New or second hand - the same old story

[admin_exported]

So what to do ?

Have 600 squid to play with on an office/ study hi fi system . Do I go new but budget entry or older but high end sound ? Simples...

Suggestions ... Nad cd545 + 326 bee or Marantz 60003 combo or Cambridge Audio 650 A and C

Positives - warranty , latest technology

As compared to Cyrus 6vs 2 , Cyrus 6 cd or Rotel cd991, RC 972, RB 981 or Creek Evo CD and Amp

Positives - quality components

Question - given the spend, does it really matter ? ie is there a serious difference between the combos which makes the risk of breakdown worth it

 

[Anonymous]

£600 wont get you a decent new system IMHO ...

so second hand is your best bet ... needs loads of research and patience as you will end up buying 'blind' (i.e you most prob wont be able to listen to the items with the other items already purchased)

£600 will get you a pretty decent 2nd hand system ... split your budget as follows:

£250 for an amp

£100 for a cd player

£250 for speakers

(assuming the only components you require are an amp, cdp and speakers)

a good system for your budget is a pioneer A-400 amp for £120, a marantz cd-63 MKII K1 cd player for £130 and a pair of Mission 753 speakers (not the freedom ones) for £200 ...

will cost you approx £450 ... add £100 for speaker cable/interconnect and you have a really good system

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not recommending one way or the other as it's largely a personality/risk aversion thing (e.g. I go variable rate mortgages, my brother goes fixed!) but there is a middle ground - buying traded in stuff from dealers so you get a warranty (e.g. the BADA marketplace).

The Marantz cd63 variants are still popular (in fact you get the odd bidding fight over a mint KI) so that's a good recommendation. I had the standard 63 mk2 and enjoyed it - also, interestingly enough with a Pioneer A400 and Mission 752s so close to the suggested system! I personally didn't rate the Pioneer tho.

Anyway, that's digressing - I've bought both new and 2nd hand (more the latter recently). If it's a second system for a study are you that bothered about sound quality? If not maybe the reduced risk of 'new' would be sensible. If you want to squeeze max value out of your pennies then 2nd hand of course. Always the risk of being burned but there are ways of reducing risk:

- if buying off a forum see who else that forum member has sold to before, get feedback, see how long they've participated there

- dealers will give you a 6month guarantee often on used gear.

- buying off forums or ebay, paypal gives you (at least an illusion of) some comeback and may prompt the seller to be genuine

- if second hand, review the history of prices - if you don't like it can you sell it on with little/no loss?

- are spare parts available/manufacturer still in business/transports available for the cd etc? Obviously you can take this very seriously or not so much.

Shame there's no classifieds on this forum as I'm selling stuff soon 🙂 No good for an office system tho to be honest - too big

 

[chebby]

Look around for deals like this one.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys for your reflections- RS are doing the same deal, BTW Chebby

I already have PMC db 1'S so don't need to spend one of the notional 1/3 rds on Speakers.

But I do need something decent to get the best out of what I have been told are excellent speakers. Therefore I'm assuming a good amp and CD ( 250 on each ) . I also have a Beresford 7520 and a Denon TU 1800 . So the components are there for a really good sound. And I have Chord Crimsons on the way

Should I spend more on the amp than the CD - I thought the source was THE key ?

Has technology improved things so much that newer is always better as well as safer ( warrantable )

 

[matthewpiano]

£600 WILL get you a very good system new in the form of Marantz CD6003 and PM6003 - with a free pair of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s at both Richers and Superfi at present. The Marantz electronics are superb for the money and well built too.

Is there any give in the budget at all? I only ask because the Rega Brio 3 is only about £326 brand new and its a superb little amp. The ideal partner would be a Rega Apollo CD player which is £450, so total system is nearer £800 but will give you astounding results that I think you'd be happy with for a long time.

2nd hand the Pioneer A400 is a good bet as is the Rotel RCD965BX CD player. Rotel amps always make a very good buy as well. The RA01 is a great, relatively cheap buy with a very dynamic and musical sound.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:£600 WILL get you a very good system new in the form of Marantz CD6003 and PM6003 - with a free pair of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s at both Richers and Superfi at present. The Marantz electronics are superb for the money and well built too. Is there any give in the budget at all? I only ask because the Rega Brio 3 is only about £326 brand new and its a superb little amp. The ideal partner would be a Rega Apollo CD player which is £450, so total system is nearer £800 but will give you astounding results that I think you'd be happy with for a long time. 2nd hand the Pioneer A400 is a good bet as is the Rotel RCD965BX CD player. Rotel amps always make a very good buy as well. The RA01 is a great, relatively cheap buy with a very dynamic and musical sound.

just out of interest matthew, how would you rate the new cd6003, PM6003 and diamonds against the pioneer a400, marantz cd63 sig and mission 753's? (not comparing second hand vs new, but comparing soundwise?)

