New amp that changed an uncompromising opinion and beat the opposition so convincingly I took it home

Stuart83

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Jul 22, 2023
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Fred R. Bernard
"A picture is worth a thousand words"

A very apt phrase for my day out at the various demo rooms of both dealers and come-to-be friends of many yrs in one case.

Fast becoming one of my favourite places in which I keep all things hifi and also myself that nondescript in favour of never colouring an opinion into being biased is where I stumbled upon an unpopular choice of amp that sounded that good in it's class I looked past the software niggles that dogged it early on it's release.
Fortunately I waited long enough for them to be ironed out with an update.

This visit was very similar only this time the amp I heard was unintentionally of a different class

Originally i had purchased an Audiolab 6000a after it came up as an ex demo at a substantial savings which had become a favourite of mine after hearing it and all kinds in-between a few years ago which to me bettered the rega brio I later heard, combined with more connection suitabilties my mind was made with those two.

Getting there I as usual couldn't get off the phone as I'd developed an interest in 2 class D amps in which I was following the reviews, all of which to me a staunch class A/AB lover even the delving into class G was a suspicious time until a deeper understanding of exactly wtf it really was and acceptably to me most stay true to the so loved aforementioned classes.
Surly after hearing a completely different class in a D-amp and not liking them for the most part these two amps one being a Technics the other Marantz a much loved brand yet also being privy to the reasons behind the problems with class D they couldn't be as good as the gathering steam I was reading from people I generally listen to.

I decided to demo once again a class D offering without letting past experiences nor the negatives from the masses cloud my judgement.

Already having payed for the Audiolab and being there to pick it up I thought what better an opportunity to hear them both back to back via the demo room.
Out came the familer Audiolab 6000a with it's clean sleek look accompanying it's predictable to me very good performance but this time I had a curve ball in the new very very both short and good album by "The Lumineers" which suffers terrible "siblance ssssss" issues that my favourite Pioneer a400 and Roskan K3 lets through throughout the volume range although most cringingly at the predictable to those who know me loud volumes I listen at leaving the unpopular choice to some in Arcam sa30 🫨 to deal with it most convincingly.

Its siblance at the source so cant be avoided yet I like the album that much I forgive it's hissing at me.
It immediately made itself known through the audiolab which focussed on it worse than it's 33yr old pioneer (was soon) to be companion although other than that the amp sang out nicely reminding me a fortune doesn't have to spent to hear such quality.
This being the second destination for demos that day I had a head full of prior ruminating performances in which the Audiolab didn't disappoint.

In fact it outperformed a few twice it's price in the new offerings from the little known brands I'd since forgotten and made no effort to recollect as it's never my aim to upset anybody especially those who sometimes wrongly/rightly think the little known makers with the predictably higher price tags are always best.

Then the rather big Technics SU-G700M2 Grand Class came out which is quite the lump and just as heavy.
First off the old style take it or leave it VU meters struck a visual cord with me I've always liked the things even adding them to systems as stand alone accessories in the past.
Suppose growing up with older gear around me rubbed off but I really like a dancing VU which are shadowed over with a huge volume dial that has some wizard pokery to make it feel weighty and smooth to the touch.

I'm digressing as visually it is right up my street.

All my soon to be dissolved opinions on how a class D amp should sound where pushed away as soon as I heard the first few notes of a familer album.
I settled in after not needing to up the volume I regularly need to do when demoing something and was instantly enamoured by this amp.
From it's snappy clean, crisp powerful beats to it's totally distortion free speaker impedance matching soundstage that sucked me in.
Just the right amount of accuracy and flavour added here to please me immeasurably.

The way it handles loud music was totally gratifying, despite having monster amps way more generously proportioned in the wattage department this amp will not distort until you've really hit a speakers limit.
The loss of control and muddying up I hear as I take amps to levels most never do on a regular basis just isn't there.
It really is like the amp enjoys the music more as the volume is increased.

