Marantz & Tannoy / DAC , SUB or SACD advice please.

[admin_exported]

Hello Forum,

I have just begun my journey into the land of Hi-Fi and my mission to find musical nirvana, so I thought I would share my experience of some recent equipment purchases and would also be grateful for any advice and opinions of how I might continue to improve my music listening experience from here.

I prefer to buy second hand equipment on eBay or ex-display and managed to pick up a Marantz KI-Pearl Lite a few months ago for £500 and matched this with a pair of Dynaudio 52's. My listening room is 6m x 8m so I started looking for some floor standing speakers and thought I had a bargain when I saw some Focal 726v's reduced from £1,000 to £550.

It wasn't a good match. I found the highs sounded really harsh and were fatiguing to listen to. I bought some 12 AWG speaker cable (nothing too pricy - about £40 for the pair) and whilst this did make a difference (really, it did!), after a couple of months running in, I was still not happy with the sound.

I had bought the Focal’s from Nintronics and when I called to ask if they could do me a deal on a return the guys there immediately offered to take them back with a full refund if I bought something else. They suggested I come in for a demo and I was considering the Dali Ikon 6's when they offered me a pair of ex-display Tannoy 6.4's for £1,500. So, I dug deeper into the budget and bought these beautiful cabinets in a high gloss, dark mahogany finish.

I play a lot of FLAC files from a networked hard drive and also Spotify via a Sonos Connect (another eBay bargain!) and I am really pleased with the sound.

The Tannoy’s have a lower base response than I was expecting (there’s a track by Underworld called Rivers of Bass which has a very low (I mean really low) rumble at the start so that you can feel the sound waves even though they are so low you can only just hear them. Listening to folk or jazz I find them exciting to listen to with a great sound stage. They do seem to work with all types of music including house, rock, classical, jazz, funk whatever. They are a pleasure to own.

Which finally brings me onto my request for any advice from the community and thank you for your thoughts here, I will be logging back in to respond.

I was wondering if the next upgrade should be a DAC or a Sub or something else? I know what I have said above about the great base response however I do also like to listen to reggae and I do like to turn up the volume when I can.

I have a budget of about £200-500 for the next piece of equipment and was wondering which direction to go.

Would a DAC with a pre-amp be a good idea? (the Marantz has an input for Power amp direct in). I’ve also been looking at the Music Fidelity M1 DAC and the Arcam rDAC. I would feed the DAC a signal from the Sonos optical out but not sure how much improvement in sound quality iImight hope to achieve with this? I was also wondering if I should look at a wireless DAC and drop the Sonos out of the equation.

With subs I have looked at some REL options which seem to be in my price range but don’t really know what to look for in a sub. Which other brands should I be looking for a bargain on eBay?

Is an SACD with a DAC going to make the most significant difference to the sound reproduction? I'm nervous about having to buy all my favourite music again in another format but will go down this route if its the best way to go?

If you have read this far then thanks very much for sticking with me and I look forward to hearing any suggestions and advice.

ps. I have considered my options regarding the room acoustics.

Thanks!

 

[the record spot]

Hi Alex,

Welcome to the forum. Some nice stuyff there. Re: your query about SACDs and DACs. Ca' canny here as only a few DACs will give you the DSD stream (e.g. the new Teac UD501). Check also that you can stream DSD in its native format as opposed to conversion to PCM. I am guessing that the amp doesn't permit this.

To be fair, there's no big difference, most of the time you'll get more mileage out of finding good recordings and great mastering jobs than a given format. Some hi-res recordings have a different mastering (the process that handles the transition from the source recording to the eventual disc release, very very roughly speaking). The Steve Hoffman music forum is very good for this - invaluable resource if you're interested in this stuff.

So...unless you're desperate for a separate DAC, I'd stick with where you're at or seek out a sub (though it sounds as if your speakers are doing a fine job on their own!).

 

[cannibal_ox77]

Hi Alex,

There's a nice REL B2 up for auction on ebay at the moment, might be worth watching. Looks like its in excellent condition although the finish is cherry. The Tannoy TS12.2 is within budget too and that might be a good match with your speakers. Speaking of the Precision range, they look fantastic. When I come to part with my old RS6's I'll definitely look at the 6.2s (my room is a bit smaller, 3.5 x 7.5m). Looking to swap my Pearl Lite for a dedicated power amp or monos first, I think these speakers have more to give with even more power. I'll not be parting with the Pearl Lite though, it's a fantastic amp and will be used in a separate setup once the house is sorted!

