new R700-900 or used Reference 205/2 (or even CM9/10)

[mgavran]

Hi

i am newbie but learning... hearing and testing... maybe my dilemma is of interest to this community

I own a recently fully refreshed Sansui G7000 and old Coda 9 floorstanders (previously on Technics Vx700)..Listening CDs on also already vintage CD Technics 770A and Mac Mini freshly hooked to CambridgeAudio DACMagic 100.

I realised the speakers now are the worst part of the chain- tried at friends XQ40 , much better. So decided to change, after only 20 years, in fact because of new toy, the SANSUI.

I have brought the G7000 in the shop , nice people were full of respect and we tested KEF R500, some Monitor Audio and Q900... decided that I like the R500 but the volume of Q900 was showing the way to go..

R500 had great stage, definition was so sweet, Q900 could not come to be discussed any longer (though) the sales guy was sure i was the buyer, maybe (mis)judging my budget, appetite based on SANSUI vintage monster box. They had no R700 in the shop.

My target is to find a great speaker and to have best sound out of the current rest of the system. Not excluding that I may decide to upgrade later. But, i am so happy with the G7000 it is so nice and warm i am ready to live in the limitation of this concept of amp and vintage tech (from my youth - i am 49 now).

So, i am looking for solution that will give me the best sound for easy listening, classic, jazz, rock as well on the sofa or a chair in the fairly large space (two connected rooms of 12x14 each, living/study). The listening area is on the shorter side end, and it is used occasionally for movies as well.

i envisage the budget estimate of 1.5-2k and that shall bring KEF r700 or 900.... BUT !!! Recently i was offered a Reference 205/2 7 years old. Nevertheless I will have them at home next weekend if I want (sure I want and try them myself. their price is close to my budget .....

Besides this I am planning to go and audition the CM9 , CM10 S2 in the shop on the G7000. I am aware that G7000 may not be able to fee such high end hungry beasts all the way, but at my listening levels I am brave to try it.. based on its rating i estimate that can work at half power still even on 3.1Ohm that declared specs warn me..

Any opinions, please?

thanks!!

 

[jjbomber]

Hi

I own a recently fully refreshed Sansui G7000 and old Coda 9 floorstanders (previously on Technics Vx700)..Listening CDs on also already vintage CD Technics 770A and Mac Mini freshly hooked to CambridgeAudio DACMagic 100.

I have brought the G7000 in the shop , nice people were full of respect and we tested KEF R500, some Monitor Audio and Q900... decided that I like the R500 but the volume of Q900 was showing the way to go..

i envisage the budget estimate of 1.5-2k and that shall bring KEF r700 or 900.... BUT !!! Recently i was offered a Reference 205/2 7 years old. Nevertheless I will have them at home next weekend if I want (sure I want and try them myself. their price is close to my budget .....

I am aware that G7000 may not be able to fee such high end hungry beasts all the way, but at my listening levels I am brave to try it.

thanks!!

Bit confusing. You say the volume of the Q900 showed the way to go. Then you want the KEF Reference but know that the G7000 will struggle at volume. I don't think the Sansui will drive the References, but if you are confident that you can sell them on if it doesn't work out, then give it a go. Otherwise stick to what you have auditioned.

 

[iceman16]

My vote is for the ref 205/2

 

[CnoEvil]

I have the 205/2s and they are excellent speakers....but....they (IMO) are pretty ruthless and need to be on the end of a fairly good system. I suspect that the R Series would work better, but if you have the chance to try it...

 

[Frank Harvey]

The 205/2s are demanding speakers, very revealing of the accompanying equipment, and need careful amplifier matching for them to sound as they were designed to. They're still one of my favourite speakers.

Personally, I think the Reference is reaching a little far, and the R Series is a more achievable goal for your current system.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Hi

i am newbie but learning... hearing and testing... maybe my dilemma is of interest to this community

I own a recently fully refreshed Sansui G7000 and old Coda 9 floorstanders (previously on Technics Vx700)..Listening CDs on also already vintage CD Technics 770A and Mac Mini freshly hooked to CambridgeAudio DACMagic 100.

I realised the speakers now are the worst part of the chain- tried at friends XQ40 , much better. So decided to change, after only 20 years, in fact because of new toy, the SANSUI.

