One Down - Three To Go

[ESP2009]

She's going to kill me, I know it.

Following an ill-timed, but enjoyable weekend away, last night was my first chance to start mucking about with the various bits of hi-fi kit I have been accumulating. So, whilst she-who-liketh-not-my-row is busily sipping on cocktails in warmer climes, I seized my opportunity.

Stage one involved disconnecting everything and the removal of various components. The VCR and tuner are now redundant as far as I am concerned. Well, put it this way, despite the collection of her videos taking up valuable DVD and Bluray space, the VCR has actually been unplugged since not long after Christmas, and never a peep of complaint!

Stage two involved a selection of saws and a degree of sweating and minor curses as I ‘redesigned' what passes for a hi-fi cabinet in our household. Too long have I been hampered by keyhole cabling and everything butting up against the back of the unit that has restricted me when ‘tweaking'. The cheap plywood rear panel put up more resistance than expected but I triumphed in the end. Not the neatest job, but hopefully I will find a way of concealing the gaping hole at the rear (even though the stack of black boxes has been reduced and the wiring looks a tad obtrusive now - oops!) Anyway, it was free from a previous doomed employer, so it's mine to do with as I please...until she gets back.

Finally, with the first set of Tesco granite chopping boards, BluTak and squash balls in place, I was ready to re-introduce key items. First was the V+ box (well, I know that is least likely to move and, besides, I strongly suspected that at 9.00pm it would need to be ready to record ‘Outer Mongolia's Next Top Whingeing ***'). Next was the CDP and DACMagic combo and I was ready to play - where had the evening gone?

I decided to try one of the Pioneer A400 amps again. I have to admit that I find it hard not to like this piece of kit. For the price it provides a performance that matches the reviews and popularity it garnered. If it cost half the going rate for the Audiolab 8000S back in 1996-ish, I freely admit is was better value for money.

However, with Atlas Compass coaxial, Merlin Chopin Mk3, and Chord Odyssey cabling to the key components, I definitely find it too forward. There is no doubting the clarity of the sound, but I began to find it tiring after a while, even at relatively low volumes. Also, I realised that, as with the Ecosse Nu Diva I/Cs, it was causing Melody Gardot to wander off to the right of the soundstage again.

I unhooked the Pioneer and returned the Audiolab to the mix (in single wire mode). Melody sidled back to her rightful position in front of me, but I immediately noted the sound was just that bit veiled in comparison - easier to listen to overall, but lacking in presence and accuracy. So, time to add the second run of Odyssey to each speaker. Yes, an improvement straight off. The lower end tightened up a touch and the top end became that bit clearer and airier. Certainly a pleasant listen.

Unfortunately, by now it was getting beyond 10.00pm - not good when you have had a tiring weekend, some idiot has put the clocks forward, it is work in the morning, and the neighbours are in. Turning the music up was not really an option, and I really needed to head upstairs for some shut-eye, but what I just could not resist was a quick reference to Mr. E's advice on the bi-amping configuration. Oh well, just a few more minutes won't hurt. And that's all it took - "seempuls!"

And? Well, that would be telling...

 

[idc]

The forum demands pictures!

 

[ESP2009]

idc:The forum demands pictures!

Much too embarrassing!

 

[Anonymous]

ESP2009:And?ÿ Well, that would be telling...

Come on...the suspense is too much! Spill the beans before your wife gets back and murders you for chucking out her videos and hacking the furniture to bits.

 

[ESP2009]

athenry:

ESP2009:And? Well, that would be telling...

Come on...the suspense is too much! Spill the beans before your wife gets back and murders you for chucking out her videos and hacking the furniture to bits.

Oh, I thought no-one would ever ask!

Alright, but I need to confirm findings this evening. The bi-amping brought a further increase in overall presence - there is a fullness to the sound that I believe was previously missing. As I say, I didn't really get to listen properly, but the sound was certainly different.

Without all the hacking up of furniture and associated activities, maybe this evening will give more time for listening.

By Thursday I will need to have a tidier solution to the cables, or at least something to conceal them.