If you are interested in a DAC with pre-amp, have a look at the audiolab 8200DQ. You might be able to find one at a good price ex-demo (£550-£650). I got my CDQ for £650 in 'as new' condition. I wasn't really looking for a pre-amp, just a better CD player& DAC, but the pre-amp has solved a problem in my setup and made it a lot more convenient and enjoyable to use. Because the pre-amp has home theatre by-pass, i have plugged my AV receiver into it which means I no longer have to get up out of my seat to hold the power amp on/off button on the pearl lite for 3 seconds when I want to change from TV to music. Now I can leave the pearl lite in power amp mode and switch inputs by remote on the CDQ. That may not be of interest to you unless you are using it or planning to use it in an AV setup, but what I can say is the DAC and pre-amp are superb and for a little more £ than a mid priced DAC, it provides a lot of flexibility for a future upgrades. But you could always add a power amp to your pearl lite of course if you feel you ever want more power. It sounds like bass is your priority!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi, thanks for your views here. I will go on line and look up the various acronyms so I can fully understand your advice! Understanding the tech is really part of the pleasure isn't it? . I'll check out the teac, thanks for the rec. totally understand your comments about the quality of the original recording being key. To date, I have found the audiophile cd's I have heard are nicely recorded but not to my taste. I'll check steve Hoffman. Thanks again, Let me know of your ever thinking of selling any of your kit!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi cannibal, thanks for your detailed reply, I'll look at your recommendations over the weekend and respond then. Much appreciated. Alex.

 

[LordHill]

Hi Cannibal, I searched for REL B2 on ebay but nothing found but dont worry as I'm going to take some time looking aorund. That said, I did see a Miller and Kreisel V-1250THX for £300 which has a decent spec. Thanks for the rec on the audiolab and the heads up on how the Marantz switches to power amp. I think at my price point im going to go down the sub route for now and updgrade the DAC and source later. Good luck with your power amp/mono upgrades. The combination of the two responses here has really helped me decide which direction to go.

 

[LordHill]

I recently bought an open box Tannoy TS2.12 Sub on eBay at £350 (RRP 550-650 ish) so I thought I would update this thread for reference.This is the Sub which Tannoy suggest you match to the 6.2/6.4 Prescision's as part of a 5.1 home av system (and which cannibal had suggested) which I am using as a 2.1 hi fi. It took quite a bit of trial error to get the sound right ending up with the volume fairly low (around 20%), the crossover at around 90 with phase at 0. I've got the sub placed just off centre, between the speakers which are about 9 ft apart. Most of the time the results are very satisfying and as good as the 6.4's are, they do benefit greatly from the addition of a sub. Obviously with the volume level set quite low on the sub you don't get the benefits of the fuller sound at lower listening volumes and I also perceive that the bass lines can be just a fraction slower than they should be. Overall, I would say the additional enjoyment from listening to music with the sub easily justifies the investment. I would also have really liked a remote control for the sub.

Thanks again for all the advice,

BTW I've just been listening to an album called Chamber Music by Ballake Sissoko which has a great sound stage!

 

[James7]

Hi Alex

i am a touch confused by your post and signature. Do you have a Marantz SA KI Pearl a Lite, ie an SACD player, or a PM KI Pearl Lite, ie an amplifier? If the former what amp do you have? If the latter, do you also have a CD/ SACD player or just the Sonos?

If you use Sonos connected directly to a Marantz amp then I think an outboard DAC worth investigating at least. Something like Audiolab's M DAC might be just the ticket, in which case you could try out feeding its variable output to the Power Amp Direct input versus its fixed output to a regular line input and see which works best.

 

[LordHill]

Hi James, whoops! I had the wrong Marantz code in my signature thanks for spotting it so I could correct. I have the amp, not the CD.

Your thoughts on a seperate DAC are welcomed. I'll have a look and check back in later.

 

[LordHill]

Hi James. The M-DAC looks very interesting, thanks for the rec. I've just spoken to Seveoaks and they are lending me an M-DAC and an Arcam irDAC to try out next week...update to follow.

 

[James7]

Hi James. The M-DAC looks very interesting, thanks for the rec. I've just spoken to Seveoaks and they are lending me an M-DAC and an Arcam irDAC to try out next week...update to follow.

good luck with those. My gut feeling is that the M DAC will be a better match for your amp and speakers though by all reports the Arcam is a really fine product.

 

[cannibal_ox77]

I found audiolab & marantz combination works for me. Please post your findings, it'll be interesting to find out what you make of the two DACs after recent DAC quality debates on here

 

[LordHill]

By way of an update, i have copied below an email I sent earlier to Sevenoaks and who have been very helpful so far!

I tried both DACs over the course of last week and really liked them both. I have to say that I could not choose between them on sound. They were both a welcomed improvement on the Sonos (more details below) but I could not say if one was better/more detailed etc than the other. However, as you will see from the email below, I thought I would get better value from the airDAC (i was led to believe it would deliver the same sound quality as the irDAC), so I bought one of those......

"Hi James

I’ve had a quite a few issues with the airDAC so I thought I would put them down in an email and see what you advise.

