New speakers and/or room treatment?

[Cpt.Issues]

Good Evening All,

Recently swapped out my Roksan Kandy and Benchmark DAC1 for a Cyrus 8xpd. The amp is exactly what I was after in terms of size and incorporating a DAC and I love the sound of it through my headphones however paired with my MA RX1's and new lounge (high ceiling/bare walls at the moment) the sound is a bit too bright/live and has a lot of echo.

In the next few months I expect to clutter up the place a bit and a false ceiling is going in which will be acoustically insulated/treated (mainly to isolate me and my upstairs neighbour) though I hope dropping the height should help a bit.

What I don't want to end up doing is shelling out loads on an pair of decent standmounts but have the sound ruined by bad room acoustics so I expect to have to compromise somewhere.

Being happy to go with new or second-hand kit what would be the best way to split £1250 on A) Speakers to suit the 8xpd? B) Room treatment?

Also has anyone here had experience with lounge friendly acoustic treatment solutions? I'm currently toying with the DIY idea of mounting studio acoustic foam in a frame and covering with fabric to stop the echoing and make the room a bit less bright. I've seen lounge friendly 'art' panels etc. but these seem to be in the region of £150 - £250 each Complete home studio kits are available from about £200 but my lounge would resemble some sort of post apocalyptic grey egg box contoured grey foam catastrophe!

:hat:

 

[Overdose]

You could make your own acoustic panels from timber battens and rockwool slab. A pack of slabs should be around £40 tops depending on thickness. Use an open weave cloth, something like speaker grill material for example. You will also need some sheets of thin fibreboard for the panel backing.

Place the panels at the main reflection points, ie behind your head, behind the speakers and to the sides of the room where you would see the speakers if there were a mirror there.

Spend the other £1150 on speakers.

 

[Cpt.Issues]

Exactly the response I was hoping to find, thank you sir that is a cracking suggestion.

 

[Al ears]

Personally I think that no end of room treatment will make the RXs sound the way you would like. I'd just get the ceiling done, furnish it as you intend and then go and home audition a few speakers to suit the room as is. You'll find one eventually and saved a few quid on unnecessary room treatment.

 

[Overdose]

Personally I think that no end of room treatment will make the RXs sound the way you would like. I'd just get the ceiling done, furnish it as you intend and then go and home audition a few speakers to suit the room as is. You'll find one eventually and saved a few quid on unnecessary room treatment.

I think you rather underestimate how much 'room effects' affect the sound and if 'furnish it as you intend' means a sparse amount of furniture (as it does if you like a minimalist look) and other accessories, then expect an overly lively room.

I think another forum member commented that the room is the sound of the speakers and he is about right, because the environment that the speakers are used in, has the single biggest effect on how they sound.

 

[Craig M.]

Personally I think that no end of room treatment will make the RXs sound the way you would like. I'd just get the ceiling done, furnish it as you intend and then go and home audition a few speakers to suit the room as is. You'll find one eventually and saved a few quid on unnecessary room treatment.

I think you rather underestimate how much 'room effects' affect the sound and if 'furnish it as you intend' means a sparse amount of furniture (as it does if you like a minimalist look) and other accessories, then expect an overly lively room.

I think another forum member commented that the room is the sound of the speakers and he is about right, because the environment that the speakers are used in, has the single biggest effect on how they sound.

Yup, I've had a reflective room in the past. Get it sorted. Standing in the middle of the room and loudly clapping your hands can give you a basic idea of how reverberant it is.

 

[DocG]

Don't underestimate the effect of an acoustic suspended ceiling on the overall sound. And it is the least intrusive room treatment there is.

So I agree with Alears: have the ceiling done, bring on the seats and rugs, and see where that brings you. You can always add some wall panels in a later stage if needed.

 

[Overdose]

Don't underestimate the effect of an acoustic suspended ceiling on the overall sound. And it is the least intrusive room treatment there is.