I won't wax lyrical about it's tecky bits as I age it neither bothers me nor do I care like I used to it became all about what I hear a long time ago even at the age of 40 something having being raised by a father who often proved quality is like beauty and is in the eyes and ears of the beholder Ive heard all sorts that challenge the stereotypes in the hifi world EVEN when it's myself.

I not only totally changed my mind about class D but immediately returned the Audiolab against the price of the technics and bought it on the spot.

Since getting it home it's never been off long going from QA 3050I's to Fayne audio f502's it's performance is to me dazzling for it's price tag.
 

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Love the look of those Technics class d amps....not managed to hear one as yet.
I recently also purchased a class d...basically to try the goto partner of my Brooklyn bridge which I've grown very fond of after a bit of a bad start....anyway the Brooklyn apm plus is it's stable mate now.....oh my!what a pairing it is...I absolutely adore the sound eminating from my Neat Petite classics.....I was also very sceptical of class d amps...but not any longer...probably be my goto into the future....tiny wee things that belt out a enormous amount of sublime sound..
 
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Are you saying that the Technics SU-G700M2 reduces or eliminates the sibilance from 'Same Old Song'?
I gather that you are listening to 'Automatic' on CD using the Roskan K3?
 
With humility as one of my defining morel values I need to first get out of the way EARLY on the Technics give in after not even a week with 6ohm speakers that dip a tad to the low 3ohms then even shut off with the larger 8ohm fyne's.

After a 30min listening session at nearly 11oclock as you may know I drive my amps hard YET have never broken one and always keep below the half way point.
To add balance indeed both my pioneer a400 at 33yrs old which is driven hard for admittedly usually short periods of 30m or so has never missed a beat (pardon the pun) nor have the few others I keep hold of that have impressed me over the yrs.

To say I was disappointed was an understatement.
I stood up to grab the remote and it clicked off flashing an error code so quickly I couldn't deciefer it.
Unfortunately it was to do it a further 6 or so times meaning I finally got a long enough glimpse of an F76 error.
Asstute enough to know a quick internet search and a phone call to my dear old father to run my theory by would suffice I hastily did exactly that.

Oh dear🫨
I should of researched this amp past it's magazine reviews, it's been dogged with the same error although for different causes from it from release.
To name one of a few sources https://www.crutchfield.com/p_133G700M2B/Reviews/Technics-SU-G700M2-Grand-Class-Black.html

The temptation was there to open it up to cement my opinion as to why into fact as I simply didn't want to part with the amp and knowing the fault would likely follow any replacement but I obviously decided not to knowing what I know (which is never enough) it wouldn't get me past the worry of voiding the warranty etc.
Nor would I need to after buying new from a reputable dealer who I respect past pulling tricks like that on.

There was a time or two this was a forced practice with sh?tty sellers refusing any liability irrespective of the fault.
Fortunately the internet sharp weeded them out and ushered in reviewer stats etc to supply the much missing trust to know where to purchase things from.
(Of course theres always the exceptions)
It didn't stop my harmless experimenting with what I could from the outside and my obvious suspicion was strengthened by simply adding bass and finding it hit what's to me and "overload" way earlier than before.

The amp error code points to a power supply problem in which silent "Clipping came" to my mind maybe caused when the output voltage swing exceeds the value of the power supply feeding the amplifier 🤔
The amp simply can't offer up the power and hits an auto shutoff similar to the thermal shutdown on other class amps.

I always keep on the side of amp specs yet too many times have I seen people powering 4ohm speakers especially ones that dip to the higher twos with amps that haven't got the current despite quoting a 4ohms they are seldom over the combined wattage that's needed in general.
A higher wattage (as lets be real current is rarely included in any specs) is usually a quick give away an amplifier can handle and deliver more current, allowing them to drive speakers and go louder this higher wattage usually points to supply such a current.

