New Amp/Speakers Quuestion

[admin_exported]

Hi - I'm looking to get a new amp/speaker setup for my lounge. I will put the TV through it, but am not bothered about surround sound etc. Only plan to have 2 speakers (well, plus sub-woofer if it is needed) and much more interested in quality of music library than TV.

My sound source will mostly be my iPod (or drive with same on it). Most of this is ripped at 320/vbr, but still a lot of my earlier rips were done at 192, and don't know if I'll ever get the time to redo! But might, over time...

I had originally budgeted about £1k in total for amp & speakers. Yesterday I auditioned Marantz 6004 & both B&W CM1's & MA RX1's. Overall was very dissapointed in sound. Some things sounded OK...others just sounded...small, boxed in.

So I asked to try some floor standing speakers, and listened to some MA RX6's. This pushed me out of my budget, but that's OK. I wasn't going to pay £1k for a sound I would never be happy with.

Conclusion - some things sounded absolutely amazing on the RX6's, but some tracks still were a dissapointment. I was wondereing whether the quality of the setup was revealing weaknesses in the original recording, or in the quality of the compression (oh, forgot to say, shop was running my iPod wirelessly through an Arcam DAC). I then compared tracks I knew were encoded at 320 vbr and above, to ones with a lower bt rate...and couldn't really detect that this was making the difference.

It seemed to me that, when the track was quite simple (just acoustic guitar & voice, solo piano, solo cello) the setup sounded amazing. but as soon as a full orchestra, or more complex band music came in, the quality dived. It just got muddy, lack of clairity, lack of focus. That doesn't happen with same sound source in my headphones (Bose over ear, or Kplisch in-ear) or my car, so why should it here?)

Is this the amp or the speakers? (oh, one more thing - the speakers occasionally 'boomed' on bass notes. Don't know if this was an affect of the demo room I was in, or the speakers themselves).

I've been reading a bit about the Kef R100's - would this be a better choice than the RX1's? Should I be considering another amp?

If I were prepared to push my budget up to, say a max of £2k for both amp & speakers (I'd rather not! But if I had to, for a sound I was happy with, I would), could I be looking at something that would be significantly better than this setup?

Any tips greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,

Mark

The music I was listening to was:

Weather Report - various tracks from Heavy Weather

Steely Dan - tracks from Aja, Royal Scam, & others

Keith Jarret - solo piano

Joni Mitchell - various

Mahler - symphony 9

 

[Anonymous]

"would this be a better choice than the RX1's" was of course a typo, should have referred to the RX6's I was listening to, not RX1's.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmm...just realised the Kef R100's I mentioned are actualyl bookshelf speakers, not floorstanding ones. Well, after the dissapointment I had with the CM1's & the RX1's, I think I want to steer clear of bookshelf speakers, unless I'm told these R100's really are in a different class, and can compare to the MA RX6's.

but assuming the R100's are 'out' for now, what would you recommend as an alternative to the MA RX6's that might handle complex music better?

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps the Tannoy Revolution DC6T?

 

[the record spot]

Given that you're using the source you are, have a think about the Onkyo TX8050 network stereo receiver. It has a USB input on the fascia and uses its own DAC to apply conversion but takes the data feed from your iPod/iPad (or whichever source you happen to use through it - note NOT a computer, specifically mentioned in the manual, the DLNA side of things takes care of that). 100wpc, good internal build ample power for the likes of the MAs and with a sound quality that's hard to believe at the price.

Original retail price came in at £499 a year or so back, but I think this is now an outgoing line and you can get it for £249 off Amazon (Hughes Direct) or Play.com or some high street retailers (Richer Sounds and Superfi will price match).

Have a listen to the R100s - they might not be floorstanders, but I imagine a well run-in pair will deliver a bigger sound than you might believe for their size. I heard a pair the other week when I demoed some compact standmounts and they could put out the noise - huge bass but would've dominated in my room. If you have a big room, then you can pick and choose. I think the Onkyo would work very well with Q Acoustics 2050i if you want a really huge sound, but best thing to do is try before you buy and sort out a demo.

Lastly, check around this site for some of my thoughts on the Onkyo (there's a few... *cough*) plus the web. There are few reviews (only one from Germany to date) but the owner reviews are pretty much positive across the board.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think the PM6004 is the right amplifier if you're looking for an expansive soundstage. Considering your music and budget, I'd be looking at Rotel (RA04SE), with Dynaudio (DM 2/6) speakers and the MF VDac II. All have larger siblings (RA06, DM2/7 and M1DAC) should you want more.

There are few floorstanders that fit both your budget and my liking, other than the Kef iQ series which is sadly discontinued. In the same price range as the RX6 you can find the Dali Ikon range, Tannoy Revolution (I prefer the Signature DC4T over the regular DC6T) and B&W 684. The latter needs a better amplifier then either PM6004 or RA04, I think.

 

[Anonymous]

Many thanks for this feedback. I'll check your suggestions out.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Tremon - quite a few new things for me to investigate here!

But very helpful suggestions.