So I agree with Alears: have the ceiling done, bring on the seats and rugs, and see where that brings you. You can always add some wall panels in a later stage if needed.

I wouldn't underestimate any acoustic treatment, but surely an entire suspended ceiling is more obtrusive than a few fabric covered wall hangings that may as well be art?

If you are half handy with some basic DIY skills and not a sausage fingured clutz, the wall panels will be by far and away the most cost effective solution for improving sound in most rooms. It doesn't really matter what furnishings are in the room either, because if the main reflection points are bare wall, then expect potential problems, particularly if you sit with your back against a bare wall.

 

[letsavit2]

I'm in the speakers and acoustics make the biggest difference after say £250 separates. My room is wood floors and shutters, not a lot of fabric.

I have 3 GIK acoustics panels in my room, walls are white and so are there panels so there not that opposing. One behind each speaker and one behind the listener, me. Also have a deep pile rug in front of the speakers.

The GIK panels where cheap enough for me not to even bother of making my own.

 

[MakkaPakka]

People who dismiss room treatment seem to be those that can't have it for domestic reasons so they convince themselves it's not important. . How many people who say room treatment isn't all that important have actually tried proper treatment in their room or taken frequency repsonse measurements of their room before commenting?

If your room measures relatively flat across the frequency range then you will be getting the best from your speakers. A room won't measure flat by chance - it would have to have perfect dimensions. It is easy to check how a room measures by spending £15 on an SPL meter and connecting it to a PC with REW (which is free). Do this then you can see how much treatment you need and where by re-measuring the room every time you change something. It takes a while but once the process is done you can forget all about it knowing that you'll be getting every penny of performance from your kit. You'll also be able to get perfect placement of listener and speakers - being able to see things on graphs is far more accurate than relying on your ears. I have lots of graphs now.

Building acoustic panels is pretty easy, it just takes a little time. This is the best method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ6mI450c4

I used a cheap saw and mitre box and a cheap staple gun - no need for anything heavy duty.

You can get a pack of 9 50mm rockwool slabs for £34 on ebay. The best fabric to use (which is what GIK and other manufacturers use) is Camira - again, available from ebay. It isn't particularly cheap but it's very good quality, looks nice and won't tear when stretched over a frame. The off-white colour that GIK sell is very inoffensive in a room.

You're looking at about £25-30 per panel roughly speaking. If you buy the panels ready-made it will be £50-80.

Corners - particularly behind the speakers are the most important place to treat as that's where the bass waves resonate and destroy your nice music.

I do strongly recommend actually measuring the room and understanding what you're doing rather than just throwing panels on the wall. You only need to understand the basics to get a really good sounding room.

 

[Cpt.Issues]

Thanks for all the tips guys, I've had a good look round some acoustic treatment sites/youtube etc. and have a plan in my head now of where I want to try the bass traps and acoustic panels.

The ceiling will be done at some point soon purely as isolation between me and my upstairs neighbour regardless which is circa £1600 but I'm not factoring that into the 'HiFi' cost.

Going to try out bass traps behind the speakers/bare corners, couple of panels on a side wall adjacent to one of the speakers, one on the wall in between the two speakers and three panels arranged on the wall directly opposite the speakers and where the listening position is in the middle of the room.

Currently walking round the lounge with the bathroom mirror looking like a nutter :rofl:

At the moment if I click my fingers in the middle of the room I can hear the echo for what seems like nearly a whole second afterwards.

 

[Cpt.Issues]

Don't underestimate the effect of an acoustic suspended ceiling on the overall sound. And it is the least intrusive room treatment there is.

So I agree with Alears: have the ceiling done, bring on the seats and rugs, and see where that brings you. You can always add some wall panels in a later stage if needed.