 

[Anonymous]

ESP2009:

I decided to try one of the Pioneer A400 amps again. I have to admit that I find it hard not to like this piece of kit. For the price it provides a performance that matches the reviews and popularity it garnered. If it cost half the going rate for the Audiolab 8000S back in 1996-ish, I freely admit is was better value for money.

However, with Atlas Compass coaxial, Merlin Chopin Mk3, and Chord Odyssey cabling to the key components, I definitely find it too forward. There is no doubting the clarity of the sound, but I began to find it tiring after a while, even at relatively low volumes. Also, I realised that, as with the Ecosse Nu Diva I/Cs, it was causing Melody Gardot to wander off to the right of the soundstage again.

I

The Marantz CD63 MKII K1 sig has been described by many as being 'bright' .... and the Pioneer A400 has also been described as being 'bright'

The Chord Odyssey speaker cable that you are using is OFC copper that has been coated with silver .... I suggest trying some copper speaker cable (without silver coating) .... I use Hitachi, but not freely available ... perhaps buy some cheap OFC copper cable to try

I have had very good results using Van Den Hul copper speaker cable when I had an A400 connected to IMF TLS 80 speakers and a CD63 MKII K1 sig cdp ... I also used a silver interconnect with this setup (bought it 2nd hand and there was no name on it, but was silver) ... I have also helped set up several systems with A400's plus CD63 cdp's for my son's college mates last year ... always bought van den hul speaker cable when using the 2 together

Am watching your posts with interest, as I have never read any reviews of the Pioneer A400 used as 'bi-amping'

 

[ESP2009]

I happen to have some VdH speaker cable lying around somewhere - maybe I will try it out.

As for bi-amping the A400s, it looks as though that would involve buying some Y-splitters and more I/C cabling, which is not on the agenda at present.

To be continued...

 

[Anonymous]

Definately need photo's!!

I do these things and my fiancee generally loves the improvements, never had a complaint at ordering a new bit of kit!! Just lucky I guess.

 

[ESP2009]

TheYellowPeril:

Definately need photo's!!

I do these things and my fiancee generally loves the improvements, never had a complaint at ordering a new bit of kit!! Just lucky I guess.

I will see what I can do regarding photos - maybe a 'work in progress' and an 'after'.

With regard to my other half, she just doesn't see the point. She's happy for me to waste my own time and money as long as she doesn't feel adversely impacted.

Anyway, as I type I am listening to Tubular Bells:25th Anniversary Edition - sounding pretty darned good to me. I will play around when I've eaten. I've been rooting round in what I tend to refer to as Mr. Trebus' front room (if you ever watched Life of Grime) and found various interesting pieces of cable. The living room is beginning to look like an explosion in a hi-fi shop!

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, a classic!! Though I think you'd be hard pushed to not be impressed with that on any kit.

Good luck with the rebuild and see if you can sort out a work in progress shot.

 

[ESP2009]

TheYellowPeril:

Ah, a classic!! Though I think you'd be hard pushed to not be impressed with that on any kit.

Good luck with the rebuild and see if you can sort out a work in progress shot.

By popular(?) request and after a bit of a struggle with the technique...

Once I have finished messing, I will endeavour to improve the overall layout and aesthetics, but I am somewhat restricted.

As for this evening's experimentation...oh, is that the time? Must away to bed...

 

[ESP2009]

Second Evening (mostly typed up lat night):

I decided to shun the Audiolabs for the better part of the evening - they are pretty much a known item, even now in bi-amp configuration. But what about the Pioneer?

Taking Dim_span's advice, I decided to experiment with cabling and see what would occur. Irritatingly, Mr Trebus was not very forthcoming in the 'bell-wire' department. I am sure I have some old string I/Cs somewhere, but they must be well down the haphazard storage system and too hard to unearth! However, I managed to dig out a selection of other odds and ends.

