Learning to listen...

[acalex]

'Going off on a bit of a tangent' warning...

...there are times when I listen passively and others when I listen actively. (No, not with AVIs

)

I am not just talking about hifi. Example: it's early morning, the windows are open and there is birdsong. I'll always hear it (passive) but sometimes i'll stop what i'm doing and listen to it (active).

Once-upon- a-time (when vehicles were cruder and noisier and more distinct) some small boys would learn the engine sounds of cars and lorries. It can still happen today when a Morris Minor or VW Beetle (original) or MGB is coming up the road behind me. Unmistakeable.

It's probably the same for a trained musician who will detect a whole layer of nuance and audible cues that the average listener (even with good ears and an above average system) fails to hear. The musician might be able to tell the difference between brands of guitar/violin/drums and other more subtle things like the individual tuning quirks or preferences of a particular musician. (Like whether or not a plectrum is used.) Not being a trained musician myself, I am never going to know these things unless someone points them out.

It might explain why the most accomplished musician I ever knew personally (a pianist) used to think Radio 3 on a Roberts radio was the epitome of listening quality and that my hifi was unecessarily expensive and indulgent. (Although she loved the pitch control on my Dual CS-505 turntable and would have bought one if it had had a little built-in speaker!)

Watching live performances helps to an extent (although aspiring to recreate the sound - exactly - in the home will cost tens of thousands of pounds and result in legal action from neighbours and still fall short of the real thing!)

With classical music I actually prefer to be able to watch the orchestra/choir at the same time and wish all classical was available on DVD. During the Proms season I listen to (watch) more classical music than at any other time of year. It comes back to that active/passive thing. Watching and listening I am actively engaged in the process whereas often - when just listening - it becomes 'background'.

Although, oddly, I concentrate on classical music better when reading and concentrate better on a book when listening to the music. I don't know whats going on there. (My wife prefers complete silence when reading a book.)

Rambling now. I'll stop.

You have got a point here! I definitely agree with you on active/passive listening. I am not an expert listener at all, just a normal person enjoying good sound quality. Being able to appreciate an acoustic guitar played nicely and distinguishing every single note...

What I am usually doing is passive listening...because my active listening is not trained! So for me is basically the same...even if I concentrate when listening I can identify the different musical instruments, but can't appreciate fully the dynamics, the soundstage, the richness of details because I am simply not able to spot them...yet! Of course if somebody points those at me I can spot the difference...but it doesn't come naturally!

Hope you got my point!

OT: Lee, would like to have some more info about Sonos, can I leave you my email address?!? Is it allowed? /End of OT

Anyway, thanks to everybody for sharing your points of view on the subject!!!

 

[Anonymous]

With classical music I actually prefer to be able to watch the orchestra/choir at the same time and wish all classical was available on DVD.

Interesting point Chebby. I have a number of classical DVD's also and whilst maybe the sound quality is sacrificed a bit the overall experience is always better. Went to London a couple of years back and took my wife to her first ever live classical concert at the Albert Hall. Okay it was a somewhat brash Raymond Gubbay slap/bang/wallop affair (Carmina Burana, Saint Saens Organ Symphony etc) but despite the fact she thought classical music was for toffee noses and was boring she was completely mesmerised by the whole experience. Next day she went to Virgin in Oxford Street (it was still open then!) and bought the DVD of Carmina Burana.

We never listened to CD's much as we had a surround sound system, great for movies but simply awful for music. So earlier this year we ditched that system and invested in something a bit more audio friendly. The dammned thing has never been switched off since, and we havent watched Eastenders for months. Having some half decent kit makes a huge difference, it makes you want to listen and as soon as you start to hear things on a CD you've never heard before, because your old kit wasn't up to the job, it suddenly became a completely new and engaging experience.

Then we found out about Sonos and Spotify - haven't looked back since!

 

[visionary]

The Stevie Wonder track I mentioned before simply gets my foot tapping and my head bobbing. I would have to make an effort to listen to it rather than just hear it

and I went home last night to listen to it (via Sonos) and thought "that sounds awful". Tried it again from CD and I could see what you meant. Further investigation determined that the Sonos delivered version was 160Kbps. Re-ripping it tonight

 

[Lee H]

OT: Lee, would like to have some more info about Sonos, can I leave you my email address?!? Is it allowed? /End of OT

Hi - pretty sure that's against the house rules. You'll find quite a few members have Sonos as well and are more than happy to answer questions. Just post them in the relevant section of the forum. Sonos also have their own support forums too.

 

[acalex]

OT: Lee, would like to have some more info about Sonos, can I leave you my email address?!? Is it allowed? /End of OT

Hi - pretty sure that's against the house rules. You'll find quite a few members have Sonos as well and are more than happy to answer questions. Just post them in the relevant section of the forum. Sonos also have their own support forums too.

I was sure as well, thats why I asked ! Thanks for the advice, I will post on Sonos forum or here in the specific section!

I will try the Stevie Wonder track tonight...