Many thanks,

Mark

 

[acalex]

MA RX6 are amazing speakers, probably the best in their price range. They might be a bit boomy sometimes as they need some space behind. After running in things got much better for me. They need quite some time to sound at their best.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Tremon - quite a few new things for me to investigate here!

YW.

I'm not from the UK, so I don't know which brands are easily available and which are hard to find. I prefer to drop a lot of brands and then hope that at least one will be available in your area

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks 'the record spot'. Yes, there does seem to be some good feedback on the Onkyo, with some caveats around some of the network streaming functionality. But my question would be, if this box is cramming in a network streamer, and a DAC, how much of the budget out of current £249ish price is left for quality ampi'ing?

Well, perhaps this is immaterial, if the device sounds as good as you (and some of the other reviewers) imply - I guess I just need to audition it. But I still wonder if I spent all my money on the amp bit, and worried about DAC & network streaming another day, whether I wouldn't get a better amp?

Just a thought!

 

[matthewpiano]

Audition the Onkyo and make your own mind up. I've owned most of the budget amps out there - Marantz PM6003, Rotel RA04SE, Yamaha A-S500, NAD C326, Yamaha A-S700, Cambridge Audio 350A and 650A plus several others - and I find the Onkyo more satisfying and enjoyable than any of them. It gets a superb performance out of my Quad speakers, which aren't the easiest and can sound veiled with an amp that doesn't get them sufficient current. Of course, no amp will work equally well with every speaker so an audition is the best way.

Of those other budget amps the Marantz is very good but can lack some clarity, particularly in the bass, and won't give difficult speakers enough current. The NAD is a very capable amp with plenty of current for driving most speakers, but it can get a bit bass heavy and almost hollow sounding in the bass if not partnered with real care.

The Rotel is an excellent amplifier and I have little to criticise about it. Likewise the Cambridge Audio 650A which is a heck of an amp for the £250 price tag it is now being sold for, end of line. The 650A will give you clarity in spades, though you need to be very careful to avoid clinical sounding speakers to achieve a satisfying end result.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

According to the German test, the NAD 316BEE is better than the Onyo in terms of amplification, but note that was with far better quality speakers than you'd usually put on the Onkyo - Kef Reference 207/2, no less. The NAD, so they said, controlled the speakers more and treble was less sibilant. Points - Onkyo 68, NAD 70. As a point of reference, the new Rega Brio R scored 90 and the Nait5i 95.

 

[CnoEvil]

According to the German test, the NAD 316BEE is better than the Onyo in terms of amplification, but note that was with far better quality speakers than you'd usually put on the Onkyo - Kef Reference 207/2, no less....

.....Blimey! That would measure how "less bad" they sound.

 

[Overdose]

For a 'passive' setup, I'd say the Onkyo looks favourite, largely due to its functionality, add whatever speakers suit your taste/remaining budget.

For an 'active' setup, have a look at the AVI ADM 9s

There are benefits to both routes, but for now, I'm in the active camp. The explanations as to the differences between active and passive speakers are perhaps best found elsewhere, so that the thread does not become bogged down.

 

[the record spot]

According to the German test, the NAD 316BEE is better than the Onyo in terms of amplification, but note that was with far better quality speakers than you'd usually put on the Onkyo - Kef Reference 207/2, no less. The NAD, so they said, controlled the speakers more and treble was less sibilant. Points - Onkyo 68, NAD 70. As a point of reference, the new Rega Brio R scored 90 and the Nait5i 95.

I think those scores were for "RCA Phono" performance as their mag put it in the review. I assume that means via analogue outputs. Yet the write-up is far more indicative of where they were coming from I think.

And, I have to say that having been round more than my fair share of amps this past two or three years, I echo what matthewpiano mentioned earlier. The sound quality is of a high order indeed - YMMV - but given I've now heard it with a variety of sources and speakers, I'm yet to be disappointed with it. In fact, that surprises me as I thought I'd need to make allowances for something...the Onkyo probably isn't the best out there, you can only work with the budget you've got to do the design and build, but I'd certainly be prepared to vouch for it being one of the most satisfying.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I had originally budgeted about £1k in total for amp & speakers. Yesterday I auditioned Marantz 6004 & both B&W CM1's & MA RX1's. Overall was very dissapointed in sound. Some things sounded OK...others just sounded...small, boxed in.

he he . palnar speakers for you my friend if you want to fight the boxiness. Magnepan MG12 are great value but the speakers themselves are above your dedicated budget and you'll need a good quality amp to drive them without worries (not the most powerful one but one with good quality power supply and stable into 4 Ohm loads) or you'll get blown fuses in speakers every time you turn up the volume.

It seemed to me that, when the track was quite simple (just acoustic guitar & voice, solo piano, solo cello) the setup sounded amazing. but as soon as a full orchestra, or more complex band music came in, the quality dived. It just got muddy, lack of clairity, lack of focus. That doesn't happen with same sound source in my headphones (Bose over ear, or Kplisch in-ear) or my car, so why should it here?)

what you heard was poor quality amp - struggling to amplify correctly complex audio passages due to, most likely, slow transient response and inefficient power supply (but one is always connected with the other). and also speaker crossover distortion - that's something every multi-driver passive speaker will suffer, especially on the budget side of the market. cheap passive components in the crossover network (especially capacitors) are very inaccurate. they blur transients.

