My first Cyrus. Question about volume

[Narco]

Hi

While not new to hi fi, I have recently bought my first Cyrus system and have a question about something I noticed.

From all the systems I have had, from Technics/Mission to Arcam/Monitor Audio I have rarely ever had to have the volume over 12 o clock. I know this is not scientific but it is something that I have noticed because with my new Cyrus Pre Dac and X Power I am listening at -30 which equates to about roughly 3 o clock. This is simply something I am unused to, hence the question.

Is this normal? I am running PMC speakers off it with a sensitivity of 90 therefore I don't think these are the issue and am kind of put off going to another set of PMCs I have (GB1is) as they are rated 87.

I accept that I may have all of this about face. I never have been very technical about hi fi. I like to connect it all up and then forget about it and enjoy. I must say that I am enjoying this new sound that I am unused to, very much. Maybe lacking a smidgen of bass, but I do have those Gb1i speakers I mentioned.

I have checked the connections and everything is good. Slightly confused but hoping to learn.

 

[drummerman]

Hi

While not new to hi fi, I have recently bought my first Cyrus system and have a question about something I noticed.

From all the systems I have had, from Technics/Mission to Arcam/Monitor Audio I have rarely ever had to have the volume over 12 o clock. I know this is not scientific but it is something that I have noticed because with my new Cyrus Pre Dac and X Power I am listening at -30 which equates to about roughly 3 o clock. This is simply something I am unused to, hence the question.

Is this normal? I am running PMC speakers off it with a sensitivity of 90 therefore I don't think these are the issue and am kind of put off going to another set of PMCs I have (GB1is) as they are rated 87.

I accept that I may have all of this about face. I never have been very technical about hi fi. I like to connect it all up and then forget about it and enjoy. I must say that I am enjoying this new sound that I am unused to, very much. Maybe lacking a smidgen of bass, but I do have those Gb1i speakers I mentioned.

I have checked the connections and everything is good. Slightly confused but hoping to learn.

First fo all, attenuation of most amplifiers vary depending on the volume control used ie. electronic/digital or a pot plus gain/sensitivity of the respective stages.

Some designs are calibrated that they run out/max vol. at perhaps the 12oclock position, others, like for example the more expensive Cambridge Audio designs with stepped ladder attenuation go almost to the max before reaching full output.

The amplifier doesn't lack power, it just has a more useable range.

In addition to that your cyrus may have adjustable input sensitivity which again will determine the useable range of your volume control. - Read the manual for more on that.

As to bass on the PMC's ... no idea. Some say its great, others don't but the better cyrus amplifiers have good speaker control with firm but not dry bass (other than the 6 series which has a fairly pronounced bass, mainly, I assume, due to some lack of control excerted due to the smaller power supply).

Good luck

 

[Vladimir]

What are you using as a source?

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

If I may I have had from the 6 powers to X powers to now Stereo 200. I found with the newer line up Pre2Dac with power amp that I have to push the volume up like you do I wouldnt worry and yes I would say that is normal. The X power is anything short of power and can handle your Pmc's. Its all in the design and like above some are designed to max out sooner than others. Dont worry and enjoy that wonderful midrange that the cyrus brand gives us.

 

[drummerman]

If I may I have had from the 6 powers to X powers to now Stereo 200. I found with the newer line up Pre2Dac with power amp that I have to push the volume up like you do I wouldnt worry and yes I would say that is normal. The X power is anything short of power and can handle your Pmc's. Its all in the design and like above some are designed to max out sooner than others. Dont worry and enjoy that wonderful midrange that the cyrus brand gives us.

+1

That Stereo 200 seems very nice.

 

[Narco]

Thanks for the responses, I was hoping that it wasn't too much of a dumb question. What was said makes perfect sense. Seems that there are reasons why amps are designed that way to give the majority of the volume before even 3/4 of the way turned. Sounds like a con to me.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Thanks for the responses, I was hoping that it wasn't too much of a dumb question. What was said makes perfect sense. Seems that there are reasons why amps are designed that way to give the majority of the volume before even 3/4 of the way turned. Sounds like a con to me.

Makes them appear more powerful in the demo room

 

[Narco]

First fo all, attenuation of most amplifiers vary depending on the volume control used ie. electronic/digital or a pot plus gain/sensitivity of the respective stages.

Some designs are calibrated that they run out/max vol. at perhaps the 12oclock position, others, like for example the more expensive Cambridge Audio designs with stepped ladder attenuation go almost to the max before reaching full output.

The amplifier doesn't lack power, it just has a more useable range.

In addition to that your cyrus may have adjustable input sensitivity which again will determine the useable range of your volume control. - Read the manual for more on that.

