New Amp For Kef R700 Speakers

[Frank Harvey]

The amp and speaker combination is extremely important, and you really should hear them together before committing to anything.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I agree with you David

If you look on hegel fb page kef are using hegel electronics also.

Need to listen to them together to see how they sound(not level matched haha)
But
Not worried about having the ability to drive the speakers as on a hifi review of hegel 160 the reviewer used lots of speakers and a set of demanding speakers costing 5 times more than the amp and commented that the amp easy gripped them.
Whats got me really interested in the amp is the way its made and the way they handle distortion. The cost in relation to performance and also the in built dac (dont kill me) i hear you regards future upgrade but i cant spend 2grand upwards just for better sound and another 1grand on a dac as it would be another year or 2 before i can finally relax on hifi purchase. The amp has lots of digital and optical inputs also.

But based on the amp alone im not worried about the amp driving the r700s but more worried ill be phoning you up to demo kef reference floor standers hahaha.

 

[renokki]

Hegel h160 works very very good with kef r700 ive hot hegel h80 nut h160 is à good step up!!!

 

[SteveR750]

I agree with you David

If you look on hegel fb page kef are using hegel electronics also.

Need to listen to them together to see how they sound(not level matched haha)
But
Not worried about having the ability to drive the speakers as on a hifi review of hegel 160 the reviewer used lots of speakers and a set of demanding speakers costing 5 times more than the amp and commented that the amp easy gripped them.
Whats got me really interested in the amp is the way its made and the way they handle distortion. The cost in relation to performance and also the in built dac (dont kill me) i hear you regards future upgrade but i cant spend 2grand upwards just for better sound and another 1grand on a dac as it would be another year or 2 before i can finally relax on hifi purchase. The amp has lots of digital and optical inputs also.

But based on the amp alone im not worried about the amp driving the r700s but more worried ill be phoning you up to demo kef reference floor standers hahaha.

Integrating the D/A converter in the preamp is always going to be a better solution than a separate box, so I'd ignore the review comments that this is a disadvantage. Quite why anyone would want to add a separate dac to the H160 is a mystery, there really is no need. The dac chip is extremely capable. The only thing you might wish for in the future is more power; the H30 would work well with H160 as a dac preamp.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Integrating the D/A converter in the preamp is always going to be a better solution than a separate box, so I'd ignore the review comments that this is a disadvantage. Quite why anyone would want to add a separate dac to the H160 is a mystery, there really is no need. The dac chip is extremely capable. The only thing you might wish for in the future is more power; the H30 would work well with H160 as a dac preamp.

Yes, there are advantages to incorporating it into the amp or pre-amp, but the downside is that should DAC technology improve, and you should want your system to improve with it, you'll need to change the amplification as well. And if the amp manufacturer doesn't keep up with DAC technology (very few are top notch at both), your system won't be performing as good as it should do further down the line. You'll then have to replace both.

 

[SteveR750]

Integrating the D/A converter in the preamp is always going to be a better solution than a separate box, so I'd ignore the review comments that this is a disadvantage. Quite why anyone would want to add a separate dac to the H160 is a mystery, there really is no need. The dac chip is extremely capable. The only thing you might wish for in the future is more power; the H30 would work well with H160 as a dac preamp.

Yes, there are advantages to incorporating it into the amp or pre-amp, but the downside is that should DAC technology improve, and you should want your system to improve with it, you'll need to change the amplification as well. And if the amp manufacturer doesn't keep up with DAC technology (very few are top notch at both), your system won't be performing as good as it should do further down the line. You'll then have to replace both.

Possibly, but im my experience, there is next to no difference in the SQ a DAC brings to a system, unless you spend stupid amounts of money, e.g. Chord QBD76. Once you're in that territory, you probably won't be using a one box integrated amp. Is DAC chip tech really going to change that much? Is it not the integration into the analogue circuits that skilfull bit?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

The dac chip is extremely capable. The only thing you might wish for in the future is more power; the H30 would work well with H160 as a dac preamp.