I'm not one to argue so please remember there are the many many caviates where this rule doesn't apply.
In the interest of the post I don't want to digress into the differences between watts and current as there are many low power amps with enough current to supply 4ohms yet low wattage amplifiers generally don't output high current; in fact, they are designed to deliver a lower power output, meaning they produce less current at a given volt.

I've seen many with 4ohm speakers that listen at the kind of volumes and relatively short periods of time that they never encounter such problems with such amplifiers in which case these amps are indeed suitable for such preferences in listening therefore it's only the select few experience such problems with things like moving to a bigger room for instance where louder volumes are needed to compensate etc then things literally heat up.

Some amps won't tell you this nor can you feel such heat in most designs until "click" and your music goes off.
There's a few amps around that use their actual case as a heatsink which alarms people as such heat that is normally hidden to the senses is presented in a worrying to touch temperature.

I know some rega gear does this yet they unlike some makers are honest enough to point out in an almost disclaimer type way 4ohms is a hard load for an underpowered integrated amp yet within spec into 8ohms or even the more and more common six ohms they are power houses.
I heard the elicit Mk5 out perform everything in its class including the technics for sheer sound and power into 8ohms but the experience of a fellow member put me off although it ran relatively cool it was only on 10m
A formula I use that has been around in different variations for as long as I can remember for 4-ohm speakers is it's generally best to use an amplifier that can deliver at least 1.6 to 2.5 times the speaker's continuous power rating.

The people that like music loud although a relative term are usually the people who find problems.
Combine this with 6ohm speakers with dips and thus I've encountered a problem despite specs pointing to a capability to drive such loads.
There's instances where the dimmer function has been a culprit in shutting down the technics aswell which just doesn't instill enough confidence to bother with a replacement.

I usually go for 100w as a ballpark which has raised eyebrows from people who think it's for misunderstood reasons.
The a400 is in polar opposite terms of the above as at 50w it has the current to fully commit to high volumes without excessive heat with me wattage is used for quick reference when looking around so I thought at 70w into 8ohms I wouldn't encounter such problems so it absolutely leaves the possibility it's something entirely different exerting the same symptoms for the shutdowns to occur.

All I do know is for sound I thought it was the amp id stay with for many yrs like the Arcam in the other room i thought I'd hit upon the sweet spot.
 
#7

An amp can easily have max power at 11 o'clock on the volume or earlier

specs are not in 20-20khz 70W + 70W ( 1kHz, T.H.D. 0.5 %, 8Ω, 20kHz LPF )

140 watt in 4 ohm pr channel amp Load Impedance 4Ω-16Ω so it might not be happy with 2-3 ohm loads

Mabye you need something more powerfull that can play loud without going into prptection mode, something where you don't need to use all of the power to play loud

Fyne Audio F500SP goes down to 2.32 ohms at 121Hz
 
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#7

And amp can easily have max power at 11 o'clock on the volume or earlier

specs are not in 20-20khz 70W + 70W ( 1kHz, T.H.D. 0.5 %, 8Ω, 20kHz LPF )

140 watt in 4 ohm pr channel amp Load Impedance 4Ω-16Ω so it might not be happy with 2-3 ohm loads

Mabye you need something more powerfull that can play loud without going into prptection mode, something where you don't need to use all of the power to play loud

Fyne Audio F500SP goes down to 2.32 ohms at 121Hz
True.
If I had been playing that loud with my speakers, either of them, I'd be deaf by now.....
 
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what link ?
Yes, I was wondering that.
It is unfortunate that they, or anyone else for that matter, cannot produce an amplifier that simply does just that.
Try to build in a load of other stuff these days simply seems to add more potential faults.
That said getting an amp to drive a speaker that is beyond the amps capabilities is always going to be an issue.
 
True.
If I had been playing that loud with my speakers, either of them, I'd be deaf by now.....
It's indeed very true.
I have various other amps that go deafeningly loud before 10 oclock yet I drive them sometimes higher.