As to bass on the PMC's ... no idea. Some say its great, others don't but the better cyrus amplifiers have good speaker control with firm but not dry bass (other than the 6 series which has a fairly pronounced bass, mainly, I assume, due to some lack of control excerted due to the smaller power supply).

Good luck

Thank you, power and it's ratings are something that confuse me as I have tried to read it, I think this may be done deliberately too, marketing etc. I asked Cyrus why there were different ratings for the same amp in different sources and was told that they are in the process of finalising their rating system for more consistency? Erm?

Having a more useable range makes perfect sense and was kind of what I was hoping was the answer. I can tell with this amp that it does grudually just get louder all the time I turn the dial, even sounds better when I do. This too is unusual but very welcome, in my experience.

Am interested in Cyrus' input sensitivity and have heard about it. I will indeed research this more, thanks.

A question drummerman, when you say Cyrus' "better amps" which do you mean? I only ask as I am kind of kicking myself that I did not go for the 200 Power and am still wondering if I get to the point where I want another X Power whether to sell mine and get the 200 instead. That would be a separate topic altogether though. I am very much enjoying what I have currently I must add!

Many thanks.

 

[Narco]

What are you using as a source?

Hi.

I am currently using FLAC via USB straight to the Pre DAC. Messing around with JRiver, Foobar and MPC-HC to spot any differences in sound.

Thanks.

 

[Narco]

Thanks for the responses, I was hoping that it wasn't too much of a dumb question. What was said makes perfect sense. Seems that there are reasons why amps are designed that way to give the majority of the volume before even 3/4 of the way turned. Sounds like a con to me.

Makes them appear more powerful in the demo room

Yes I see. Plus it gives the illusion of more power, that you may not use ever. If this pleases people who am I to argue. It was what I was used to, although didn't purchase on that basis.

 

[Narco]

If I may I have had from the 6 powers to X powers to now Stereo 200. I found with the newer line up Pre2Dac with power amp that I have to push the volume up like you do I wouldnt worry and yes I would say that is normal. The X power is anything short of power and can handle your Pmc's. Its all in the design and like above some are designed to max out sooner than others. Dont worry and enjoy that wonderful midrange that the cyrus brand gives us.

Hi and thanks!

I did briefly hear a 6xp with my speakers and I must say I loved it, as drummerman said it did have a slightly more pronounced bass, which I'm sad to say I wish had carried over but I do love my current system. Something I am hoping to improve with speaker upgrade.

May I ask why you upgraded from X Power (or was it 2 in mono?) to the Power 200 and what have you noticed? I probably should not ask really but I was kind of kicking myself that it came out after I had made my purchases.

Yes, that midrange! My speakers excel at that too and it's a revelation to me.

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

sorry for the late Im in Canada. I have had probably 15 Cyrus boxes and some other lines over the years, I simply moved from the X power and before 8 powers for just that a upgrade. I have the stereo 200 now and really love it, its strong dynamic and has that mid range that I love. I cant say a bad word about it. The X power is really a under rated amp and though not as strong or doesnt have the control of the X200-X300 mono amps it can be summed in one word "musical". Adding a PSX does make a difference if you can just gives it more control FYI.

 

[drummerman]

sorry for the late Im in Canada. I have had probably 15 Cyrus boxes and some other lines over the years, I simply moved from the X power and before 8 powers for just that a upgrade. I have the stereo 200 now and really love it, its strong dynamic and has that mid range that I love. I cant say a bad word about it. The X power is really a under rated amp and though not as strong or doesnt have the control of the X200-X300 mono amps it can be summed in one word "musical". Adding a PSX does make a difference if you can just gives it more control FYI.

Yes, the PSX-R's are a great upgrade without altering the tonality but I have a feeling that the OP misses some bass 'looseness' and a PSX-R will not give him that.

With good, regulated power supplies (usually) comes control, focus and a lower noise floor. He already said he liked the 6XP which has a relatively small power stage.

There is no right or wrong imho (I've had low powered amplifiers including a tube powered one) but you (OP) have to think carefully about how you want to approach this potentially costly hobby.

Use a speaker with relatively good inherent acoustic damping with something like the 6 series cyrus amplifiers and you probably have a sympathetic match.

What the higher powered cyrus amps will give you is loudness and more options regarding speakers ie. you can use less sensitive or more reactive designs. More control over drivers is part of the package too, at least in my experience with Cyrus. - One example where this did not translate in the same way was with Roksan's K2. Although higher powered than its more expensive brother, the M2, the cheaper sibling lacked some bass control. - I believe though the power supply of the M2 even though less powerful, is/was superior.

But as I said in one of the numerous Hegel threads, use an amplifier with high damping factor/control with a speaker that has high acoustic inherent damping and the result could well end up being somewhat 'dry'.

