New Setup

[James83]

So ive decided its time to get something which my CDs will sound vaguely better on. Up to now ive been using poor mini hifi systems with poor speakers. I also have some vinyl I'd like to start playing. However, I dont want a full seperate system, and my musical ears arent tuned enough to warrant spending thousands. This is also very new to me.

So, my initial thought was perhaps a Denon F109DAB with better speakers, plus a Rega RP1 turntable.

Couple of questions- Can a turntable to plugged straight into the F109? Also, what speakers? Im thinking perhaps something like the Q Acoustic 2020i's, or the 3020s. However there is part of me that thinks it might be nice to push the boat out and go for a pair of Rega RS1s, which seem to be available at reasonable money. Im assuming the RS1s are infinitely better than the 3020s? But would the RS1s be overkill for such a system?

I wont be playing loud music at all. Its more the detail im after. My music i think warrants something vaguely decent even with my musical (or lack of) ears. The likes of Mark Knopfler, Eric Clapton, Fleetwood Mac etc etc.

Anyone any advice or comments? All help greatly appreciated.

James

 

[Blackdawn]

Hi, I have noticed the Denon F109DAB is now at a good price. It has digital inputs and analogue inputs x2 but I can't see a phono input, so you would have to get a seperate phono amp. On the plus side it has DAB + and FM radio. The system is like mini seperates if you have less space. If you play a lot of vinyl I would be tempted to go for proper full size seperates and get an amp with built-in phono stage. Also in general it would be worth saving up for seperates. For speakers I would look at the Wharfedale Diamonds or Dali speakers.

 

[matthewpiano]

If you want something which is feature heavy and compact I'd suggest the Marantz MCR610 as the best way to go, with a pair of Dali Zensor 1s or Q Acoustics 3020s. You'll still need to add a phono stage to this unit.

Otherwise, I agree with Blackdawn, you would be better looking at seperates. You could actually do much worse than going for something similar to Blackdawn's system - EG Cambridge Audio 351C CD player, Pioneer A30 amp, and Dali Zensor 1 speakers. Alternatively the Denon DCD720AE is a fantastic CD player for the money, and partnered with the PMA720AE amp (which has a decent phono stage just like the Pioneer) and Dali Zensor 1s or Q Acoustics 3020s would make a very nice set-up.

 

[James83]

Thanks. I shall take a look at the seperates mentioned. Just depends how much it all comes to. Also, if i wanted DAB, id have to add another seperate, and then the cost rises even more. I dont have a lot of space either, hence why my initial Denon idea. Also, I wont be playing a lot of vinyl. Just I do have 3 albums on vinyl which it would be nice to use.

One thing i forgot to mention. I wouldnt be bothering with the network set on the Denon, as i dont require anything feature heavy. It would purely be the CD player and combined Amp/ DAB radio. For less than £250 it seems pretty good value. Can your seperates beat that, even after i have added on a phono stage? As I said, my lack of tuned ears probably dont warrant heavy spending.

Saying that, neither have suggested my back up speaker option of the RS1s, yet I see Matthew is soon to be changing to these!! Are these overkill for my needs? Will I notice a difference between say the 3020s and the RS1s? Id quite happily spend a bit extra for some decent British made speakers if they will improve things.

Ta.

 

[DocG]

Separate boxes give you flexibility: you can swap whichever component of your set whenever you like.

OTOH, they need more space. Might burn more electricity. And you pay for all the separate casings, and that's a big chunk of the total cost in your price range. If the budget is tight, I would go for compact system, and spend relatively more on the speakers (unless you want to start swapping boxes rather sooner than later).

As for the speakers: trust your ears. Yours are as good as anybody's (really!), and only you can decide if the price difference is worth it for you. When going for a demo, do take your amp with you (that is not a weird thing to do), unless the dealer has your amp (or a very similar model) in the showroom.

 

[James83]

Another quickie. Looking for the Denon 720s, I can find the 710s on this site, but dont seem to find the 720s but elsewhere can only find prices for the 720s. Are 720s an updated version?

I take it the Denon 720 CD player and Amp would be better than my initial compact Denon idea? If so, Matthews idea could just be a winner, as the prices ive found seem very reasonable.