If I were prepared to push my budget up to, say a max of £2k for both amp & speakers (I'd rather not! But if I had to, for a sound I was happy with, I would), could I be looking at something that would be significantly better than this setup?

a good option for you (apart from MAgnepan speakers + a good amp) would be AVI active speakers. active speakers are better than passive ones because there's no poor quality passive components in crossover network and also power amps don't need to be highest quality because they only amplify a fraction of audio spectrum. so the end result is better sound for reasonable amount of money. AVI speakers users on this forum are usually very satisfied with the performance and always notice improvement in SQ going from a passive set up. and AVI ADM 9T with a matching subwoofer will be around 2K.

 

[Overdose]

Or used at £700 without sub....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Avi-adm9-active-speakers-monitors-piano-gloss-white-stands-and-qed-cables-/320816567845?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4ab2285625

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Magnepan plus something like a Nait 5i driving them, that's what I'd go for. In fact, I did! You do need a bit of space around them - we're a bit pushed here, to be frank, so don't probably hear them at their best, but that's still better than many other speakers I've heard.

Record spot, I had another look at the Onkyo test. The phono side scored 60, and the CD/DAC etc scored 68, which was the final score. As you say mate, it's all the other things it does that makes it a bit of a bargy

 

[bluedroog]

I would suggest the XTZ set-up of 99.36 speakers with their ribbon tweeter powered by the XTZ D3 amp. That would be under £2k and sounds stunning. Detailed treble and powerful bass.

Also consider the PMC GB1i's perhaps driven by a Naim amp.

 

[matthewpiano]

Magnepan plus something like a Nait 5i driving them, that's what I'd go for. In fact, I did! You do need a bit of space around them - we're a bit pushed here, to be frank, so don't probably hear them at their best, but that's still better than many other speakers I've heard.

Record spot, I had another look at the Onkyo test. The phono side scored 60, and the CD/DAC etc scored 68, which was the final score. As you say mate, it's all the other things it does that makes it a bit of a bargy

The German test is by no means a final word on these things. IMO the sound of the Onkyo makes it a bit of a bargain, quite apart from the extra functionality. As I've said before, I ended up buying it over the Rega Brio-R and I don't feel like I've lost anything sound quality wise by doing so.

 

[Pistol Pete1]

Magnepan plus something like a Nait 5i driving them, that's what I'd go for. In fact, I did! You do need a bit of space around them - we're a bit pushed here, to be frank, so don't probably hear them at their best, but that's still better than many other speakers I've heard.

Record spot, I had another look at the Onkyo test. The phono side scored 60, and the CD/DAC etc scored 68, which was the final score. As you say mate, it's all the other things it does that makes it a bit of a bargy

The German test is by no means a final word on these things. IMO the sound of the Onkyo makes it a bit of a bargain, quite apart from the extra functionality. As I've said before, I ended up buying it over the Rega Brio-R and I don't feel like I've lost anything sound quality wise by doing so.

Did you demo both the Rega and Onkyo side by side, MattyP?

 

[matthewpiano]

Hi Pete. To be fair, no. I've had to go off seperate listening sessions. However, as my hi-fi history shows, I'm usually left wondering what if, and this time I have no such thoughts. I know it isn't that scientific as a method of comparing the two amps, but I have heard both extensively now and I absolutely don't feel like I've lost anything by choosing the Onkyo. To be fair I never really felt the Rega offered a lot more than my previous Cambridge 650A in terms of sound. The Rega is a great amp, but so are some of these others. Hope that helps!

 

[moon]

I took quite a long look and listen to the 8050 recently, whilst I liked the sound quality and the feature count, I thought the build quality let itself down. Having said that it's only 250 pounds at the moment so bomb proof isn't always available. Stick it next to the Marantz 6004 and you can see the difference, the Marantz doesn't have the feature count of the Onkyo at all but sound quality wise, I thought it sounded beautiful, and quite an improvement on the 6003.

So I guess if you need the features then the Onkyo would suit, however, If it's just sound quality you want the 6004 is the business for 250 pounds.

edit, I see you have already auditioned the 6004. well trying it at home with run in speakers is probably a better test. Anywaygood luck with your search . note. the last way I would ever describe the 6004 is boxed in as has been previously mentioned in this thread.

 

[Pistol Pete1]

I took quite a long look and listen to the 8050 recently, whilst I liked the sound quality and the feature count, I thought the build quality let itself down. Having said that it's only 250 pounds at the moment so bomb proof isn't always available. Stick it next to the Marantz 6004 and you can see the difference, the Marantz doesn't have the feature count of the Onkyo at all but sound quality wise, I thought it sounded beautiful, and quite an improvement on the 6003.

So I guess if you need the features then the Onkyo would suit, however, If it's just sound quality you want the 6004 is the business for 250 pounds.

Big difference in sound quality between the two, moon? Can you describe the difference if there was any?