I'm an excitable type I guess 😂

The technics on paper was scrutinised and seemed capable yet I'm unsure of my theory as the presented fault is also connected to other things that did not present a problem to me with this amp.

I always hit the upper envelope with any kit.
Many times have I had people's deafening turn out to be my norm listening level.

My time as a djay probably had me get used to what's silly volume to some yet pa gear sounds terrible in the home.
Suffice to say again I've never had this problem before with hifi always staying in spec.
(Well the ones that are written anyway 😡)

The maverick hifi comes to mind a guy had people regularly leave the room he had complaining about the volume that much he even reverted to sticking a note on the door warning about his listening levels and his reasoning for building such a system.

It was the room I stayed in most of the show to have my hair blown off.

The 70w on the Fayne f502's should of given me the headroom to play at short loud levels but apparently not.
I have other amps regularly used in this manner a Roskan K3 an arcam sa30 and a much loved 33 yr old 50w pioneer a400 from my childhood that play at any level I demand without problem and have for a number of yrs.

33yrs in one case.

It's a shame as musically I really liked the amp, a super clean sound class d is apparently known for.

Well back to the demo rooms and back to the much too mentioned a400 in my main hifi for now, regardless of what I have and how much I pay I always end up back with it.
Should be telling me something I think.

For the love of music I guess.
 
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#7

And amp can easily have max power at 11 o'clock on the volume or earlier

specs are not in 20-20khz 70W + 70W ( 1kHz, T.H.D. 0.5 %, 8Ω, 20kHz LPF )

140 watt in 4 ohm pr channel amp Load Impedance 4Ω-16Ω so it might not be happy with 2-3 ohm loads

Mabye you need something more powerfull that can play loud without going into prptection mode, something where you don't need to use all of the power to play loud

Fyne Audio F500SP goes down to 2.32 ohms at 121Hz
It's not the SP version yet still rated at a nominal 8ohms .
All speakers dip in resistance when under varying load conditions which would write most speakers off for most amps if they were to be taken as a baseline.

Although I take your point.
 
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Bad luck on the Technics!

Stuart, in the same ballpark price range of the Technics is a Gato Dia 250S. Also class D. 250wpc so plenty powerful enough for most.

Also this thing is beautiful looking!

Whilst I've never heard the 250S, I have just bought the big bro Dia 400S NPM, which is a more powerful version. Very impressive and I've previously heard and owned loads of stuff. The inbuilt DAC is also very impressive too.

There are a few dealers in the UK. It would be worth wrapping your ears around one if you get a chance.

 
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Bad luck on the Technics!

Stuart, in the same ballpark price range of the Technics is a Gato Dia 250S. Also class D. 250wpc so plenty powerful enough for most.

Also this thing is beautiful looking!

Whilst I've never heard the 250S, I have just bought the big bro Dia 400S NPM, which is a more powerful version. Very impressive and I've previously heard and owned loads of stuff. The inbuilt DAC is also very impressive too.

There are a few dealers in the UK. It would be worth wrapping your ears around one if you get a chance.

I will indeed.
I've just gotten hold of a Rega elicit Mk5 on loan from my friend as I was impressed by it's sound yet stayed away for the few heat issues mentioned online yet he's never had the heat problems.
We obviously checked the bias to find it's (apparently non adjustable) to be safe but using the bodywork as a heat sink isn't confidence inspiring to say the least yet I've not ran it hence not commented.

I will absolutely be looking at the Technics as it's where I like to be sound wise.
Clean and precise with just the right amount of spice.