 

[matthewpiano]

The 720s replaced the 710s and, as you say, they are available for some great prices. I've owned the 720s and used them with several different speakers and they were consistently good.

The RS1s have a particular type of sound and you need to hear them to be sure they are for you. I love them, but one of the reasons for this is the synergy you get with an all-Rega system.

 

[James83]

Thanks Matthew. Yep, those 720s look just the trick. If I can forgo the DAB radio then the prices are about the same, considering I would need a phono stage with my initial plan. I should be able to survive without DAB, as I will still be keeping the mini hifi I currently have, and to be honest, its usually in the car where i listen to the radio.

The Cambridge Audio CD player you mentioned does seem very good, but I cant warrant those prices for the time being. Splashing out such a sum in one go on a music system doesnt sit well with me!! But hey, perhaps over time i'll upgrade to the all Rega system!!!!

One question, just to make sure im thinking along the right lines. The phono stage id need for the Denon compact seperates i first mentioned. Would the Rega Fono MM or Fono Mini A2D cover that? Is that the sort of thing you are all talking about? Sorry, my knowledge is severely lacking on this subject. Ive only recently realised there are differences between CD players and how they sound, and that some CD players cost over a grand. Gulp!!

 

[Blackdawn]

Hi again, if you have few vinyl to play I wouldn't worry too much about this as a source to begin with. So you could hold off on buying a phono stage. If your main source is CD or radio concentrate on that. Whether you go down compact all in one or seperates you will still need to budget for extras like speaker cable and possibly interconnects. If you don't already have some, then speaker stands are quite important but not essential. Best to audition a few systems (all in ones and seperates) and see what you like. It make take a bit of saving but will be worth it in the end. If you don't want to spend so much I would consider second hand gear.

 

[James83]

Hi Blackdawn. Yeah i'll just be worrying about CD for now. DAB ive decided i can probably live without, so I'll either take it or leave it. Depends on what i go for. Looking at prices it'll probably be the F109 or 720s. Prices are similar if I add in the fact id eventually need a phono stage with the F109, plus both are getting good reviews. I shall check out a couple of others and see what i think though, like that Pioneer A30 amp. Theres always the chance nothing sounds any better to me, and i dont get anything! Just stick with my mini panasonic lol

Interconnects? Youve lost me! Speaker stands wont be happening im afraid. They will be sitting on a shelf/ table/ desk. I'll just switch from Layla to a bit of Mozart if the speakers start dancing around!!!!!

Price wise, its not so much what i can/ cannot afford (although Naim may be out of the question!!), but more a case that I dont want to spend large sums on this sort of thing and that i believe spending moderate sums should suffice for me. Just something that sounds better than what ive got. Second hand is a possibility and could be looked at.

 

[rainsoothe]

hi

I've heard Marantz + Dali several times, and always there's something like Dire Straits / Eric Clapton playing on it, and, imo, they're perfect for it. I, for one, am gonna second the Marantz MCR 610 for both functionality and great sound. It has everything, besides a phono stage. Also, a pair of Dali Zensor 3 or at least Zensor 1 will match it perfectly. As for phono stage, Rega Fono Mini A2D or Pro-Ject Phono Box oughtta be enough. And, personally, I would look at Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB 2M-Red instead.

If you wanna go Rega, go at least RP3 Exact or 2M Blue + Musical Fidelity V90LPS or Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE as phono stage.

If you decide you wanna go for separates, I would recommend the following two options:

1. (cheaper) Marantz PM6005 + Marantz CD6004 + Dali Zensor 3 (the PM 6005 amp has a built in phono stage, so you can plug your turntable straight into that one) - + the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB 2M-Red.

2. (not as "cheaper") Arcam FMJ A19 + Cambridge Audio Azur 351C (cd player) + B&W 685 S2 or Focal Aria 906. The Arcam also has a built-in phono stage, so a Rega RP3 2M Blue would be a good match methinks.