When you kindly lent me the irDAC and Audiolab M-Dac I hooked them up simultaneously to the Sonos outputs (via the optical and coax outputs) and also ran the Sonos (via RCA) into the amp as well. I compared the three streams of music side by side (switching inputs on the amp and also switching the optical/coax (I couldn’t tell any difference between these two options)) and there was a noticeable improvement from both the Audiolab and the irDAC in terms of the realism of the sound (in particular vocals and strings) and the sound stage improved as well. With nothing to choose between the two DAC’s, the irDAC was my preferred option based on price. I also expected the airDAC would provide the same sound quality results plus the ability to stream Spotify and play files of 24/96 from NAS drive.

When I hooked up the airDAC to act as an external DAC for the Sonos (via optical) playing FLAC files off the NAS drive, there was no noticeable change in the sound quality/sound stage as there had been with the irDAC. I kept switching amp inputs between the Sonos and airDAC streams with varying music but could only find such tiny changes in the sound that I wondered if it was just my desperation to hear a difference. I understand that the airDac is new and may need some running in but, out of the box, it is very disappointing.

I then hard wired the airDAC up to the router (via the home electrical network) and uploaded the Songbook app from Arcam onto my iPhone and iPad to play some tracks of the NAS. The app performed really badly. It took up to a minute to find and link up with the airDAC (I had been through the set up carefully) and, when it did link up, the app would struggle to play a single track and then repeatedly crash and close, or freeze. I tried resetting everything and starting from scratch but it would not work. You may wonder if the wi-fi signal had something to do with this but when switching back, the Sonos app worked perfectly and the Sonos Connect was located next to the airDAC.

Then I tried to use Apple airplay to stream music from my iphone and ipad and failed on both counts. The airplay icon would not appear on either device (OS updated) and I suspect your suggestion that my router was to blame, is probably the reason but given the failings above I’m not ready to start replacing that.

I’m really disappointed that the airDAC did not operate as I had hoped and, as it really should be the ideal piece of kit for me, I am open to all suggestions as to how the issues above might be fixed. However, even if the Songbook & Airplay issues could be resolved, I fear that I will still want to return the airDAC to you because I can’t hear anything like the same improvement in the sound quality that I heard from the irDAC.

Thank you again for the loan of the Pioneer N-50 which is horrible to operate/navigate so I’m left wondering which way to go now?

The Sonos system I have works well but only delivers 16/44.1 and I don’t need multi-room. The DAC in the Sonos is OK but I would like to upgrade and I have never really liked the way the Sonos app integrates with Spotify, so what I am looking for is a streaming system and DAC which will allow me to do the following:

· Stream Spotify music directly from the Spotify GUI on my ipad/iphone.

· Play FLAC files at 24/192 (or minimum 24/96) from my NAS drive.

· Upgrade the Sonos DAC.

Would an rBlink with the irDAC be a fix for this? or do I need to spend some more and look at Naim or other brands?"

Well, thats the email. Any further thoughts from the forum are most welcomed.

Alex

ps. There were no customer reviews on line of the airDAC which makes me wonder if I am the only sucker who has bought one!

 

[Longjohn]

Dear Lord,

What about the older Arcam rDAC? I've had one for more than two years and it's served me very well. I frequently use it on wireless (for which it uses the Kleer system), and it works brilliantly.

Just a thought,

Best regards,

John

 

[unsleepable]

Apparently the DAC implementation in the airDac is similar to that in the older rDac. I would try to work the airPlay issues out, because the added functionality looks very good and seems to be just what is needed in this case.

 

[LordHill]

Thanks for the further suggestions.

I would be more inclined to go with an irDAC/Sonos combo rather than rDAC/Kleer, although I note it works very well for you.

It’s interesting to note that the DAC in the airDAC is closer to the rDAC and whilst I would like to get the airDAC to work, unless it’s a significant sound quality upgrade from the Sonos, then it’s not worth parting with the cash.

The Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6 is also a consideration, but not sure if the Bluetooth streaming will be lower sound quality than the Sonos and also if the sound improvement would compare with irDAC with a 24/96 FLAC file. I'm going to try and borrow one and see however at £700 I might be more tempted to wait for a second hand Naim or Linn on ebay.

PS I’ve got some Dynaudio Audience 52's which I might part with to help make up the extra cash needed!

 

[unsleepable]

Arcam also sells a DAC specific for the Sonos, which according to their web page is based on the rLink. I am not sure, but I think that these DACs are all probably similar with just different functionality—connectivity and such. But according to Arcam, yes, they are supposed to be an update over the DAC in the Sonos.

The problem with the Sonos is that I think it will not let you play the 192KHz/24-bit files that you have in your NAS—it's one of the requirements you stated above. According to specs, the airPlay would. Also because of this, I am not sure how Bluetooth would fit here.