Learning to listen...

[acalex]

Hi guys,

I bought my first set around month ago almost...and I am realizing I still cannot hear all the differences you guys keep talking about. Let me rephrase, I keep reading the same way of comparing speakers...like dynamics, mid-range, soundtsage depth, timing, dynamic range and so on...is there any place on the web where I can start "learning" on how to listen? For me now a system might sound better than an other...but I wouldn't be able to tell you which one is better in terms of dynamics and so on...really would like to learn the teory also. Any advice is welcome!

Thanks and sorry if you feel I am posting silly questions!

 

[nopiano]

Absolutely not silly at all!

How about this, as a place to see a variety of views (though it takes a while to get there!), and very recent too:-

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/naim-rythm-and-pace

You will find some terms used in the magazine, and I'll look for a glossary to link here. 'Dynamics', for example, is sometimes used as a shorthand for 'dynamic range' which simply means the difference between the loudest and quietest bit (of a recording). To hear a big dynamic range listen to Verdi's Requiem or Ravel's Bolero in a live concert! But it can also mean something more like excitement, as in 'that was a very dynamic performance'.

All good fun!

 

[nopiano]

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/an-a-z-of-audio-and-some-video-terminology

I knew I'd seen it recently, from WHF's sister publication.

And for something not really like what I was looking for at all, but inspirational all the same:-

http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie_shows_how_to_listen.html

 

[acalex]

Wow, thanks a lot for all your help! Lot of stuff to read, I am starting from the first link you posted, very useful...lot of stuff in there! And thanks for explaining what dynamic range is...so speaker with a good dynamic range are those able to reproduce sounds which are quiet and sounds which are loud (the two extremes of the range...the wider this range the quieter and the louder will be the sounds these speakers will reproduce)...not sure I explained myself...but I think I got hit. I will keep reading! Thanks again!

 

[acalex]

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/an-a-z-of-audio-and-some-video-terminology

I knew I'd seen it recently, from WHF's sister publication.

And for something not really like what I was looking for at all, but inspirational all the same:-

http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie_shows_how_to_listen.html

This is absolutely fantastic...I just got the meaning of dynamics and midrange...which I understood it is quite important given the type of music I listen to like jazz, voice (like unplugged versions with just guitar and voice) etc...

You made me discover a new world...thanks a lot!

 

[CnoEvil]

This may well be a question that more than you would like an answer to...but don't want to be the first to put their hand up.

I certainly don't have the complete answer, but a few comments that might (or might not) help.
You can make "listening" over complicated, and the more you try to over analyse it, the more elusive it can appear to be.

A good midrange is so vital, as it contains the most significant part of the audible spectrum (300 - 5000 Hz). It is in this frequency range that most instruments lie, as well as the human voice...and any discrepancies/inaccuracies will be picked up by the ear.

A good way to see how well this is handled ,is to check the accuracy of piano, violin, and the human voice (male and female).

Good soundstaging (with depth and height) can be heard (if there) when listening to an orchestra - You should be able to hear the instruments in a large semi circle, with each section in it's correct place (side to side, and front to back):

Violins start on the front left and then as you move right (along the front), Violas, Cellos and Double Basses. Located behind the strings in the centre ,is the Woodwind (Flutes, Oboes, Clarinets and Bassoons). Back left is Percussion (Drums, Cymbals and Xylophone). Lastly, strung along the back and back right, is the Brass section (Trumpets, Horns, Trombones and Tubas).
If your speakers/system can portray this 3D image, it's doing well.

To hear good tempo and intonation is trickier. IMO. You need to hear a good reference point, ie. in the form of a properly set up, fairly highend system, that displays these attributes. Your dealer may well have something already set up, that he will let you play some of your own music on, so you can compare.

Hope this helps a little

Cno

 

[acalex]

Thanks, really really appreciate all your inputs! So we would need a pool of different songs to test and analyze every different aspect of the musci itself. Orchestra to evaluate soundstage depth and widht, voice and instruments to understand the midrange...etc!

I need to sit in front of my speakers and start analysing all these things together....would be nice to have a list of songs allowing me to evaluate every different aspect...but I know is not so black and white...

 

[Lee H]

would be nice to have a list of songs allowing me to evaluate every different aspect

Try and pick things you're already familiar with. I could tell you some tracks I use, but if you don't know them well you may not hear the differences from one set-up to another.

BTW, good on ya for asking the question. I was one of those that was too nervous to ask it in the past.