BTW: I just downgraded from Supernait 2 + Martin Logan Motion 40 system (which I loved, and is a combo i'd still recommend) because of financial reasons and overkill system for a 16 sq meter livingroom, and I got a great deal as a turn-in for my speakers, and got Arcam FMJ A19 + Focal Aria 906. I'm using them with a Naim Dac V1 and the combination sounds absolutely delicious. I love it to bits, although it's a different presentation from the Naim, it's warmer and more relaxed, but still detailed and beautiful. I had no Idea that kind of sound could be had for that kind of money.

Oh, and ofc: try to audition the stuff. But, for what you listen to, you can never go wrong with Marantz + Dali imo.

 

[Blackdawn]

Hi, interconnects are vital to connect your sources to your amp. For example, a cd player. Speaker cable - Decent oxygen free copper cables. 2.5mm- 6mm should be perfectly good and wont cost the earth. Bare wires are fine and you dont need to terminate the ends of speaker cable with spades or banana plugs, just make sure you dont have any stray bits of wire. I agree a moderate sum should be perfectly fine to get a decent quality sound and one thats better than your mini system. Thats why i think seperates are the way forward and will give you the greatest jump in quality over what you already have. Although you will not get double the improvement if you spend double the price, you'll still get benefits in almost all areas, like soundstage, clarity, timing, bass quality etc.

I noticed quite a large improvement with stands, so worth investing at a later date.

Best to audition a few systems so you know what kind of improvement to expect and whether you think its worth the upgrade.

 

[James83]

RainSoothe. Marantz 6005/ 6004 are a nice idea, but you are now raising the amount of money I spend! One of the main reasons of looking at full size seperates now is because of the good prices of the Denons. The Dali speakers I will look into though. Some nice ideas to try out.

As for turntable. It'll be the RP1 im afraid. Im not upping to the RP3, and im not willing to look beyond a Rega in this department. Thanks for the suggestion, but you hit my stubborn side!!!

 

[James83]

Hi Blackdawn. Now i know what you mean by interconnects. Yep, id taken them as a given. Ta for the suggestion on speaker cables. Beats the little wires you get on the mini's!!!

 

[newworld]

BTW: I just downgraded from Supernait 2 + Martin Logan Motion 40 system (which I loved, and is a combo i'd still recommend) because of financial reasons and overkill system for a 16 sq meter livingroom, and I got a great deal as a turn-in for my speakers, and got Arcam FMJ A19 + Focal Aria 906. I'm using them with a Naim Dac V1 and the combination sounds absolutely delicious. I love it to bits, although it's a different presentation from the Naim, it's warmer and more relaxed, but still detailed and beautiful. I had no Idea that kind of sound could be had for that kind of money.

Oh, and ofc: try to audition the stuff. But, for what you listen to, you can never go wrong with Marantz + Dali imo.

This is interesting for me, because I have the Supernait 2 and some Proac's, and I sometimes think about downgrading. Not that it doesn't sound fantastic, but I know that the same level of satisfaction can be had at a much lower price. Arcam FMJ A19 and even cheaper speakers like the Wharfedale 10.1's produce great results.

 

[rainsoothe]

BTW: I just downgraded from Supernait 2 + Martin Logan Motion 40 system (which I loved, and is a combo i'd still recommend) because of financial reasons and overkill system for a 16 sq meter livingroom, and I got a great deal as a turn-in for my speakers, and got Arcam FMJ A19 + Focal Aria 906. I'm using them with a Naim Dac V1 and the combination sounds absolutely delicious. I love it to bits, although it's a different presentation from the Naim, it's warmer and more relaxed, but still detailed and beautiful. I had no Idea that kind of sound could be had for that kind of money.

Oh, and ofc: try to audition the stuff. But, for what you listen to, you can never go wrong with Marantz + Dali imo.

This is interesting for me, because I have the Supernait 2 and some Proac's, and I sometimes think about downgrading. Not that it doesn't sound fantastic, but I know that the same level of satisfaction can be had at a much lower price. Arcam FMJ A19 and even cheaper speakers like the Wharfedale 10.1's produce great results.