Hi Steve

Spot on. The DAC part of the H160 is indeed extremely capable

The H160 does also work well as a DAC/pre amp into the H30

Just to add the H30 feels as though as its got power to launch speakers into space *biggrin*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

Possibly, but im my experience, there is next to no difference in the SQ a DAC brings to a system, unless you spend stupid amounts of money, e.g. Chord QBD76. Once you're in that territory, you probably won't be using a one box integrated amp. Is DAC chip tech really going to change that much? Is it not the integration into the analogue circuits that skilfull bit?

Well it obviously does, as Chord have had to redesign their QBD76 because of how good the Hugo and Hugo TT are. There are certainly differences when switching between Chord, Devialet, Classe, and Cyrus components, to name but a few. Some well regarded high end DACs sound good, but just lack a certain sweetness, an openness in the higher frequencies that other DACs seem to possess.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Yes you all make valid points
If i were a rich man id have 2 massive krell mono blocks. The largest kef refference floor standers or better still blades with a seperate pre amp and dac

But im a working class man with hi end tastes hahah

I was prepared to spend £1000 on a dac from chord etc and then i still needed to buy a sub for about £500 and then 2 rear speakers to go with my denon avr 2100.

Now if you add all that up plus id be spending quite a lot of cash ao to please the wife and not look like a hifi ahop in the lounge ive decided to only have stereo sound for movies and music (music being the most important) i am very happy with the r700s and i cant stop raving about them still.

I am also happy with the sound from the roksan but feel the r700 deserve better.

So an amp with intergrated dac and more power and better sound quality, even though expensive will save me money and please my wife.

Wven better is i can now sell the denon and tannoys to help pay off an amp and when im almost paid up sell the kandy so ive then got a small slice of hi end for less money than lots of budget equipment.

I sound of the hegel 160 is a large improvement over the kandy to me.

When i was in a heavy metel band in south africa i owned a 2kilowatt power amp and massive 15 inch bass bins and large speakers with horn tweater etc and to me the hegel reminded me of that sort of sound but in a very clean clear hifi way. I loved it

I still have the need to hear the 160 in my house with my speakers though but i have no doubt it will keep me happy for years or untill a rich man gives me £50 000 to spend

 

[Andrewjvt]

Hi steve

Even the roksan has good power in my house i cant really crank it up because of the old lady next door.
Dont think id need more power than h160 but i suppose you can never have enough power

 

[Andrewjvt]

I want to be happy with a 160
If you carry on like this ill have to get a 300 hahah

 

[Frank Harvey]

Never really been overly impressed with Krell for the money..

How much power an amplifier has doesn't really tell you how powerful an amplifier will sound, how much control it will have over any speaker, or how it will sound at low or high volumes. If the amplifier you're looking for needs to sound good at low volumes, you need to audition this way, as some might be excellent at low volumes, but mediocre at high volumes, or vice versa.

Despite having a room of less than 4m square, my amp will give me 500wpc over five channels. Of course, I'm not using anywhere near that sort of power, and I know there are lesser powered amplifiers out there that perform better.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Test

 

[SteveR750]

Never really been overly impressed with Krell for the money..

How much power an amplifier has doesn't really tell you how powerful an amplifier will sound, how much control it will have over any speaker, or how it will sound at low or high volumes. If the amplifier you're looking for needs to sound good at low volumes, you need to audition this way, as some might be excellent at low volumes, but mediocre at high volumes, or vice versa.

Despite having a room of less than 4m square, my amp will give me 500wpc over five channels. Of course, I'm not using anywhere near that sort of power, and I know there are lesser powered amplifiers out there that perform better.

Indeed there is a danger in assuming that a higher power rated amp will sound meatier, deeper bass, more dynamic etc, which is not necesarily the case at all. As you say, it depends on how difficult / insensitive the load is, and how loud you want to listen.

I get what you're saying about DACs, but the sonic differences per £ spent are much less than any other part of the analogue chain, on the basis that a separate DAC has some form of analogue circuits to provide the line level voltage into the preamp. Is there really a lot of tech left to develop in the actual D/A chip? Tech that actually makes a sonic difference?