Best make your mind up what kind of sound you like before embarking on costly upgrades/changes imho.

Just my 2c's. Mike will be better able to give further advise as he dabbles further up the cyrus ladder.

Good luck

 

[Vladimir]

What are you using as a source?

Hi.

I am currently using FLAC via USB straight to the Pre DAC. Messing around with JRiver, Foobar and MPC-HC to spot any differences in sound.

Thanks.

I'm just curious. Have you tried a CD player and hear if it goes louder sooner on the volume turn?

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I've run my 8XPd QX and DAC XP Signature with and without PSX-R.

My conclusion about the external power is that it gives more weight to the sound. Without them, the sound has always been a touch leaner and requires a bit more volume. Bass response has been a bit tighter with a PSX-R too.

I've used my X Powers with PSX-R to run them in mono and have concluded that when I've briefly run one X Power (stereo) as a comparison test I had to increase the volume by 5db.

Without a PSX-R I've run the 8XPdQX from -35db to -33. With PSX-R it is -40 to -37. Depends on quality (CD, FLAC or podcast)

Without PSX-R I've run the DAC XP Signature on -38 and with PSX-R it is -40. My best set up really benefits from having an extremely easy going pair of PMC speakers too.

I've had my Qute HD on DAC duties for the past week in the DAC XP Signature set up and I can say that at -40db the system is feeling about 2db louder than when the Cyrus DAC is doing the processing, but I've decided not to reduce the volume. I don't believe that loudness increase is down to there being more power available to the pre-amp when the unit isn't decoding, but it is rather down to a stronger input voltage from the Qute HD.

So my post might be a bit rambing but what I would definitely say as a conclusion is that tinkering with set up and looking for improvements in Cyrus systems can become equally obsessive and expensive.

 

[Narco]

sorry for the late Im in Canada. I have had probably 15 Cyrus boxes and some other lines over the years, I simply moved from the X power and before 8 powers for just that a upgrade. I have the stereo 200 now and really love it, its strong dynamic and has that mid range that I love. I cant say a bad word about it. The X power is really a under rated amp and though not as strong or doesnt have the control of the X200-X300 mono amps it can be summed in one word "musical". Adding a PSX does make a difference if you can just gives it more control FYI.

Cheers, no problem at all. I can only get on here occasionally myself.

I see. I do wonder whether if I were to put funds towards a PSX-R, would I be better off adding some extra to purchase anothe X Power. That seems in my limited opinion to offer more of a benefit? I say that not from experience but from what I have gleaned.

 

[Narco]

Yes, the PSX-R's are a great upgrade without altering the tonality but I have a feeling that the OP misses some bass 'looseness' and a PSX-R will not give him that.

With good, regulated power supplies (usually) comes control, focus and a lower noise floor. He already said he liked the 6XP which has a relatively small power stage.

There is no right or wrong imho (I've had low powered amplifiers including a tube powered one) but you (OP) have to think carefully about how you want to approach this potentially costly hobby.

Use a speaker with relatively good inherent acoustic damping with something like the 6 series cyrus amplifiers and you probably have a sympathetic match.

What the higher powered cyrus amps will give you is loudness and more options regarding speakers ie. you can use less sensitive or more reactive designs. More control over drivers is part of the package too, at least in my experience with Cyrus. - One example where this did not translate in the same way was with Roksan's K2. Although higher powered than its more expensive brother, the M2, the cheaper sibling lacked some bass control. - I believe though the power supply of the M2 even though less powerful, is/was superior.

But as I said in one of the numerous Hegel threads, use an amplifier with high damping factor/control with a speaker that has high acoustic inherent damping and the result could well end up being somewhat 'dry'.

Best make your mind up what kind of sound you like before embarking on costly upgrades/changes imho.

Just my 2c's. Mike will be better able to give further advise as he dabbles further up the cyrus ladder.

Good luck

Thanks again drummerman. I recall you explaining about the K2 and M2 elsewhere previously and understand that point. More tricky a subject than I originally thought, especially when not technically minded. Appreciated.

I do want that extra smidgen of bass but definitely do not want to sacrifice anything I have gained with the current system. I would like to try more power, another X Power or maybe the PSX-R but after testing the GB1is out and having a think. Maybe I could just incorporate a subwoofer now and again as it is only some tracks, mostly electronica where I miss some of the low bass. Good advice regarding deciding what sound I want, that's the stage I am at. Very happy but if I switch to Massive Attack I feel I'm missing out, compared to previously. More power might be beneficial overall but I feel hesitant about changing the setup to gain that bit of bass. As I mention, maybe the speakers will do that.

