naim question

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

My nait xs is the first amp I've owned that can make any sense of bring the boys back home on pink floyd's the wall album..it is a fantastic short test for a stereo systems dynamics and ability to unravel all that......well noise.lol oh and I got it for £750....I doubt there's an amplifier out there as good for that kind of money.

Also I think some might forget...Naim has a fantastic marketing strategy with dealerships throughout the country with available kit to dem and buy right through the UK.....some other exclusive high end manufacturers are very hard to get a hold of and even see in the flesh never mind take it home and listen to it......everyone on the forum seems to think that naim buyers are of less than sound body and mind....Some are very experienced buyers of hi-fi products and well informed...even electronic engineers buy into their philosophy...so why the naim bashing.....what about Cyrus ,Creek,Leema,Arcam,musical fidelity,Audio note etc etc etc...they all have expensive equipment....and I very much doubt too much is going on under the hood..it's about how the music sounds at the end of the day....I've got a wee technics midi system from the nineties full of **** under the bonnet...it sounds ****.

 

[tonky]

I must confess I've never listened to a Naim hifi yet

Snip etc

You pays your money etc - Personally tho I'd find it very difficult to criticise a manufacturer if I hadn't listened to ANY of their equipment.

tonky

I did say right from the start that this thread was not about slating anyone's Naim gear I was interested to find what people liked about Naim and if they thought it was worth the high price Naim sells there stuff for .

no I never brought the Yamaha for what it looked or what was inside only what it sounded like and I was only using what I have to compare with the Naim flagship amplifier and what you get for the money so when I see some picture of the flagship Naim amplifier I thought for £3000 you do not get much under the hood like I have with the Yamaha .

but completely understand that the Naim amplifier would sound pretty good and Naim have been around for lots of years which is a good thing and the bonus is it's made in the U.K.

It's all good stuff BS - keeps the threads interesting - I thought you were playing the devil's advocate a bit - not heard too much Naim stuff myself (only Unitilite, Nait 5si, and a supernait) - I thought ex demo Unitilite v good value and prefer it to a much higher powered cambridge 840A v2 amp I have. - I only understood PRAT after I compared it with the 840A. One had it and the other -sadly - didn't

cheers tonky

 

[lindsayt]

It's a strange sport, looking at the inside of amplifiers and trying to corelate that to anything of any importance.

Take this amplifier for instance:

If Naim made it, how much would it cost? If Naim made it, would it look neater? If it were neater would it sound any different? Are there not enough or too many components inside this amplifier? How much did this amplifier cost the manufacturer to design and develop and how is this reflected in the selling price (of £1250 new)? What's the proportion of the materials and manufacturing coststo the selling price of this amplifier, and how does that compare to Naim amplifiers? And, most important of all, how do you think this amplifier sounds when compared to Naim power amplifiers costing £1250, £3000, £15,000, £125,000?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

it is quite amazing how manufacturers have different approaches and philosophies to building their equipment.

I like it all and want it all

 

[Vladimir]

He had some juicy stories about Naim kit, considering he sold it in a HiFi shop for years.
One was about pluging in those hollow flatcap boxes and not being wired at all and not doing anything (or something like that), yet the customer was chuffed. Listening is also visual. Stack em black pizza boxes high.
Its a business model. Women slap overpriced perfumed vegetable fat on their faces all the time, no one questions it. First world problems.

 

[Pedro]

Listening is also visual and there are other factors like expectation bias, the placebo effect and psychoacoustics. But that goes for pretty much anything in hifi. But admittedly Naim is very good at marketing.

 

[Vladimir]

Listening is also visual and there are other factors like expectation bias, the placebo effect and psychoacoustics. But that goes for pretty much anything in hifi. But admittedly Naim is very good at marketing.

When we listen we don't shut out the rest of our senses or memory or expectations. It all plays into the final impression. In blind tests Pepsi tastes better than Coke but in sighted tests most prefer Coke, convinced it tastes better. That's the whole point of marketing - creating demand.

Speaking of build quality, new Naim stuff is superb, in that aspect justifies its price somewhat. Don't be fooled by the lack of heatsink area, the case is the heatsink (molded aluminium) and topology runs almost fully in Class B, so not much heat going on. Circuit design is horrendous outdated rubbish, but that gives it the sonic character. Otherwise it would be like any other amp and customers don't want that.