Ps what happened to "The Train" (leak stereo 20)
 
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Musical Fidelity M6si is also power full and hegel H190V (under £3000)

I also sometimes like it loud but have settled to -25db om ny amp not to have it to loud and to have it sound clean

The point of have more power than you need is not to play super loud for most people but to be able to play loud without using all of the amps power and to have power to control the speakers no matter what impedans it has

2 ohm stable is what most people want, since many speakers go under 4 ohm

My amp should have the same power as the Yamaha A-S701 and the r-n1000a

My speakers do at some point go down to 4 ohm,so i have 150-200 watt pr channel (peak) but don't use all of it

2025-03-31 03_59_09-Yamaha A-S701 Stereo Amplifier Review _ Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum –...png

Havn't used super low ohm speakers but it doesn't brake down,cut off or anything when playing loud

If your amp can't play loud without breaking a sweat or cut off, you just need something better if yopu wann keep your speakers

This looks like a very good deal https://petertyson.co.uk/marantz-pm-12se-integrated-amplifier-black
 
I think some/most have fully read my original and following post some maybe not.
I can't blame them it's rather long winded, alas I'm also guilty on occasion of skimming through things for whatever reason.

Suffice to say it's like musical chairs/amps at the minute as I swapped back to the 33yr old a-400 to then carry the Roskan K3 in from another room to then swap to the Arcam sa30 to then swap back again.
Understanding ohms law was part of my education (although everyday is a school day) so it's never been a point of overdriving anything, I know what I need in watts dept it's the capacity to drive these watts that has caused "a suspicion" with the Technics with it's given symptoms before shutoff.
(After catching up with someone who's had the same problem it seems I may be right given his was fine until upping the volume.
Like me he never bothered with the dimmer function to know about nor prompt the same F76 shutdown but it seems its also causing problems)

For example for 33yrs I've had the pioneer with its 50 watts humble more speakers than I can remember and more than a few amps specified at triple that, the Roskan I've got now comes close , even a few nearly with 4x that (not counting the non hifi to me djay gear which hits the 4 digits) but none I like sonically as much as the A-400.
As some may remember in prior post's as a kid I had a repaired 12w Sansui au505 although in a shoebox bedroom would go way louder than most would believe and most couldn't stand.
I had it power anything from small bookshelf speakers to much larger Tannoys even all four using it's systems a&b together although the quality suffered it still was enough in wattage as it had sufficient ac current to carry it.

It seems to be the current needed that' was missing.
I've noticed a few amps run hot due to speakers sucking more wattage than the amps current can provide which this isn't usually a problem as it's momentary impedance peaks and troughs give time to shed off the resulting heat.
Some amps as most know aren't truthful it seems about there specs.

I know rega have issues with such claims of being able to drive quote "difficult to drive speakers with ease" in actual fact they have readjusted their manuals with the elicit to using the same prior warning of thermal shutdowns to cover 6ohm loads aswell as the original 4ohm in a disclaimer type way.
Apparently they have they very good customer service which is just aswell given the volume of online accounts stating heat problems.
Using the body as a heatsink is a tad silly given the real world applications of placement.
Although there's many accounts of rega amps overheating I've had one that only ran warm on a home demo once and am about to try the new elicit Mk5 in the next few days.
It will be with the Fyne's nominal 8ohms and QA 3050i at 6ohms so I'm expecting the "Rega oven" type treatment.

I'm listening to the pioneer now at a smidge under 3 out of its 10 which is about 46/100 on the Arcam and 10 to 11 o'clock on the Roskan and they all stay cool, the pioneer is at 20°c with an ambient temperature of 18°c and been playing for 15m or so.
I've never needed to go past 4 on the pioneer or past 11oclock with the amps I have, even then it's usually prompted by a bad recording.
I'm always one to safeguard my gear in that respect, I even still turn my amp to zero before powering on 😂 although it's not a needed practice anymore it's still engrained into me from the old days.
Especially with the prices of hifi now, even in the days of coming home with all sorts of gear from the boot sales in the 90s when those mostly terrible all-in-one sharp systems gave rise to people giving their decent then to be seen as old fashioned actual hifi the boot, I still took care of it hence some of it is still around now.
 

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