more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

[pyrrhon]

Multiple driver can achieve a bass punch just like a larger woofer. But my advise is to pay for quality component not quantity of cheaper ones. If you want a super defined clean bass a single woofer speaker is the better choice IMO. I have yet to ear a decent vintage speaker that missed the point for rock or pop while today many speakers lack vibe and room filling and produce sound without music. I still havent found the exact explaination for my last claim but its either the larger woofer or the larger wood cabinet slight coloration. I suspect today designer go way to much with science and not enough with their feelings. People who thinks like me probably escape the modern audio trend with tubes and larger woofer wooden speakers.

 

[Native_bon]

Multiple driver can achieve a bass punch just like a larger woofer. But my advise is to pay for quality component not quantity of cheaper ones. If you want a super defined clean bass a single woofer speaker is the better choice IMO.

:shame: Nope.. I got Boston Acoustics M340 speakers with 4 bass drivers on each speaker.. Yet the bass is full deep musical & tight.. I will eat my own head on this one.

 

[unknown]

once again, thanks for all further input.

 

[lindsayt]

It would take a long time to compose such a post, in detail, and I have lots to do today, but I don't mind briefly outlining what I did.

I have evaluated a lot of speakers, over an extended period of time, basically, in three different rooms. Basically I used a comparison system. The speakers which were used as 'controls' were ESL57, Spendor LS3/5a and BC1s, and AVI pro nine+. Amplification was always AVI, mostly Lab series Integrated. Sources were variously Revox B77, AVI cdp, Mac and WinPC, an RME Fireface, an Apogee Mini-Dac, a portable flash card recorder, Sony mini-disc, or an iPod running Wavs. I never used vinyl, or compressed lossy files, for these tests, but I did check out lossy compression, and records for other reasons. Most of the time I used Revox RR, Apogee Dac, or RME Fireface, with Macbook Pro laptop...

Thanks for that. So your "control" speakers have been:

ESL57's - electrostatic speakers. I like these a lot due to their magical midrange. However due to their dipole nature there are some rooms in which they wil not work so well and they do have limitations in the bass and treble. They also benefit from refurbishment every 15 years or so.

Ls3/5a - tiny sealed two way speakers. I have found these fine for speech. Not very good at all for music.

Spendor BC1 - 3 way ported speakers. I really haven't enjoyed BC1's when I've heard them. Too tubby and lacking in crispness and dynamics.

AVI Pro Nine + - tiny ported 2 way speakers.

Always with solid state amplification.

Nothing in that list has an efficiency of over 90dbs/2.83v/1m.

Nothing in that list has a bass cone bigger than 8".

I have four pairs of speakers that are different to all of your control speakers. None of them would ever have been stocked by your local hi-fi dealer that you used to visit every day and none of them would have been stocked by your pro-dealer when you visited him.

It's interesting that you said that you're after "A replay system should be ruthlessly accurate and transparent, otherwise how can one appreciate what the recording is supposed to represent." In my experience, the systems that I've come across that have been described as thus are all left brain and no right brain. Good for detail, but dynamically compressed and on the lean side of tonal neutrality. Great for people who want to analayse recordings. Flawed for people such as myself who want both their left and right brains to be stimulated. To get the detail as well as the bounce, the fun, the rhythm, the dynamics of the music.

For the 3 and 4 ways that I've compared against 2 ways, it's been the 3 or 4 ways that have had greater clarity on vocals at more generous volumes. That could be entirely down to the particular speakers that I've compared. Or it could be something else.

It seems to me that our opinions on speakers are so different because your priorities and my priorities are differerent in terms of what we're after in a system. Also, I've tried some equipment that you've apparently never used. Plus your evaluation tracks are way different to mine.

 

[jcbrum]

It would take a long time to compose such a post, in detail, and I have lots to do today, but I don't mind briefly outlining what I did.

I have evaluated a lot of speakers, over an extended period of time, basically, in three different rooms. Basically I used a comparison system. The speakers which were used as 'controls' were ESL57, Spendor LS3/5a and BC1s, and AVI pro nine+. Amplification was always AVI, mostly Lab series Integrated. Sources were variously Revox B77, AVI cdp, Mac and WinPC, an RME Fireface, an Apogee Mini-Dac, a portable flash card recorder, Sony mini-disc, or an iPod running Wavs. I never used vinyl, or compressed lossy files, for these tests, but I did check out lossy compression, and records for other reasons. Most of the time I used Revox RR, Apogee Dac, or RME Fireface, with Macbook Pro laptop...