It will be fun finding out anyway.

 

[Narco]

What are you using as a source?

Hi.

I am currently using FLAC via USB straight to the Pre DAC. Messing around with JRiver, Foobar and MPC-HC to spot any differences in sound.

Thanks.

I'm just curious. Have you tried a CD player and hear if it goes louder sooner on the volume turn?

I have a CD player all boxed new. Was going to sell on as I decided against CD but I am curious in the same way so will expermint soon as I can.

 

[Narco]

I've run my 8XPd QX and DAC XP Signature with and without PSX-R.

My conclusion about the external power is that it gives more weight to the sound. Without them, the sound has always been a touch leaner and requires a bit more volume. Bass response has been a bit tighter with a PSX-R too.

I've used my X Powers with PSX-R to run them in mono and have concluded that when I've briefly run one X Power (stereo) as a comparison test I had to increase the volume by 5db.

Without a PSX-R I've run the 8XPdQX from -35db to -33. With PSX-R it is -40 to -37. Depends on quality (CD, FLAC or podcast)

Without PSX-R I've run the DAC XP Signature on -38 and with PSX-R it is -40. My best set up really benefits from having an extremely easy going pair of PMC speakers too.

I've had my Qute HD on DAC duties for the past week in the DAC XP Signature set up and I can say that at -40db the system is feeling about 2db louder than when the Cyrus DAC is doing the processing, but I've decided not to reduce the volume. I don't believe that loudness increase is down to there being more power available to the pre-amp when the unit isn't decoding, but it is rather down to a stronger input voltage from the Qute HD.

So my post might be a bit rambing but what I would definitely say as a conclusion is that tinkering with set up and looking for improvements in Cyrus systems can become equally obsessive and expensive.

Excellent, thanks. This is how I tend to think and describe my systems, so if it is rambling then I'm a rambler It's how you feel about what you are hearing which is how I've always been. I'm endeavouring to become slightly more technically minded, out of interest, but it is about how you feel really imo.

Another point you made that I noticed is the quality of the FLAC, these Cyrus' tend to show up an inferior file quite well, which isn't always welcome I must admit but oh well...the price we pay.

It seems there are definite benefits to the addition of PSX-Rs. I am mulling over whether they should come first or see what another X Power does and go mono. Difficult as there is no dealers around for many miles.

 

[drummerman]

Perhaps the cyrus sound is not for you.

Naim have a driving, rythmic sound with a somewhat darker tonality. They are not as apt at resolving spatial detail but their bass is a little fuller but still controlled with sympathetic speaker matching.

Naim's XS is one such example and imho superbly musical.

 

[spiny norman]

In addition to that your cyrus may have adjustable input sensitivity which again will determine the useable range of your volume control. - Read the manual for more on that.

As DM suggested, you could try increasing the input sensitivity: see p11 of the Pre DAC manual.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I had a tinker with gain yesterday on the DAC XP Signature. I wondered at the time if I was being daft for trying.

I used XLR from the pre-out into my Pathos Aurium headphone amp and at -40 dB I could hardly hear anything through the headpones. Turned pre-amp up to -10 dB and after a few little twiddles on the gain and volume controls on the Aurium I got a full-bodied but also a tad excited sound. So dialled up the gain and turned down the volume to -20 on the pre-amp and the sound in the headphones was spot on. Still not sure a pre-amp into what is effectively a pre-amp is the way to do things though *scratch_one-s_head*

We pay for these extra functions and often never try them out.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Inaccurate quote from "Spinal Tap"

"Man, I've got this new amp and the volume knob goes all the way up to ELEVEN, not ten, ELEVEN!!!"

 

[Narco]

Perhaps the cyrus sound is not for you.

Naim have a driving, rythmic sound with a somewhat darker tonality. They are not as apt at resolving spatial detail but their bass is a little fuller but still controlled with sympathetic speaker matching.

Naim's XS is one such example and imho superbly musical.

I do like it, a lot. I think I may have the quality of the source files in mind when judging certain music as it is only certain music that I feel lacks something. The Cyrus being so revealing that the differences in source file quality is more pronounced, This itself is something I am unsused to as most things sounded on par in my previous set up, unless a really bad quality file.

I think it will help once I get the Gb1i speakers connected too, if I ever get the time to test them out.

I'm slightly worried about trying Naim to be honest as I have seen what it can do to people and I may end up in divorce court.

 

[Narco]

In addition to that your cyrus may have adjustable input sensitivity which again will determine the useable range of your volume control. - Read the manual for more on that.

As DM suggested, you could try increasing the input sensitivity: see p11 of the Pre DAC manual.

Thanks, I have not got around to that yet but I fully intend to this weekend. Cheers for the pointer.