Indeed. Well, I can definately feel the limitation of the new system, but it's still really enjoyable. The SN2 + Motion40's were really overkill for my 16 sq meter living room. Wish I had a house with a 60 sq meter living room for them though, so I can blast the Prog thru them though - gonna miss the Naim

 

[James83]

Following on from RainSoothes recommendation of Marantz and Dali, it seems as though this is now very possible within the budget I had tried to set myself.
Found one website (audible fidelity was it?) offering a package of PM6005 and Dali 1s, for around £370. Assuming a speaker price of £200, that leaves the Marantz amp at about the same price as you can find the Denon 720 amp for.

Now obviously I will test all the options out first, but going by reports, Id assume the Marantz is a slight upgrade over the Denon?
Id probably still go with the Denon CD player though. Keeps the spiralling costs down!!
As I say though, obviously everything will be tested first.

I do get the impression this will end up being overkill for my small livingroom, but hey ho! That's if I can even find somewhere to put it in the livingroom! May have to go in the even smaller bedroom!

 

[matthewpiano]

Having owned both I would say the Marantz is no better than the Denon, and thanks to those horrid plastic panels to the left and right of the Marantz fascia, the Denon feels higher quality IME, though this is a presentation thing rather than reflecting any difference in the quality of the internal engineering. There is also something about both the Marantz and Denon designs (which both have a bit of character) that means they look better when you stick with the same brand for both amp and CD player.

You might find this review interesting reading: http://www.hifiklubben.com/files/Test/Denon/Denon-720AE-Hi-FiChoice201212.pdf.

 

[James83]

Thanks for that Matthew. Definitely a need to test them all and see for sure.
The Denon review on this site was a bit off putting. Making out as though it couldn't handle the slower tracks. Anyways, I shall eventually see.

 

[matthewpiano]

Thanks for that Matthew. Definitely a need to test them all and see for sure. The Denon review on this site was a bit off putting. Making out as though it couldn't handle the slower tracks. Anyways, I shall eventually see.

I have to say the WHFS&V review of the Denon amp is ridiculous. The idea that an amp can set or change the tempo of the music is laughable. It can't. Furthermore I've heard gentle acoustic music of all kinds sound quite lovely on this amp. As you say, the key thing is to get out there and listen for yourself. Enjoy that process, and let us know how you get on.

 

[James83]

I also thought the review sounded a bit wierd, but my lack of knowledge left me perhaps thinking there is more to an amp than I imagined. Good to know I'm not totally daft. Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps the reviewer had accidentally put a vinyl on, and sped it up for the slower tempo tracks!!!!

As soon as i get back home in a few days, it'll be off to start the listening process! Just got to find a decent local shop!

 

[slice]

Following on from RainSoothes recommendation of Marantz and Dali, it seems as though this is now very possible within the budget I had tried to set myself. Found one website (audible fidelity was it?) offering a package of PM6005 and Dali 1s, for around £370. Assuming a speaker price of £200, that leaves the Marantz amp at about the same price as you can find the Denon 720 amp for.

Now obviously I will test all the options out first, but going by reports, Id assume the Marantz is a slight upgrade over the Denon? Id probably still go with the Denon CD player though. Keeps the spiralling costs down!! As I say though, obviously everything will be tested first.

I do get the impression this will end up being overkill for my small livingroom, but hey ho! That's if I can even find somewhere to put it in the livingroom! May have to go in the even smaller bedroom!

If you got the marantz 6005 rather than denon amp, it has digital inputs, so your earlier issue of dab etc would be solved by running radio channels off the tv or freeview box by an optical cable, depending on what you listen to?

 

[James83]

Ta. Never even realised one had digital inputs and the other didn't. What if you added a DAB tuner to the seperates at some point? Can that run through analogue inputs into the amp?

 

[Blackdawn]

That is one of the benefits of seperates, you can connect various sources such as a tuner, turntable, tv, cd, tape etc. You could buy a seperate dab tuner and connect it to the analogue inputs of the amp. Freeview doesn't have all the stations that dab seems to.

 

[James83]

I suspect I may eventually add a tuner to the setup. Assuming of course i do go down the full size seperates system.

Its a lot more flexible that way than connecting it to the TV. Plus I dont restrict myself to only those amps that have digital inputs.