First up was Chord Cobra paired with an ancient pair of Cable Talk 3 speaker cables. Ooooh, surprisingly clear, bright and sparkling. Really quite airy and full of lively clarity. Equally, a fairly decent bass depth was in evidence. However, the mid-range lacked a certain something. Overall, despite filling the wall with tinkling sound, underpinned by solid low range, the overall effect lacked conviction or, indeed, warmth and presence.

So, I switched to the Van den Hul Tea Track bi-wire I got off Fleabay last year to tame my TDL RTL2 speakers. With a bit of fiddling, I managed to install the cable minus two of the four connections per speaker. Immediately, the whole sound was given a fuller, rounded feel to underpin the upper end. Yep, a definite step in the right direction.

Next, I switched the Chords from Cobra to Crimson. This seemed to introduce some restraint and refinement; the sound became less bright and edgy, making it easier listening. A good thing? Depends on your listening tastes, but probably less tiring over longer periods.

Next out of the 'spares' store was a pair of Tandy Gold Patch I/Cs - my first ever set of replacements for what usually comes in the box. I admit to being somewhat surprised by these: I would say they performed somewhere close to the Cobras. Maybe not as precise and they lacked the same bass depth/strength, but performed commendably even so.

OK, so I am pushed for time and every combination is not feasible, but what to try next? The Merlin Chopins with the VdH. Ah, much better: a fuller, sweeping soundscape - seeming more integrated and natural to my ears. Enjoyable, but maybe beginning to lose the upper end now?

Right, up steps the QED SA XT (bi-wire trimmed back to single for this exercise) to replace the Tea Track. Immediately there is an increased airiness and boost to the top end, but not by the mile I had anticipated.

Last roll of the dice: Silver High Breed Avatar replaces Merlin Chopin. Clarity and presence is boosted, but once more I feel that longer periods of listening could prove tiring. The forward brashness of the A400 is hard to tame. I don't really have the time to try every combination of I/C and speaker cable, never mind experiment with speaker positioning and so forth.

Finally, I switched back to the Audiolabs. Immediately, the sound appeared to be muted and veiled. I had a not-so-vague feeling of disquiet - I have to admit that the open brashness of the Pioneer A400 has its charm. The accuracy, the delivery, is simply hard to believe relative to what it is being pitted against. When I purchased my original 8000S in the '90s it cost £500 approx. Now, an upstart of a Pioneer is challenging two of them combined!

Ah, but here's the rub: as much as I enjoy the sound coming from the lone Pioneer in terms of delivering presence, detail and liveliness (assuming you combine the right cables), I still believe it can be too much over extended periods, given my kit and circumstances. Based on sheer value for money, I have to say the A400 wins hands-down, but as I listen to my system with bi-amped Audiolabs, I recognise that there are compromises to be made (although clearly not in terms of expense!) The music I am listening to right now is pretty darned good; the cymbals are clean and zingy, the voices realistic enough, the bass punchy, etc, but maybe not quite as clean and precise as they might be with the A400. And yet I am happy to keep typing and listening when I really should stop and retire for the night. With the Pioneer, I suspect I would have stopped some time ago.

[Beginning of Third Evening] Deep down I have the vague suspicion that: a) I am resisting a change to the Pioneer amp because I'm stubborn and conservative, and b) the two Audiolabs cost a combined £700+ (albeit over 12 years apart) whereas the Pioneer was a mere £100 (plus P&P). I am going against the allegedly British need to support the underdog. Possibly so, but let's face it, the two Audiolabs look classier together and can be controlled via one remote (which, incidentally, also controls the Marantz CDP). Where's the remote for the Pioneer, eh? And then there's that weird creep of the music over to the right - surely that can't be, er, right? With the Audiolabs everything is centred as it should be. They seem to offer a preferable balance, particularly if I edge the dial up to approx 10 o'clock at which point the system begins to sing, dropping the veiled sound I detected by comparison with the Pioneer yester eve. Yes, the Pioneer delivers more by 9 o'clock (cue innuendos), but maybe it's just too much for me?