 

[davidf]

I've got a question and it's been bugging me for a long time now I am not after a new amplifier here just to find out why Naim stuff is so expensive for not a lot of electronics inside .

now I understand they are made in the U.K. Which is a good thing but when you look inside a Naim supernait 2 which I think is Naim's flagship amplifier there not really much inside to honor the very large price tag apart from the large power supply .

forgive me to those people who own one or any Naim stuff a specially Mark as I am sure he will be a long in a minute to tell me off . I do not want to slate the brand just interested to find out what makes this brand so good for the money .

I've not read through the thread, but I just wanted to add that Naim do take the time to electrically compare the components that are used inside their products, and match pairs to within a pretty small tolerance to ensure the difference between the two channel is kept to a minimum. Most manufacturers would just buy a big box of components and just pick the first ones to hand. There could be +/-10dB difference between them, but Naim match them to within a couple of dB or something. I forget the exact figures. A process that takes time, and therefore, man hours.

 

[Vladimir]

I've got a question and it's been bugging me for a long time now I am not after a new amplifier here just to find out why Naim stuff is so expensive for not a lot of electronics inside .

now I understand they are made in the U.K. Which is a good thing but when you look inside a Naim supernait 2 which I think is Naim's flagship amplifier there not really much inside to honor the very large price tag apart from the large power supply .

forgive me to those people who own one or any Naim stuff a specially Mark as I am sure he will be a long in a minute to tell me off . I do not want to slate the brand just interested to find out what makes this brand so good for the money .

I've not read through the thread, but I just wanted to add that Naim do take the time to electrically compare the components that are used inside their products, and match pairs to within a pretty small tolerance to ensure the difference between the two channel is kept to a minimum. Most manufacturers would just buy a big box of components and just pick the first ones to hand. There could be +/-10dB difference between them, but Naim match them to within a couple of dB or something. I forget the exact figures. A process that takes time, and therefore, man hours.

It's a necessity because of the terrible circuit design. Most amps are not that badly designed and can work with much wider tolerances. In that aspect the cheapest Denon is much better than any Naim amp.

 

[davidf]

It's a necessity because of the terrible circuit design. Most amps are not that badly designed and can work with much wider tolerances. In that aspect the cheapest Denon is much better than any Naim amp.

Please do elaborate.

 

[andyjm]

There seems to be the belief that somehow Naim products are over priced. I do not believe that to be the case.

As I explained in my misunderstood post earlier in the thread, (if you will excuse the pun) in hifi, volume is everything.

Electronics cost very little to make in volume. A raspberry Pi has well over a billion transistors and costs £35. A Naim amp may have less than 50 active components and cost £1000s.

Naim is a niche player in a niche market. In electronic terms, it is a cottage industry. Their overhead costs (particularly R&D) when amortised over a small number of products will swamp their material costs.

If you only sell 100s of a product, it will cost £1000s.

 

[Vladimir]

It's a necessity because of the terrible circuit design. Most amps are not that badly designed and can work with much wider tolerances. In that aspect the cheapest Denon is much better than any Naim amp.

Please do elaborate.

I have, before, many times. Others have too. Do your research.

 

[davidf]

No time for that right now, I was just interested in your answer in this particular instance, and as I don't recall reading anything you've written about amplifier design before.

 

[Vladimir]

No time for that right now, I was just interested in your answer in this particular instance, and as I don't recall reading anything you've written about amplifier design before.

Theres whole history behind it, how Julian started, where he got the first circuit design, his partnership with Ivor etc. etc. Can't type all of it in details from my phone. Explaining why they have to match output transistors closely can take loads of typing to explain.
Think about it logically. They are so pedantic and precise in manufacturing those amps, yet they measure terribly for noise, they develop hums, need regular servicing and so on. They use short signal paths again because of the bad design, to lessen the suceptability for noise. Tons of typing required to explain why they use very high pre gain. And lots of other tech mumbo jumbo. Imagine how piss poor the sound quality would be if they didn't do so. Naim has the most compromised design of any SS amp. They've kept the cottage industry flavor from the flat earth days despite their current manufacturing capabilities. Simply because it sells.

 

[davidf]

Ever heard a Supernait II?

 

[jjbomber]

No time for that right now, I was just interested in your answer in this particular instance, and as I don't recall reading anything you've written about amplifier design before.

He can't. He's been caught out and won't be man enough to admit it. Plenty of waffle on it's way. Well played David.

 

[davidf]

I just can't imagine a "good amplifier design" being able to ignore component tolerances. If anything, they should be more susceptible to it.