 

[MajorFubar]

One thing I always listen for on that Stevie Wonder track on a new system is how clear the squeak from the drum-kit is. I can't make my mind up if it's a squeaky bass-drum pedal or a squeaky hi-hat pedal. Lee also mentioned the bass, which is a synthesized sound from a Moog. Good systems should allow you to follow every note of the bassline, including the melodic parts.

 

[Lee H]

One thing I always listen for on that Stevie Wonder track on a new system is how clear the squeak from the drum-kit is. I can't make my mind up if it's a squeaky bass-drum pedal or a squeaky hi-hat pedal. Lee also mentioned the bass, which is a synthesized sound from a Moog. Good systems should allow you to follow every note of the bassline, including the melodic parts.

9 seconds in? I've been trying to work out what that is for ages!

 

[MajorFubar]

Yeah, if you listen carefully it's there pretty much all the way through.

 

[acalex]

You really know this song guys!

It went straight into my hi-fi testing collection...great song. Another one I know very well and I enjoy a lot is the unplugged version of Layla from Eric Clapton...just love it.

 

[CnoEvil]

. Another one I know very well and I enjoy a lot is the unplugged version of Layla from Eric Clapton...just love it.

The whole "Unplugged" album by Eric Clapton is fantastic. Also "Stardust" by Willie Nelson is worth checking out.

 

[chebby]

This has just reminded me of the old documentary series from the 1990s on BBC called 'Classic Albums' and one of them was all about the making of Stevie Wonder's 'Songs in the Key of Life'...

Well worth watching the whole thing.

I wish they'd repeat the whole series. Some episodes are still available on DVD.

 

[acalex]

Absolutely not silly at all!

How about this, as a place to see a variety of views (though it takes a while to get there!), and very recent too:-

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/naim-rythm-and-pace

You will find some terms used in the magazine, and I'll look for a glossary to link here. 'Dynamics', for example, is sometimes used as a shorthand for 'dynamic range' which simply means the difference between the loudest and quietest bit (of a recording). To hear a big dynamic range listen to Verdi's Requiem or Ravel's Bolero in a live concert! But it can also mean something more like excitement, as in 'that was a very dynamic performance'.

All good fun!

Nopiano, any other links/terms?

For example, what does it mean a "tight bass" which I read everywhere...and wha't the contrary of a tight bass?

Thanks again!!!

 

[chebby]

For example, what does it mean a "tight bass" which I read everywhere...and wha't the contrary of a tight bass?

"Loose", "flabby", "boomy", "bloated"... etc.

Tight bass = well defined bass where the instruments creating the bass notes can be recognised, differentiated and followed easily.

Bass that isn't some overbearing, boomy, 'mush' that seems to come from everywhere at once and where you struggle to know what is actually creating it.

 

[CnoEvil]

For example, what does it mean a "tight bass" which I read everywhere...and wha't the contrary of a tight bass?

"Loose", "flabby", "boomy", "bloated"... etc.

Tight bass = well defined bass where the instruments creating the bass notes can be recognised, differentiated and followed easily.

Bass that isn't some overbearing, boomy, 'mush' that seems to come from everywhere at once and where you struggle to know what is actually creating it.

Can't add a great deal to this explanation. The other adjective that often goes with "tight", is "punchy". Where Chebby says "followed easily", this can only happen if the notes start and stop quickly ie. not merge into each other in a kind of generic, blended mess.

There is no doubt that different speakers (and speaker designs) do better than others, but once again, this is hugely effected by the quality of the amp. A decent amount of current is needed to give this "control", especially if the impedance of a speaker drops low (say below 4 Ohms).

 

[nopiano]

[Nopiano, any other links/terms?

For example, what does it mean a "tight bass" which I read everywhere...and wha't the contrary of a tight bass?

Thanks again!!!

I'm tempted to say remove the 'b' and you'll get the idea what tight bass is. But this is a family forum, so I won't!

As chebby and Cno have said really. It means crisp, punchy, and perhaps if you think of a really good rock drummer doing a solo spot. Not loose, wooly, slow or flabby. And flabby brings us back to, er,...well, never mind!

Maybe we need one term per day, and see if we can define them all?

Are there any others that are nagging at you, acalex?

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm tempted to say remove the 'b' and you'll get the idea what tight bass is. But this is a family forum, so I won't!

As chebby and Cno have said really. It means crisp, punchy, and perhaps if you think of a really good rock drummer doing a solo spot. Not loose, wooly, slow or flabby. And flabby brings us back to, er,...well, never mind!

Have to say NP, that's a lot of "hot air".....removing the "b" would give more "Counter Tenor", than Basso Profundo! :O :?

 

[acalex]

Well, thanks a lot to everybody for the explanation! Sometimes indeed happens that the basses look a little boomy (in a sense that I can feel a lot vibrations on my desk where I am sitting while listening)...so thats not good I guess...but it might also depends on the fact that my speakers are too close to the side wall...actually the left one is almost on the corner...