I have brought the G7000 in the shop , nice people were full of respect and we tested KEF R500, some Monitor Audio and Q900... decided that I like the R500 but the volume of Q900 was showing the way to go..

R500 had great stage, definition was so sweet, Q900 could not come to be discussed any longer (though) the sales guy was sure i was the buyer, maybe (mis)judging my budget, appetite based on SANSUI vintage monster box. They had no R700 in the shop.

My target is to find a great speaker and to have best sound out of the current rest of the system. Not excluding that I may decide to upgrade later. But, i am so happy with the G7000 it is so nice and warm i am ready to live in the limitation of this concept of amp and vintage tech (from my youth - i am 49 now).

So, i am looking for solution that will give me the best sound for easy listening, classic, jazz, rock as well on the sofa or a chair in the fairly large space (two connected rooms of 12x14 each, living/study). The listening area is on the shorter side end, and it is used occasionally for movies as well.

i envisage the budget estimate of 1.5-2k and that shall bring KEF r700 or 900.... BUT !!! Recently i was offered a Reference 205/2 7 years old. Nevertheless I will have them at home next weekend if I want (sure I want and try them myself. their price is close to my budget .....

Besides this I am planning to go and audition the CM9 , CM10 S2 in the shop on the G7000. I am aware that G7000 may not be able to fee such high end hungry beasts all the way, but at my listening levels I am brave to try it.. based on its rating i estimate that can work at half power still even on 3.1Ohm that declared specs warn me..

Any opinions, please?

thanks!!

?

?

 

Ita easy to say that the 205/2 reference speakers are the much better speakers but id be very careful not to match them with an amp not up to the job. Ive got r700s and they are very good but even they were to much for my roksan kandy k2 - thats why i ended up getting a new amp. Only problem now is i want even better speakers to go with the amp. I really like the look of those 205/2s!

 

[Andrewjvt]

I have the 205/2s and they are excellent speakers....but....they (IMO) are pretty ruthless and need to be on the end of a fairly good system. I suspect that the R Series would work better, but if you have the chance to try it...

I know i get people mixed up but was convinced you had r series or ls50s? Id love to hear your kef205/2s. How much better are they than the r700s.
Btw what amp is driving them and are they front or rear ported?

 

[CnoEvil]

I know i get people mixed up but was convinced you had r series or ls50s? Id love to hear your kef205/2s. How much better are they than the r700s.
Btw what amp is driving them and are they front or rear ported?

Hi Andrew, I'm not surprised you are mixed up about my system.

It has sort of evolved over a few years. It started out as an Arcam AVR600 running Kef Refs and using a Majik DS as a source.

I then got a MF AMS 35i, as it was the first amp I'd heard that comfortably outclassed the Arcam for 2 channel.

The 35i was connected to the Pre-Outs of the Arcam, which wasn't ideal, so I bought he LS50s to cover the Front L&R on the Arcam, so that the MF could be a totally separate 2 channel system.

On the face of it, a 35W amp driving the Refs sounds bonkers, until you realise that this Amp doubles its power into 4 and 2 Ohms (Refs go down to 3.2 Ohms and have a Sensitivity of 90dB), so sounds unlike any 35W amp that I've heard. The Transient Response of the 35i is quite dramatic.

Now to R700s vs 205/2.
The previous Refs were the top of the old Kef Line ie. IQ/XQ/Ref....and so has quite a different sound signature to the current range, which has evolved from the Blade.

Compared to the R700s, the 205/2s are crisper, cleaner and less "sweet". They have a tighter controlled bass, but can sound lean and thin when paired with the wrong amplification.

For my taste, I like the Refs paired with amps that don't sound lean or analytical...so thinking of brands like Electrocompaniet, Classe, McIntosh, Icon Audio Mono Blocks and powerful Class A. I know David (F.Harvey) likes the pairing with Bryston. These speakers are a window onto your system and weaknesses are ruthlessly revealed.

The R700s, on the other hand, have a slightly warm bass, a forgiving mid range and a clear, "ungrating" treble. They are compatable with a much greater degree of amps of different qualities and sound signatures, though they particularly like clean, powerful amps, with good control.