Despite what I've just said, I'll tell you one of my tracks! I always use Stevie Wonder - Superstition. A nice, clean start with some bass

 

[acalex]

Thanks a lot, it is very useful for me!!! What do you use this song for especially?

 

[Lee H]

Thanks a lot, it is very useful for me!!! What do you use this song for especially?

Many reasons really:

1) I love it! Listening to it is never a chore

2) Opening few bars. Are the drum beats tight (especially the bass drum)

3) Can I pick out the cymbals clearly and clearly

4) When the bass guitar kicks in, there's a few particuluarly low notes. Are they boomy and run in to each other or can I hear each one

5) I love his vocal on this. Is it clear, especially when the brass comes in

Hope this helps. Like I said before - find something you know well.

 

[acalex]

It does! Thanks a lot!
I will try to listen carefull to each of the songs I like the most...unbelievable how much more you can hear using a good system...

 

[Lee H]

It does! Thanks a lot!
I will try to listen carefull to each of the songs I like the most...unbelievable how much more you can hear using a good system...

It does! My system isn't what most on here would call "good" but it's better than I've owned before and compared to what most "men on the street" own, it is.

 

[acalex]

It does! Thanks a lot!
I will try to listen carefull to each of the songs I like the most...unbelievable how much more you can hear using a good system...

It does! My system isn't what most on here would call "good" but it's better than I've owned before and compared to what most "men on the street" own, it is.

Same for me! I went from listening through 2.1 Logitech loudspeakers connected to the pc to a separate hi-fi system...huge jump...worth every euro spent on it...I think I might need a better DAC in the near future cz my only source is pc and internet and Sonos (soon)

 

[Lee H]

I have Sonos, it's worth every penny (or cent!). I listen to so much more music now. Add my own collection to Spotify and I can listen to just about anything with a few presses.

Glad you're enjoying it all.

 

[acalex]

I have Sonos, it's worth every penny (or cent!). I listen to so much more music now. Add my own collection to Spotify and I can listen to just about anything with a few presses.

Glad you're enjoying it all.

Yes indeed...and I would like to set up a multizone also...so for me Sonos is the best possible solution! Will transfer all my music on a NAS and use the iphone to drive the whole system...and in January I will spend my bonus for a new DAC (maybe Naim) :cheers:

Great plan!!! :rockout:

 

[MajorFubar]

First artist I head to whose albums 'test' a multitude of qualities at once is Vangelis. China (1979), Soil Festivities (1984), Themes (1989), 1492 (1992) and Mythodea (2001) are staple favourites I head for when I've just bought something new or when I'm demo'ing something new. Pretty useless of course if you don't like his brand of sweeping synthesized opuses.

 

[CnoEvil]

First artist I head to whose albums 'test' a multitude of qualities at once is Vangelis. China (1979), Soil Festivities (1984), Themes (1989), 1492 (1992) and Mythodea (2001) are staple favourites I head for when I've just bought something new or when I'm demo'ing something new. Pretty useless of course if you don't like his brand of sweeping synthesized opuses.

Sticking with the Vangelis theme, I would point you to Jon and Vangelis "The friends of Mr Cairo"......it's a great listen.

Just remember, that it's not just the speakers that are responsible for a cohesive sound, but also the quality of source and amp are very big factors.

IMO The source plays a bigger role than is often realized. I think your idea of getting suggestions to test different aspects of a system, is a very good one. There are certain pieces of music that can be reduced to an incoherent mess by some systems.

 

[Mr Morph]

Just remember, that it's not just the speakers that are responsible for a cohesive sound, but also the quality of source and amp are very big factors. IMO The source plays a bigger role than is often realized. I think your idea of getting suggestions to test different aspects of a system, is a very good one. There are certain pieces of music that can be reduced to an incoherent mess by some systems.

Spot on Cno. I've heard many systems that can't even resolve the playful stereo effects on ELO's 'Out of the Blue' correctly. When it's done properly, it's a great listen!

 

[acalex]

First artist I head to whose albums 'test' a multitude of qualities at once is Vangelis. China (1979), Soil Festivities (1984), Themes (1989), 1492 (1992) and Mythodea (2001) are staple favourites I head for when I've just bought something new or when I'm demo'ing something new. Pretty useless of course if you don't like his brand of sweeping synthesized opuses.

Sticking with the Vangelis theme, I would point you to Jon and Vangelis "The friends of Mr Cairo"......it's a great listen. Just remember, that it's not just the speakers that are responsible for a cohesive sound, but also the quality of source and amp are very big factors. IMO The source plays a bigger role than is often realized. I think your idea of getting suggestions to test different aspects of a system, is a very good one. There are certain pieces of music that can be reduced to an incoherent mess by some systems.