Thanks, the ceiling will be done in a couple of months but will drop the height by about 6" so is going to be slightly invasive in that respect. There are thinner options but they mostly seem to include affixing things to the existing ceiling whereas the independant one provides better isolation at least so I'm led to believe and as I live in an old building that has been converted to flats a long time ago the ceiling is high - 10' 6" ish but seems very thin. Luckily impact noise isn't an issue it is just acoustic transmission, my neighbour and I can both hear each other's TVs at normal volumes and conversations etc. Plus I want to get rid of the dodgy artexing

 

[letsavit2]

Man if you can hear an echo from a finger click you have acoustic problems no speakers in the world will resolve. If you are lucky and have a nice wife that don't mind, or even luckier like me who has no wife anymore then get some panels on your wall and a big **** of rug!

 

[Al ears]

Personally I think that no end of room treatment will make the RXs sound the way you would like. I'd just get the ceiling done, furnish it as you intend and then go and home audition a few speakers to suit the room as is. You'll find one eventually and saved a few quid on unnecessary room treatment.

I think you rather underestimate how much 'room effects' affect the sound and if 'furnish it as you intend' means a sparse amount of furniture (as it does if you like a minimalist look) and other accessories, then expect an overly lively room.

I think another forum member commented that the room is the sound of the speakers and he is about right, because the environment that the speakers are used in, has the single biggest effect on how they sound.

I think you misunderstood my post. I am well aware of 'room treatment' having performed such projects some time ago when i lived in a large old Victorian property.

It has it's place, however, there are proponents on this forum that think room treatment is everything and this, in the vast majority of cases is unnecessary, if the right speaker can be utilised in the first place.

In most modern buildings, normally furnished and even with wooden floors, room treatment is not necessary unless you a trying to employ some speakers with a very strange frequency response. However if you are trying to set up a hifi system inside a tin box then there may be a need for said treatment.

I was merely suggesting the OP gets the required ceiling work done first and the tries a soundcheck again with some different speakers. If this is still not satisfactory then this is the point that he should consider further room treatment methods. (A well-padded armchair stuffed in a corner can make quite a difference and you can sit on it!)

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Searchhere, inc my sig and elsewhere. Lots of ideas for room treatment.

 

[lindsayt]

In my house room treatment includes: fitting wall to wall carpets, hanging thick wallpaper, placing armchairs, sofas coffee tables, having plenty of vinyl storage packed with records, having some book storage, doing some basic experimentation with speaker positioning.

When you look at photos of anechoic chambers you'll see that the walls look similar to bookshelves. It's all about having sticky-out shapes to break up the sound waves.

I think that after paying for rugs, carpets, furniture etc that Cpt.Issues may well have enough left over from his budget to get speakers that he'd prefer to the MA RX1's. I don't see why he can't have his cake and eat it. Better room acoustics as well as better speakers.

 

[Overdose]

I was merely suggesting the OP gets the required ceiling work done first and the tries a soundcheck again with some different speakers. If this is still not satisfactory then this is the point that he should consider further room treatment methods. (A well-padded armchair stuffed in a corner can make quite a difference and you can sit on it!)

Install one of these, job done.

 

[Al ears]

Searchhere, inc my sig and elsewhere. Lots of ideas for room treatment.

I rest my case m'lud!

 

[Al ears]

I was merely suggesting the OP gets the required ceiling work done first and the tries a soundcheck again with some different speakers. If this is still not satisfactory then this is the point that he should consider further room treatment methods. (A well-padded armchair stuffed in a corner can make quite a difference and you can sit on it!)

Install one of these, job done.

You'll need 4, one in each corner. (Don't forget behind the speakers - that sneaky sound goes backwards as well!)

 

[letsavit2]

I agree if you have plenty of soft furnishings, carpet and curtains then your room should be fine. In my case I had wooden floors, wooden window shutters and not a lot of furniture. So instead of going out and buying things I don't need to clutter my room up I purchased 3 white panels and put them on white walls. Has helped, especially as my speakers are in an alcove and like most I don't have a dedicated music room so have tried to do the best with what I have. I think they look cool too!