Truth to tell, the R Series are so competant, that if they had existed at the time, I doubt I could have justified the huge price difference. IMO The New Refs have restored the gap again.

The 205/2s are certainly a better speaker, but are much more system dependant. Without treading carefully, you could lose what you like about your system. Conversely, get the balance right and you will be rewarded with a neutral, musical and engaging speaker, that can still hold its head up high.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Everytime i tried to quote and reply it caused a spam filter.

Wow you have quiet a system and would love to hear it. Would also like to compare kef ref v atc.

Just takes up so much time.
also would like to hear everyones hifi in their homes.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm afraid I can't help you there, from personal experience.

Kef Reference and ATC are of a similar breed, sharing the character of being pretty neutral and honest, which is why both are used in Studios.

The new curved range of ATC are supposed to sound a little more forgiving than the old series, while retaining the detail. I suspect that the new SCM 40s would give the 205/2s a run for their money, while not being quite as good....though that is conjecture. David from F.Harvey might give better insight.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm afraid I can't help you there, from personal experience.

Kef Reference and ATC are of a similar breed, sharing the character of being pretty neutral and honest, which is why both are used in Studios.

The new curved range of ATC are supposed to sound a little more forgiving than the old series, while retaining the detail. I suspect that the new SCM 40s would give the 205/2s a run for their money, while not being quite as good....though that is conjecture. David from F.Harvey might give better insight.

Think it's important to bear in mind that the Kef refs originally retailed at about 2-3 grand more than the ATC 40s - I could be wrong, though.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm afraid I can't help you there, from personal experience.

Kef Reference and ATC are of a similar breed, sharing the character of being pretty neutral and honest, which is why both are used in Studios.

The new curved range of ATC are supposed to sound a little more forgiving than the old series, while retaining the detail. I suspect that the new SCM 40s would give the 205/2s a run for their money, while not being quite as good....though that is conjecture. David from F.Harvey might give better insight.

Think it's important to bear in mind that the Kef refs originally retailed at about 2-3 grand more than the ATC 40s - I could be wrong, though.

You are right.

I made the statement in light of comments made in the past, that the Curved SCM 40s would be as good as the Refs.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I'm afraid I can't help you there, from personal experience.

Kef Reference and ATC are of a similar breed, sharing the character of being pretty neutral and honest, which is why both are used in Studios.

The new curved range of ATC are supposed to sound a little more forgiving than the old series, while retaining the detail. I suspect that the new SCM 40s would give the 205/2s a run for their money, while not being quite as good....though that is conjecture. David from F.Harvey might give better insight.

Think it's important to bear in mind that the Kef refs originally retailed at about 2-3 grand more than the ATC 40s - I could be wrong, though.

You are right.

I made the statement in light of comments made in the past, that the Curved SCM 40s would be as good as the Refs.

The mid range at least. Not so sure re the bass with those 3 drivers. I bet they both have strengths and weakness in competition but both sound very very good (most prob much better than we really need tbh)Would need breathing space though.
I bet they weigh a ton also. Not checked but is it close to 50kg. My 700s are only 26kg.

Must say though the gloss black is a pain to keep clean.

 

[CnoEvil]

The mid range at least. Not so sure re the bass with those 3 drivers. I bet they both have strengths and weakness in competition but both sound very very good (most prob much better than we really need tbh)Would need breathing space though.
I bet they weigh a ton also. Not checked but is it close to 50kg. My 700s are only 26kg.

Must say though the gloss black is a pain to keep clean.

The 205/2 weighs 33 kg and the Ref Series was the pinnacle of what Kef could achieve until the Muon came along.

IMO. There was nothing better in its price range...just different. The attention to detail, build quality and "no compromise" approach, are all first class. It is quite an achievement that the new range is a noticeable improvement.

 

[plastic penguin]

Think Andrew needs to hold back a little. Don't doubt for one moment the talent of ATC, but unless there's a direct comparison with same amps, source etc etc. I would be concerned about making a direct comparison with Kef Refs. Much in the same way I wouldn't even begin to compare PMC23s with Kef Ref.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Think Andrew needs to hold back a little. Don't doubt for one moment the talent of ATC, but unless there's a direct comparison with same amps, source etc etc. I would be concerned about making a direct comparison with Kef Refs. Much in the same way I wouldn't even begin to compare PMC23s with Kef Ref.