I was playing some random stuff from my PC, using my phone as a remote. There are 3 files of the same song on one album, I knew that either one or two of the three was 24/96 but no way of telling from the phone, and the PC screen was off. I could not tell the three tracks apart, all modern recordings (Porcupine Tree) with the hi res version having been downloaded direct from PT's website which I'm sure I read was mastered in hi res, not simply upsampled. I suspect I'm not alone in not being able to hear any real benefit with hi res audio, bearing in mind I've got a pretty revealing system, and my ears function perfectly well for a middle aged male! In which case, like me; the prospect of having a fixed DAC technology built in is no hardship. If I was about to throw a grand + at a new DAC, it would be in the context of a much more capable (and probably expensive) system than the one I already have. That's why I think, in the case of a £2k Hegel amp, the issue of having restricted DAC choice is irrelevant, it's not a handicap to future upgrades.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Differences between equipment aren't necessarily new appreciated by good recordings like Porcupine Tree - they'll pretty much sound good on almost anything. Recordings that are perceived to be lower quality can actually show greater differences, as they're not actually that bad, they're just not dealt with very well by budget equipment.

And then I'm back to how people listen to music - which aspects they concentrate on when trying to tell stuff apart. A little like what people see when looking at a painting...

 

[Andrewjvt]

All i can say that my kandy k2 is no slouch but the hegel chewed it up and spat it out for breakfast in everyway. Bass mids and top end much clearer. Very noticable. Ear crushing volume with such clarity and with the very good dac and digital connections its great value for money

 

[SteveR750]

Differences between equipment aren't necessarily new appreciated by good recordings like Porcupine Tree - they'll pretty much sound good on almost anything. Recordings that are perceived to be lower quality can actually show greater differences, as they're not actually that bad, they're just not dealt with very well by budget equipment.

And then I'm back to how people listen to music - which aspects they concentrate on when trying to tell stuff apart. A little like what people see when looking at a painting...

True, but a DAC is not the place to spend your money looking to make old/poor recordings sounds great.

 

[bartwuster]

True, but a DAC is not the place to spend your money looking to make old/poor recordings sounds great.

To each his own.

Doesn't mean that when you can't hear any difference between DAC, all other people can't hear it too.

If you are happy with mediocre DAC in certain amp + DAC combo then just enjoy it.

 

[Andrewjvt]

True, but a DAC is not the place to spend your money looking to make old/poor recordings sounds great.

To each his own.

Doesn't mean that when you can't hear any difference between DAC, all other people can't hear it too.

If you are happy with mediocre DAC in certain amp + DAC combo then just enjoy it. 
ive compared the dac to a very expensive cd player and hardly any difference and i can normally hear subtle differences pretty easy. I also try not to be influenced by brand when testing.

 

[bartwuster]

ive compared the dac to a very expensive cd player and hardly any difference and i can normally hear subtle differences pretty easy. I also try not to be influenced by brand when testing.

Good for you then..

 

[SteveR750]

True, but a DAC is not the place to spend your money looking to make old/poor recordings sounds great.

To each his own.

Doesn't mean that when you can't hear any difference between DAC, all other people can't hear it too.

If you are happy with mediocre DAC in certain amp + DAC combo then just enjoy it.

Absolutely, it's all somewhat subjective anyway. Very few DACs are mediocre though, hence in my experience there isn't such a big improvement when you spend a lot more. A QBD76 (£3k) whilst souning better than a £300 dacmagic has nowhere the same sonic changes if you upgraded your speakers or amp by ten fold.

 

[Frank Harvey]

No, but if your system is well set up it should show the differences between the DACs quite easily. The differences I've heard have been through KEF Blades, so maybe it is cheating a little, but I've heard internal DACs from many products like Classe CP800, Classe Sigma SSP, Bryston SP3, Bryston BDA1 and 2, OPPO BDP105, Cyrus DACxp, Devialet 200, Audiolab 8200CDQ, Naim NDX, Wadia 361, Chord DSX1000, and probably a few others I can't think of right now. There are a few of those that didn't feel like they were doing a good enough job to be used in that particular system with those speakers, despite good reviews. The better ones seem to sound quite sweet and completely free of the speakers, with the others just adding a little something they shouldn't, and drawing attention to the speakers.