 

[the record spot]

Buying used needn't mean no warranty; Billy Vee in London, for instance offers a one year warranty on all his used kit, others will vary between three to six months typically and even the ones who don't want your custom again, so if the £500 amp goes belly up three months later, the good dealers won't leave you high and dry.

Anyway, there's a stack of good kit out there, I third the aformentioned Marantz 6003 series with the new Wharfedale Diamonds at £600. Peter Comeau is back at the speaker helm for IAG and this first outing looks like he's on form (in case you don't know, his was the guiding hand for the Heybrook HB1 classic in the early 80s, also some of the higher end Mission speakers as well as being at the helm of World Designs prior to moving to China). At the very worst, you could buy the set and sell the Diamonds on, or you can go down the used route.

Not sure what will partner the PMC DB1s well, but assuming you do a little research into good partnering kit for them, there are plenty of options out there. Moreso if you can eke the budget up by £100 or so.

I've gone down the new and used route and have to say I find the experience can be mixed in both cases. I think I appreciate the value of a home demo than instore, but it depends on the shop, their approach and the kit they have. On the other hand, buying used can turn up some remarkably fine equipment at incredibly low prices. There are trade-offs and benefits to both.

 

[matthewpiano]

dim_span:
matthewpiano:£600 WILL get you a very good system new in the form of Marantz CD6003 and PM6003 - with a free pair of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s at both Richers and Superfi at present. The Marantz electronics are superb for the money and well built too. Is there any give in the budget at all? I only ask because the Rega Brio 3 is only about £326 brand new and its a superb little amp. The ideal partner would be a Rega Apollo CD player which is £450, so total system is nearer £800 but will give you astounding results that I think you'd be happy with for a long time. 2nd hand the Pioneer A400 is a good bet as is the Rotel RCD965BX CD player. Rotel amps always make a very good buy as well. The RA01 is a great, relatively cheap buy with a very dynamic and musical sound.

just out of interest matthew, how would you rate the new cd6003, PM6003 and diamonds against the pioneer a400, marantz cd63 sig and mission 753's? (not comparing second hand vs new, but comparing soundwise?)

I'd have to go slightly different and compare CD6003/PM6003 and Mordaunt-Short Aviano 2 with what I know individually of the A400, and KI-Sig and also of my RCD965BX/A400/751 system.

I've done a lot of listening now having been in a similar position to the OP and having gone down the second hand route so I hope this helps.

I am a big fan of the A400 and the CD63 KI-Sig. I think they are excellent components and, at the right price, represent excellent value for money. Likewise the Rotel RCD965BX, which has a very musical sound and is well built. In my own system the more I listen the more unsure I become about the speakers - in my case 751s. They are brilliant in terms of dynamics and detail levels but I'm finding them a bit thin sounding in the treble with orchestral music. Sometimes strings can sound quite unsatisfying through them and, to be honest, I think its going to end up being a major stumbling block for me. Some of this might be synergy - the metal tweeters of the Missions with the brighter sound of the Pioneer amp - although trying my Mordaunt-Short MS25Ti (which also have a metal dome tweeter) shows that such speakers can work in this system (they are playing Fleetwood Mac now and sound very very good. Strangely enough I find the Quad 11Ls sound a bit too flat on the end of the Rotel/Pioneer combination, although I know from an earlier system that they work brilliantly when the Pioneer is paired with the CD63MkII KI-Sig.

So how does the Marantz 6003 stuff compare? Very favourably actually. The Marantz combo is very well balanced and runs a sort of Goldilocks line between the two extremes of brightness and being dull/overly warm. Instrument timbres are very well reproduced and, with the Aviano 2s on the end, there is plenty of pace and attack without it ever becoming clinical sounding. The CD6003 is more rhythmic than the Rotel (which does sound like it suffers from quite a bit of jitter) but feels better built than the CD63KI-Sig.

The Rega Apollo/Brio 3/R3 system I've auditioned would beat both options quite comfortably. Its only real fault is the Brio's tendency to harden up at very high volumes but this wouldn't really affect me as those sort of volumes would be pretty anti-social anyway. Its a very spacious and airy sound with great rhythm (same sort of PRAT as Naim), but it combines this with a real knack for reproducing timbres and hanging the whole thing together as a musical entity.

Apologies if there seems to be a lot of thoughts here but answering your question ties in with a lot of the thoughts I'm having myself at present. Hope it is useful.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:dim_span:

matthewpiano:£600 WILL get you a very good system new in the form of Marantz CD6003 and PM6003 - with a free pair of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s at both Richers and Superfi at present. The Marantz electronics are superb for the money and well built too. Is there any give in the budget at all? I only ask because the Rega Brio 3 is only about £326 brand new and its a superb little amp. The ideal partner would be a Rega Apollo CD player which is £450, so total system is nearer £800 but will give you astounding results that I think you'd be happy with for a long time. 2nd hand the Pioneer A400 is a good bet as is the Rotel RCD965BX CD player. Rotel amps always make a very good buy as well. The RA01 is a great, relatively cheap buy with a very dynamic and musical sound.

just out of interest matthew, how would you rate the new cd6003, PM6003 and diamonds against the pioneer a400, marantz cd63 sig and mission 753's? (not comparing second hand vs new, but comparing soundwise?)