Comparison between older refs and new atc not the new refs as id never be able to afford them at £10 000

 

[plastic penguin]

Think Andrew needs to hold back a little. Don't doubt for one moment the talent of ATC, but unless there's a direct comparison with same amps, source etc etc. I would be concerned about making a direct comparison with Kef Refs. Much in the same way I wouldn't even begin to compare PMC23s with Kef Ref.

Comparison between older refs and new atc not the new refs as id never be able to afford them at £10 000

I was talking about the older Kef refs. Heard these (pretty sure it was the same model as Cnos) on the end of a Luxman amp (I think) and they were phenomenal.

They belonged to my an ex-manager, and he had a very expensive processor to achieve surround sound. I think they retailed about £5500 - it was a long time ago.

I would love to hear the new ATC SCM 40 but it'll be futile as they're too big for my room, and TBH I don't have the amp to do them justice.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Think Andrew needs to hold back a little. Don't doubt for one moment the talent of ATC, but unless there's a direct comparison with same amps, source etc etc. I would be concerned about making a direct comparison with Kef Refs. Much in the same way I wouldn't even begin to compare PMC23s with Kef Ref.

Comparison between older refs and new atc not the new refs as id never be able to afford them at £10 000

I was talking about the older Kef refs. Heard these (pretty sure it was the same model as Cnos) on the end of a Luxman amp (I think) and they were phenomenal.

They belonged to my an ex-manager, and he had a very expensive processor to achieve surround sound. I think they retailed about £5500 - it was a long time ago.

I would love to hear the new ATC SCM 40 but it'll be futile as they're too big for my room, and TBH I don't have the amp to do them justice.

I think in another post cno mentioned that the r series were so good that the extra cost of the ref was not justified but with the new ref the balance of performance has been restored again and they look amazing.

I like the jet black with the gold mid range driver.

But if i were mega rich, i'd love a pair of matt black muons in a really large room with 4 - 6 mono blocks.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think in another post cno mentioned that the r series were so good that the extra cost of the ref was not justified but with the new ref the balance of performance has been restored again and they look amazing.

Just to clarify....this is just my opinion, and should be viewed in the contact of my system, budget and taste.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I think in another post cno mentioned that the r series were so good that the extra cost of the ref was not justified but with the new ref the balance of performance has been restored again and they look amazing.

Just to clarify....this is just my opinion, and should be viewed in the contact of my system, budget and taste.

That i respect

 

[mgavran]

Hi

I own a recently fully refreshed Sansui G7000 and old Coda 9 floorstanders (previously on Technics Vx700)..Listening CDs on also already vintage CD Technics 770A and Mac Mini freshly hooked to CambridgeAudio DACMagic 100.

I have brought the G7000 in the shop , nice people were full of respect and we tested KEF R500, some Monitor Audio and Q900... decided that I like the R500 but the volume of Q900 was showing the way to go..

i envisage the budget estimate of 1.5-2k and that shall bring KEF r700 or 900.... BUT !!! Recently i was offered a Reference 205/2 7 years old. Nevertheless I will have them at home next weekend if I want (sure I want and try them myself. their price is close to my budget .....

I am aware that G7000 may not be able to fee such high end hungry beasts all the way, but at my listening levels I am brave to try it.

thanks!!

Bit confusing. You say the volume of the Q900 showed the way to go. Then you want the KEF Reference but know that the G7000 will struggle at volume. I don't think the Sansui will drive the References, but if you are confident that you can sell them on if it doesn't work out, then give it a go. Otherwise stick to what you have auditioned.

Hey thanks for reply... i admit my post was a bit confusing... I am sure i need larger speakers; that was the comparison i got when the R500 was not enough for me, assuming that my room at home was even bigger than in the dealership.

And when in the same room the Q900 was degraded in definition of high and mid but added more in low range tones, volume i called it...

The Reference 205/2 are offered to me to test, that is why i have a fear, otherwise i will only go on and look for R700 and R900, would not go around and look for them!

In the meantime; i have brought my vintage Sansui G7000 (that is as new; fully restored and had listened a few CDs at the shop with B&W CM9 S2 and CM10 S2. I am afraid cannot tell which CD player was it, lost the note. However was the same for both speakers and I compared them to each other...