So being able to recognize any single bass note is a good thing...and this is symptom of some tight bass...

I am actually listening to the Dark Side of the Moon in 24/96....unbelievable...

Guys thanks a lot for all your help and support, I feel I am really learning something here...so to come back to the term sounddstage..when listening to music I should be able to recognize a sort of 3D environemnt where every instrument should be sitting in a specific spot...so for example drums should be palced at the center but sitting "behind" the voice...correct?

 

[nopiano]

..so to come back to the term sounddstage..when listening to music I should be able to recognize a sort of 3D environemnt where every instrument should be sitting in a specific spot...so for example drums should be palced at the center but sitting "behind" the voice...correct?

Yes, ideally, though bear in mind the contrast between (say) a live recording of a jazz group, when you can be pretty sure where each performer is located - with vocalist up front, usually - and an artificially created stage or acoustic, as with DSOTM. Still very impressive, but an artifice. Clever producers can place an instrument wherever they want, pretty much.

That's why I personally find human voice (including radio announcers), piano, violin, and similar, good to judge accuracy with. You soon hear a chestiness on vocals if the lower range is emphasised, or a 'cupped hands' effect if there is an unwanted colouration.

When you get a really good soundstage, it is like 3D, and that is what just two speakers can produce (just like you only need two eyes for 3D movies!)

 

[dannycanham]

It's the bass drum.

 

[dannycanham]

The quality of the speaker I admire most is its ability to convey the naturalness of instruments. Take the common speaker type; a cone oscillating backwards and forwards. It is unsurprisingly at its best when replicating sounds created by oscillating motion. The guitar string vibrating up and down, the piano hammering on a string, the drum thump etc. Anything twanged of thumped or forced.

However the speaker has to produce other sounds. There are more complex vibrations than up and down. The human chest does not oscillate up and down but does vibrate, the piano body does not pump up and down but does vibrate etc etc. Complex air movement, vibrating wood and vibrating metals.

The lower notes from an organ are very difficult for a cone speaker to reproduce. How does a relatively small cone pumping in and out emulate a giant object moving a steady stream of air through pipes?

The only way I can compare this property is with recordings of quite simple, sparse music with plenty of space, lingering sounds and little electronic amplification. Americana works quite well for me. After the guitar has been struck and the vibrations are left to linger which speaker sounds more natural? When an organ is left to blow does it sound grand and unforced? When the singer is barely projecting their voice at the end of a solemn sentence does it have emotional human qualities?

Having more dynamics, timing, detail, punch, positioning or depth won’t improve this factor in the way that having a good balance of all properties does. I for one would happily to forgo some of the former for more of the latter.

What I am probably trying to say is that although you should look for all the basic qualities don’t get too carried away looking for the speaker with “the most” of any of them. That speaker rarely has the best overall natural sound. As pointed out, it is often the speaker/amp combination too.

 

[acalex]

The quality of the speaker I admire most is its ability to convey the naturalness of instruments.

....

What I am probably trying to say is that although you should look for all the basic qualities don’t get too carried away looking for the speaker with “the most” of any of them. That speaker rarely has the best overall natural sound. As pointed out, it is often the speaker/amp combination too.

I agree totally on the first point!

On the second point...I am not trying to learn these things to go around comparing different systems...I am quite happy with my actual system so far and I am not planning to change any amp/speaker anytime soon (hopefully ). This was more for personal culture and for being able to read articles/posts and understand what's all about...

For example I keep reading about warm and full body sound...what's the meaning of that? I guess the contrary of a warm is a cold sound...

 

[Anonymous]

One of my fav albums to listen to is Fleetwood Mac, "The Dance", especially "Big Love" with that guitar...brings out the best in a system IMHO. Heard it at KJ West One some years back, now I know whey they had it playing on their in store demo system

Michael Jackson albums are the best produced albums I know, irrespective of what you think of his music, the quality of the production is just exceptional.

 

[acalex]

One of my fav albums to listen to is Fleetwood Mac, "The Dance", especially "Big Love" with that guitar...brings out the best in a system IMHO. Heard it at KJ West One some years back, now I know whey they had it playing on their in store demo system

Michael Jackson albums are the best produced albums I know, irrespective of what you think of his music, the quality of the production is just exceptional.

Thanks a lot for sharing your song!!!
Any advise on the meaning of full body and warm sound which I read everywhere?!?

Thanks again

 

[nopiano]

Any advise on the meaning of full body and warm sound which I read everywhere?!?

It is, as you perhaps could imagine, the opposite of thin and cold sound! Full bodied tends to mean weighty and rich-toned in the lower ranges, not just the deepest bass (imagine a heaviliy curtained room -v- an empty unfurnished one). Warm is similar, though might also mean rolled-off higher range, mellow. More cello than violin. Think cosy country club with log fires -v- modern glass and aluminium building with air con.

Any help?

PS. I probably exaggerated a bit to make the point. Often these things are quite subtle.

 

[MajorFubar]

Don't get too tied up in analyzing what you hear. Just enjoy the ride.