I'd have to go slightly different and compare CD6003/PM6003 and Mordaunt-Short Aviano 2 with what I know individually of the A400, and KI-Sig and also of my RCD965BX/A400/751 system. I've done a lot of listening now having been in a similar position to the OP and having gone down the second hand route so I hope this helps. I am a big fan of the A400 and the CD63 KI-Sig. I think they are excellent components and, at the right price, represent excellent value for money. Likewise the Rotel RCD965BX, which has a very musical sound and is well built. In my own system the more I listen the more unsure I become about the speakers - in my case 751s. They are brilliant in terms of dynamics and detail levels but I'm finding them a bit thin sounding in the treble with orchestral music. Sometimes strings can sound quite unsatisfying through them and, to be honest, I think its going to end up being a major stumbling block for me. Some of this might be synergy - the metal tweeters of the Missions with the brighter sound of the Pioneer amp - although trying my Mordaunt-Short MS25Ti (which also have a metal dome tweeter) shows that such speakers can work in this system (they are playing Fleetwood Mac now and sound very very good. Strangely enough I find the Quad 11Ls sound a bit too flat on the end of the Rotel/Pioneer combination, although I know from an earlier system that they work brilliantly when the Pioneer is paired with the CD63MkII KI-Sig. So how does the Marantz 6003 stuff compare? Very favourably actually. The Marantz combo is very well balanced and runs a sort of Goldilocks line between the two extremes of brightness and being dull/overly warm. Instrument timbres are very well reproduced and, with the Aviano 2s on the end, there is plenty of pace and attack without it ever becoming clinical sounding. The CD6003 is more rhythmic than the Rotel (which does sound like it suffers from quite a bit of jitter) but feels better built than the CD63KI-Sig. The Rega Apollo/Brio 3/R3 system I've auditioned would beat both options quite comfortably. Its only real fault is the Brio's tendency to harden up at very high volumes but this wouldn't really affect me as those sort of volumes would be pretty anti-social anyway. Its a very spacious and airy sound with great rhythm (same sort of PRAT as Naim), but it combines this with a real knack for reproducing timbres and hanging the whole thing together as a musical entity. Apologies if there seems to be a lot of thoughts here but answering your question ties in with a lot of the thoughts I'm having myself at present. Hope it is useful.

good review/comments Matthew ... thanks! only system that I have owned that had the Pioneer A400 and Rotel CDP was:

Pioneer A400 amp

Rotel RCD-9658X Limited edition (a bit different to the one you own and very good)

IMF TLS80 speakers

van den hul speaker cable and a silver interconnect

system was brilliant and many people who had systems that cost several times more were very impressed

 

[Gerrardasnails]

dim_span:
A complete system in mint condition ... ebay item 220505157097 ... £500 start price with no bids yet ... 2 days to go ... ebay item 220505157097

Marantz PM66-SE KI Signature Integrated Amp

Marantz CD63 MkII KI Signature CD Player

B&W DM601 S2 Speakers

included:

[*]All separates are boxed with original packaging and Marantz authentication certificates.
Remotes for both Amp and CD player included.
Atacama speaker stands (sand filled).
Van Der Hul UK interconnects (gold tipped connectors) - directional.
4 way speaker wire (with plug connectors on all ends) customed made for system.
Speakers come with plain black dust covers

The starting price could be 99p, there are still 2 days to go and the starting price is irrelevant.

 

[Anonymous]

If you go second-hand, £600 for amp and CDP would give you any number of highly desirable combinations, especially if you're willing to hold out for good deals (especially important on Ebay, where prices vary like crazy). For example, I think an Arcam A85 + Rega Apollo is not out of the question in or around £600. And that's just one option that I would find tasty.

Hedgehog

 

[bretty]

Magnum Opus:
So what to do ?

Have 600 squid to play with on an office/ study hi fi system . Do I go new but budget entry or older but high end sound ? Simples...

Suggestions ... Nad cd545 + 326 bee or Marantz 60003 combo or Cambridge Audio 650 A and C

Positives - warranty , latest technology

As compared to Cyrus 6vs 2 , Cyrus 6 cd or Rotel cd991, RC 972, RB 981 or Creek Evo CD and Amp

Positives - quality components

Question - given the spend, does it really matter ? ie is there a serious difference between the combos which makes the risk of breakdown worth it

I have the RCD-991. It's the best player that I have ever heard. I demoed plenty before I bought it, ranging in price from £700-£1200. It surpassed them all. I think it's a combination of the twin Burr-Brown DACs, the digital filter that it has for the HDCD playback and the Dither control (a neat function that I have not seen on any other player).

If you have a chance to demo one, i'm sure you'll buy it!