhere—particularly live music. In my opinion, removing all of them may make the sound appear even a bit unnatural.

Maybe your room really is too well damped for your ATC speakers—which already produce a very tight sound to start. Also, I've come to realize that a couple of auditions are often not enough to grasp all the nuances of the sound that a particular hi-fi equipment produces. Sometimes you need to live with it for a while to realize other aspects that you didn't notice before, and that you may like or not.

 

[Pedro2]

I'm Intrigued now. Not at home so can't listen to music on the system and decide whether there's an issue or my wife's right and it's my ears or my brain! Will fire it up tomorrow and listen carefully.......

 

[Pedro2]

Well ..... been home now for a few days after 3 days without hi fi. Must say that my wife's take on this issue is sounding more and more reasonable. Played Hejira by Joni Mitchell the other night and it sounded superb, as did Nick Drake.

Some tinkering around the edges is still possible, I think, and may investigate speaker cable options as suggested by Cno.

Just listening to Dave Gilmour on Radio 2 (Chris Evans). Floyd album due out soon (the last ever so it's rumoured).

Thanks for everyone's input

 

[Esra]

I know exactly what you mean with your post.That´s why I believe there isn´t "The System" which works with all kind of music at the same level.I also prefer sometimes to listen with room correction and sometimes without it,best (if you have the place) to get different sytems suiting to your actual mood and music than rather invest all the money for one system imo..

 

[steve_1979]

I know exactly what you mean with your post.That´s why I believe there isn´t "The System" which works with all kind of music at the same level.I also prefer sometimes to listen with room correction and sometimes without it,best (if you have the place) to get different sytems suiting to your actual mood and music than rather invest all the money for one system imo..

I prefer the root of getting the best and most accurate (undestorted) system that money allows and then adjust the graphic equalizer and other DSP functions to alter the sound when the mood/media played requires it.