Yes....the objective of this post is to understand whats the terminology is...and to look for suggestions to test a system...for example to evaluate the bass I would use this, for dynamics that, for soundstage that...etc...

Also would like to understand all different types of sound I read on magazines and on the forum...like warm, smooth...etc and being able to distinguish one from the other!

I know...have to learn a lot!!! :wall:

 

[MajorFubar]

Sticking with the Vangelis theme, I would point you to Jon and Vangelis "The friends of Mr Cairo"......it's a great listen.

Oh absolutely...and not just for the very famous, "I'll Find My Way Home" either It also appears to be the only album where you can find the full version of both the title track and "State of Independence". Vangelis collections that include these songs only ever seem to include edits.

 

[matthewpiano]

One thing I would say is that if you currently enjoy listening to the music you might want to think twice about getting over involved in listening to the system. In particular if you enjoy the music and you are aware that a different piece of kit sounds different or better (to you), you might want to think twice before getting any more embroiled than that. Sometimes it can be very hard to learn how to listen to the music instead of the system when you have spent too long focusing on the equipment. It's not the same thing and the music should always come first IMO.

 

[acalex]

One thing I would say is that if you currently enjoy listening to the music you might want to think twice about getting over involved in listening to the system. In particular if you enjoy the music and you are aware that a different piece of kit sounds different or better (to you), you might want to think twice before getting any more embroiled than that. Sometimes it can be very hard to learn how to listen to the music instead of the system when you have spent too long focusing on the equipment. It's not the same thing and the music should always come first IMO.

Indeed, the purpose of my post was learning how to listen to the music properly

 

[steve_1979]

One thing I would say is that if you currently enjoy listening to the music you might want to think twice about getting over involved in listening to the system. In particular if you enjoy the music and you are aware that a different piece of kit sounds different or better (to you), you might want to think twice before getting any more embroiled than that. Sometimes it can be very hard to learn how to listen to the music instead of the system when you have spent too long focusing on the equipment. It's not the same thing and the music should always come first IMO.

Well said matthew. That's a good point.

 

[chebby]

'Going off on a bit of a tangent' warning...

...there are times when I listen passively and others when I listen actively. (No, not with AVIs

)

I am not just talking about hifi. Example: it's early morning, the windows are open and there is birdsong. I'll always hear it (passive) but sometimes i'll stop what i'm doing and listen to it (active).

Once-upon- a-time (when vehicles were cruder and noisier and more distinct) some small boys would learn the engine sounds of cars and lorries. It can still happen today when a Morris Minor or VW Beetle (original) or MGB is coming up the road behind me. Unmistakeable.

It's probably the same for a trained musician who will detect a whole layer of nuance and audible cues that the average listener (even with good ears and an above average system) fails to hear. The musician might be able to tell the difference between brands of guitar/violin/drums and other more subtle things like the individual tuning quirks or preferences of a particular musician. (Like whether or not a plectrum is used.) Not being a trained musician myself, I am never going to know these things unless someone points them out.

It might explain why the most accomplished musician I ever knew personally (a pianist) used to think Radio 3 on a Roberts radio was the epitome of listening quality and that my hifi was unecessarily expensive and indulgent. (Although she loved the pitch control on my Dual CS-505 turntable and would have bought one if it had had a little built-in speaker!)

Watching live performances helps to an extent (although aspiring to recreate the sound - exactly - in the home will cost tens of thousands of pounds and result in legal action from neighbours and still fall short of the real thing!)

With classical music I actually prefer to be able to watch the orchestra/choir at the same time and wish all classical was available on DVD. During the Proms season I listen to (watch) more classical music than at any other time of year. It comes back to that active/passive thing. Watching and listening I am actively engaged in the process whereas often - when just listening - it becomes 'background'.

Although, oddly, I concentrate on classical music better when reading and concentrate better on a book when listening to the music. I don't know whats going on there. (My wife prefers complete silence when reading a book.)

Rambling now. I'll stop.

 

[Lee H]

Good points Chebby. As a kid, I was into my planes. I can still hear the growl of a merlin engine long before I see the aircraft! As I get better at playing guitar, I can listen to a piece in a different way if I'm trying to work out what's going on with one instrument rather than losing myself in the whole.

The Stevie Wonder track I mentioned before simply gets my foot tapping and my head bobbing. I would have to make an effort to listen to it rather than just hear it