OK, as I sit here, finishing this post at the beginning of evening three out of four, listening to Pendragon's 'Acoustically Challenged' via the current config of choice, I have to admit that it sounds like the challenger is going to feature on Fleabay in the near future.

No, dammit, I have further opportunities in May as my OH is called away by work commitments. For now I will pack the Pioneer away to the front room and concentrate on the Audiolab set-up.

 

[Anonymous]

nice review .... however, looking at your photo's, you may get better results with both the A400 and the Audiolabs if the system were in a listening room where you have more space for the speakers (obviously this not possible in your current listening room where the speakers are currently placed)

Here is a speaker placement calculator which is a rough guideline ...

 

[idc]

ESP, I'm with dim_span here. IMHO you need to sort out your room and speaker placement before you try and improve the sound by tinkering with cables.

 

[ESP2009]

Thanks for your concern Dim-span and IDC - understandable! But, my dear chaps, if only it were that simple! For the sake of domestic harmony let's just say that WYSIWYG as far as a listening room goes. In the past I may have made reference to this, but purely and simply I can only make do with what I have in terms of location and tweak from there.

To be fair, when I listen to such albums as 'Acoustically Challenged' and 'My One & Only Thrill' I am happy with what I hear. True, I cannot help but wonder whether it could sound better with the equipment I already have, but in better circumstances or, indeed, what it could really sound like with even better kit and listening room. However, basically, the reality is that I can only strive to achieve what the environment will allow.

Therefore, like a squirrel, I hoard bits and pieces I have been acquiring just in case things do change. I also like to experiment a little with whatever takes my fancy from the forum threads in the hope that a worthwhile improvement occurs. Varying cable combinations has made a difference (as the earlier post reveals). Quite whether the differences have been optimal is another question.

I am going to tidy up a little now, take a look at the threads covering best test albums and see what Spotify and my own CD collection offers. Certainly, some albums I play sound disappointing, whereas others (like Melody Gardot's) sound great. Again, is this production or reproduction? Well, let's see...

 

[Craig M.]

if you don't conceal the cables, i bet she kills you.

 

[chebby]

ESP2009:Thanks for your concern Dim-span and IDC - understandable! But, my dear chaps, if only it were that simple! For the sake of domestic harmony let's just say that WYSIWYG as far as a listening room goes.

You mean you don't have a selection of dedicated 'listening rooms'?

Peasant

 

[ESP2009]

chebby:

ESP2009:Thanks for your concern Dim-span and IDC - understandable! But, my dear chaps, if only it were that simple! For the sake of domestic harmony let's just say that WYSIWYG as far as a listening room goes.

You mean you don't have a selection of dedicated 'listening rooms'?

Peasant

Yes, but quite a pleasant peasant.

 

[ESP2009]

Craig M.:if you don't conceal the cables, i bet she kills you.

Yes, I was considering some nice chintz curtains...oh, and putting the VCR back in the stack (for balance at least!)

 

[Anonymous]

Hear what you say, and unfortunately will cost a bit to sort out....

get a hifi rack similar to this:

move your cds to somewhere else in the room .... get a tv that mounts on the wall ....

this will give you more space to move your speakers away from the corners (especially the left hand side) ... and the speakers may need to be moved further away from the back wall

my experience has shown me that it makes a huge difference

 

[ESP2009]

dim_span:

Hear what you say, and unfortunately will cost a bit to sort out....

get a hifi rack similar to this:

In the meantime, I reckon I will glacially adjust the speakers - she'll never guess!

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, I can dream!

 

[ESP2009]

Well, as you so accurately pointed out, I am somewhat limited by my lack of proper listening room, so there's only so much bargains will do before being stifled by their surroundings.

Still, "never say never..."

 

[idc]

I would head down to Ikea and look for a tall CD storage tower and something else to put your TV on with solid shelves below for the hifi. Then you have more space for the left speaker to be moved out.

When I got a decent rack for my hifi it improved the bass and clarity. Yours looks wobbly and not even level. You need to sort that first.

 

[the record spot]

I understand your predicament. I hear these guys can help with rearranging your room. Bit drastic admittedly.