Thanks for that. So your "control" speakers have been:

Always with solid state amplification.

Nothing in that list has an efficiency of over 90dbs/2.83v/1m.

Nothing in that list has a bass cone bigger than 8".

You might have mis-understood what I meant by 'control' loudspeakers.

Those are simply the ones which I am very familiar with, and they are reasonably portable for comparisons in differing locations. Do not confuse them with the 'best', and I have used and listened to plenty of speakers with bigger and more numerous speakers.

That is the purpose of a 'control' loudspeaker, to provide a sample with which others may be compared, to determine whether the 'subject' loudspeaker is better or worse.

I have four pairs of speakers that are different to all of your control speakers. None of them would ever have been stocked by your local hi-fi dealer that you used to visit every day and none of them would have been stocked by your pro-dealer when you visited him.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, he sells a lot of second-hand speakers, and has been doing so for more than 40 years. He is very experienced indeed with vintage and classic hifi. Generally, with a few exceptions, I'm not such a fan of old kit. Possibly I could have kept my Quad II amps, which were of course valves, but they just had no further utility other than nostalgia.

Also it may interest you to know that he was a Klipsch dealer, I tried a lot of those, and used to have weekly meetings with Guy, the Klipsch importer at that time.

Generally I think 'big old' loudspeakers are a load of junk and trouble which take up too much houseroom, and are far surpassed by the best modern designs.

However, I understand nostalgia, and your liking for what you enjoy, but it's not really hifi in the best up to date sense, as I see it.

JC

 

[jcbrum]

p.s. The Rugby is starting on telly England is playing Wales, right now :wave: - JC

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm off to watch a film then...

 

[lindsayt]

...Generally I think 'big old' loudspeakers are a load of junk and trouble which take up too much houseroom, and are far surpassed by the best modern designs...

JC

Generally speaking - you may be right. There are a lot of big old speakers that I don't like.

However there are some that I like the sound of a lot.

JC, when it comes to hi-fi we are poles apart. You like what you like. I like what I like. You don't like what I like. I don't like what you like now and I don't like most of the equipment that you've used and therefore by implication liked in the past.

That's all fine. We can all have different tastes.

Where does that leave anyone else reading this? All the people that are not you and not me? My advise to them is to listen for themselves and make their own mind up. I've said this already a few times and will repeat it once more: I would be very happy to bring a a system I can chuck in the back of my car and bring it to a comparative demo at someone's house or a dealers where we compare it against any 2 way active plus sub system.

It's a pretty pointless exercise saying "My system sounds better than yours because,,," "No mines better than yours because..." on an online forum. These are all just words. And they will all be from the point of view of the poster. Nothing will ever get proven from such online debate. A comparative demo on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Where the equipment does the talking. It's a truth test for hi-fi.

 

[Electro]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=AVI+ACTIVE+SPEAKERS+WITH+SUB+&word2=LARGE++PASSIVE+LOUDSPEAKERS+

Sorry in advance , I couldn't help myself

 

[Native_bon]

...Generally I think 'big old' loudspeakers are a load of junk and trouble which take up too much houseroom, and are far surpassed by the best modern designs...

JC

Generally speaking - you may be right. There are a lot of big old speakers that I don't like.

However there are some that I like the sound of a lot.

JC, when it comes to hi-fi we are poles apart. You like what you like. I like what I like. You don't like what I like. I don't like what you like now and I don't like most of the equipment that you've used and therefore by implication liked in the past.

That's all fine. We can all have different tastes.

Where does that leave anyone else reading this? All the people that are not you and not me? My advise to them is to listen for themselves and make their own mind up. I've said this already a few times and will repeat it once more: I would be very happy to bring a a system I can chuck in the back of my car and bring it to a comparative demo at someone's house or a dealers where we compare it against any 2 way active plus sub system.

It's a pretty pointless exercise saying "My system sounds better than yours because,,," "No mines better than yours because..." on an online forum. These are all just words. And they will all be from the point of view of the poster. Nothing will ever get proven from such online debate. A comparative demo on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Where the equipment does the talking. It's a truth test for hi-fi.

I LIKE THIS. VERY WELL SAID

 

[Native_bon]

A popular view piont does not always mean it's the truth.