 

[lindsayt]

I've not read through the thread, but I just wanted to add that Naim do take the time to electrically compare the components that are used inside their products, and match pairs to within a pretty small tolerance to ensure the difference between the two channel is kept to a minimum. Most manufacturers would just buy a big box of components and just pick the first ones to hand. There could be +/-10dB difference between them, but Naim match them to within a couple of dB or something. I forget the exact figures. A process that takes time, and therefore, man hours.

I'm not buying that as a USP for Naim.

Do Accuphase just chuck all the first components that come to hand into their amplifiers?

What with the Japanese cultural obsession with quality control?

Who are these "most manufacturers"? Name and shame them.

Are Musical Fidelity one? Any others?

 

[chebby]

David sells this stuff he doesn't design it or make it.

Let's not hold his feet to the fire for too long. He'll not be the first, or last, hi-fi salesman to come out with this kind of thing.

For example, a shop assistant at my local Naim audio stockist once claimed that my Naim system could take up to 6 weeks to 'recover' from being switched off! (He's still a lovely chap.)

The best thing about Naim is the resale value. Owning a full, entry level, Naim amp, tuner, CDP and speakers system only cost a couple of hundred quid over two years

 

[davidf]

I'm not buying that as a USP for Naim.

Do Accuphase just chuck all the first components that come to hand into their amplifiers?

What with the Japanese cultural obsession with quality control?

Who are these "most manufacturers"? Name and shame them.

Are Musical Fidelity one? Any others?

I'm not saying no one else does it. Chances are, it is standard practice for most high end manufacturers and products - but how many do it for a £1,000 product? Naim do.

I no longer sell Naim, so I've no horse in this race. I don't even need to be defending them.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

It can go the other way too i.e.a amplifier that's over engineered both Yamaha & marantz have built amplifiers that have been well over engineered in the past so I do understand Naim's principle in how they build there stuff .

but in respect of the bottom end of there market on Naim separates I would of thought they would be a little more competitive in there prices so they would match the like's of marantz PM7007 Yamaha A--S801 , Arcam A19 or A38 which I think the A19 been discontinued .

but basically Naim would do well selling around the £500-£600 mark to give people on a budget a taste of Naim if that makes any sense .

 

[Pedro]

It can go the other way too i.e.a amplifier that's over engineered both Yamaha & marantz have built amplifiers that have been well over engineered in the past so I do understand Naim's principle in how they build there stuff .

but in respect of the bottom end of there market on Naim separates I would of thought they would be a little more competitive in there prices so they would match the like's of marantz PM7007 Yamaha A--S801 , Arcam A19 or A38 which I think the A19 been discontinued .

but basically Naim would do well selling around the £500-£600 mark to give people on a budget a taste of Naim if that makes any sense .

I'm not an expert on marketing by any means, but I guess loads of people wouldn't take Naim seriously enough.

I reckon going after the 500-600 quid market would put them in a difficult spot as well, they would have to compete with brands that mass produce amps...

 

[chebby]

... so they would match the like's of marantz PM7007 Yamaha A--S801 , Arcam A19 or A38 which I think the A19 been discontinued .

The Arcam A38 was discontinued in favour of the A39. The A19 appears on their website as a current model.

There has never been a Marantz PM7007.

 

[drummerman]

In a lot of cases the size of electronics have shrunk. SFM is used widely even if you leave aside PWM and other efficient small form factor power supplies not requiring big transformers. The standard width of hifi components is still the same.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

It can go the other way too i.e.a amplifier that's over engineered both Yamaha & marantz have built amplifiers that have been well over engineered in the past so I do understand Naim's principle in how they build there stuff .

but in respect of the bottom end of there market on Naim separates I would of thought they would be a little more competitive in there prices so they would match the like's of marantz PM7007 Yamaha A--S801 , Arcam A19 or A38 which I think the A19 been discontinued .

but basically Naim would do well selling around the £500-£600 mark to give people on a budget a taste of Naim if that makes any sense .

I'm not an expert on marketing by any means, but I guess loads of people wouldn't take Naim seriously enough.

I reckon going after the 500-600 quid market would put them in a difficult spot as well, they would have to compete with brands that mass produce amps...

well it's a case of the China can knock out amplifiers cheaper then us here in the U.K. So I would of thought Naim would have larger over heads the same happened with Arcam they used to make everything up the road from me now it's all made in China .

not sure if the roskin stuff is made here still or if it's made in China but roskin is a U.K. Company