My target was to hear the sound i can obtain at low volumes, where my wife will not complain and I will still be able to enjoy the soft opening of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, Mozart Posthorn Serenade, as well as their crescendos.

I added as well the Daniel Lanois' Acadie to the test, Where the Hawkwind kills and also White Mustang II (i am nominating this song to test standards) where the final trumpet was by itself revealing the speakers differences..

Findings: SANSUI was delivering much much more than I feared - having huge respect to the specs and tests i read about the speakers I almost assumed it will not work... The dealer and his colleague came interested in the room, gave high positive comments. I have lost my hesitation to think about such high value speakers to be hooked to my G7000, definitely.

CM9S2 was sufficiently responsive, i heard more than i had at the same music material at KEF R500, which i only expected.

At the intensive parts, Gershwin as well as D.Lanois (Hawkwind), and at higher volume, i though i lost the clarity for the moments - my friend did not confirm my feeling... I am considering that there the G7000 might have come to the edge, and over it...

However; i was curious to try the CM10S2 - it was there and ready to hear it. I have expected even more easy listening good surprises, at the low freqs with such an incredible boxes, three bass drivers, much larger box, probably crossover design etc..

What a surprise ! Yes, the bass was far more present at low levels, i have already almost mentally made a decision -this is it- but in the next split second, i have understood that everything has changed!! the sound of voice, the piano trumpet, strings... e v e r y t h i n g!!!!!

I have passed the point of no return. I had CM9 as budget limit but wanted to test. Now i am not interested and CM10 is above budget...maybe some ex-demo appear. soon.

I may still go and test the R900 - i delete the R700 from the list, consider as well too small, but if available at the same time will try them both.

On KEF Reference; i am offered this pair of 205/2 to try them. I will , likely this week (-end) and my respect is again so high i am not going to be surprised if it sounds different, worse, i am accepting all the known limitations of my system,

The point is the budget wise; i can have the Ref 205/2 for a little more then new CM9S2 and lower than CM10S2.

So i have to hear it. If this still sound good, then I will most likely end up borrowing the amp and this will be then nextstep, when I hear the sound of more appropriate amp with the 205/2.

If not, then the wisdom i sense here (Thanks David will come to be proven - this is too far reaching and I shall setlle to the CM10S2 (if found money before I test the R900 ))

thank you guys for good inputs, i will post the status after the 205/2 are heard

 

[mgavran]

Instead to continue with my personal diary of entering the hifi realm...KEF 205/2 i will ask now the opinions as a new topic, as i got them home..

What I missed to tell - did not know at the time ! - was the price

...It is not to be told as i got it so good that the question of other speakers was not a real question any more when having this offer. So i resepected the good advices from you at the forum here, that the amp will likely be not sufficient and was ready when i faced it soon!

Yes it worked with SANSUI G 7000, i have heard the music i never had before from my CD collection, FLAC vaults, 24/96 etc..and then a friend came with his amp to try it too (he has some FOCAL, not rememberd) and he was impressed as well.

But i heard again new and more and different music!

So, i took into account the price i paid is a bargain, and to make it right, and make sense of this unexpected good buy that i regard lifetime value... i need the amp. yes, exactly as David, Andrew, CNO mentioned..

Even i have at home such a pair of gems, i hold no pile of cash to make them paired as they may deserve..e.g i read one comment, maybe David's, to put them onto a pair of X300.... I would like to do that, but not possible..now or soon.

I would warmy welcome your thoughts : need to buy an integrated amp to link the KEF 205/2 with my digital music mostly played by jriver, itunes from Mac, via Cambridge Audio DacMagic100. Occasinally using a CD playeer, a vintage TechnicsSL P770A via DacMagic100 toslink.

My reasoning is as much power/current...solid amp from used market with a good build .

HEGEL 300 ? now in the light of 360 lots of offers

MF M6i even new MF6Si - but why no rating on 4 ohm is listed ?

or older MF 308 in a good shape

I am ready to keep the CA DacMagic 100, will live without a remote as now with sansui

Just need to hear the music as it could be possible with better amp on Ref 205/2. They are brilliant !