KEF R300 Arrived

[yani]

Picked up my R300's on Saturday morning. Have been listening all weekend. I had a pile of cd's already looked out which I found a slight problem with the Celestions. The high frequencies could at times be a touch bright through the Celestions tweeters. I find mainly that its relatively modern bands which are the worst culprits, Maroon 5, Snow Patrol, Kings of Leon.

I started my listening with these types of recordings and admit I was a tad dissapointed. The KEF's still sounded quite bright. Far more so than the Focla 906 I had tried previously. They seemed to be not much better than the Celestions. The KEF's though did seem to be more cohesive and purer sounding (less grain). After a couple of hours of this I remembered that someone had mentioned on the forum about them sounding better with very little toe in. This I then tried and found it did not fully solve the problem but it did lessen it. I concentrated all of Saturday on discs which had a tendency towards brightness. At the end of Saturday night I felt they were no better than what I had.

Last night I decided to move on to what I class as good recordings , Ed Sheeran, Susan Vega, Eric Bibb and a lot of jazz albums. WOW what a difference. Its was incredible to hear such purity in the vocals. Discs I knew so well on my last speakers sounded utterly wonderful now. The vocals are stunning and the soundstage gorgeous. The bass being full but tight also gave me a room filling experience. I started to appreciate comments made about these speakers. The clarity in particular is a stand out feature.

I think this is a double edge sword though as I now realise they are very revealing paired with the Rega Elex R. Great recordings will sound wonderful while poor ones will be shown up for what they are. I have until Saturday to decide so will wait until then to make my final decision. I admit I am quietly impressed so far though.

 

[Frank Harvey]

What was the rest of your system again Yani?

Revealing speakers/systems will only relay to you what they are fed. Some speakers sugar coat bad signals, some don't.

 

[yani]

Hi David.

I have a Rega Saturn Cd (not 'r' version) and the latest Elex amp. Chord poer cables with Chord sig interconnect. Speaker cable is Van Den Hul cs122 for now. Might pick up Chord Epic in future.

Stands are Atacam R724 which are heavy duty and sand filled.

 

[bigfish786]

To get used to new kit, it needs time and patience. A bit of experimenting, and a bit of luck too.

 

[Gazzip]

I loved the R300's and still maintain that they are the best bang-for-buck loudspeakers I have ever owned.

You say you increased the toe-in to try and decrease the brightness? High frequencies are far more directional than low frequency so you may have made matters worse by pointing the drivers straight at you. Have you tried them with little or no toe-in, firing straight ahead? Obviously this will not alter the overall tone of the speakers but it may take some of the zingyness out of the sound.

 

[SteveR750]

To get used to new kit, it needs time and patience. A bit of experimenting, and a bit of luck too.

This is very true. In my experience, revealing speakers don't suddenly make parts of your music collection sound worse.

 

[yani]

I loved the R300's and still maintain that they are the best bang-for-buck loudspeakers I have ever owned.

You say you increased the toe-in to try and decrease the brightness? High frequencies are far more directional than low frequency so you may have made matters worse by pointing the drivers straight at you. Have you tried them with little or no toe-in, firing straight ahead? Obviously this will not alter the overall tone of the speakers but it may take some of the zingyness out of the sound.

If you read my post I actually said the opposite. I reduced the toe-in as I was aware this helped lessen the effects of the high frequencies. The speakers are virtually pointing straight at present and sit about 350mm from the back wall to the rear of the speaker.

I tried the original Coldplay CD last night (Parachutes). First track was fine but the second was bright and sort of thrashy sounding. I am finding they seem to offer fantastic sound with acoustics and vocals but as soon as I switch to albums such as above where it gets really busy they grait on the ears. The sound is 'hard' if you know what I mean, little warmth. Really frustrating at present. Could the Van Den Hul cable having silver throughout be at fault ?

 

[drummerman]

I doubt it.

Although I certainly have found cables to make a very subtle difference what you describe will not be solved that way imho.

Its probably simply a speaker choice which doesn't agree with you, it happens.

Can you return/change?

 

[yani]

Yes I only have them on home demo at present. Due for return on Saturday so no real problems that way. I just wished they sounded easier on the ears with the material I mentioned. On the well mastered CD's they really did shine. On listening to these CD's the music got a real lift from what I had before. The problem CD's I mention were generally listenable before with the Celestions but now really are just a bit too zingy for my tastes.

 

[Gazzip]

Hi Yani,

Sorry, I interpreted your post the other way around but it sounds as if you have tried toe in and out to no avail so no bother.

I owned each of the R300's, R500's and R700's during 2011/2012. Your comments about splashyness and harshness when things get a little more complex do ring true so I dug out a post from January 2011 for you. I found the metal drive units could sound kind of metalic ocassionally, especially with male vocal. I briefly compared and contrasted all three models in post #9 on this thread:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/kef-r500-vs-r700

It was ultimately that zingy metalic edge that led me to move on from the Kef R's and back towards PMC that I had left behind some time before, and I think it is inherent throughout that particular range. Not to take anything away from the R300's because their bang for buck is really quite remarkable at that price point IMHO.

 

[Jota180]

What kind of volume produces this 'bright, grating' noise effect? Are we talking about 10 o'clock and beyond on the volume dial or does it happen no matter how quietly you play music?

 

[yani]

Hi Gazzip

No problem. You are summing up what I sort of am hearing, a zingy metalic edge, but strangely only on CD's such as Coldplay, Snow Patrol and their likes. Switching to easier jazz recordings and this totally disappears leaving a wonderful full sound with excellent vocals. I would even say they sound 'harsh' with the poorer recordings. Not very forgiving if you know what I mean.

 

[yani]

What kind of volume produces this 'bright, grating' noise effect? Are we talking about 10 o'clock and beyond on the volume dial or does it happen no matter how quietly you play music?

The volume is where I really notice the problem. When you play bands such as these I find I like to turn things up a little. I enjoy a room filling sound and being in a detached I am fortunate I can do this. With regards where on the dial I would say 9 onwards becomes tough on the ears. So not really full out if that is what you are getting at.

The volume knob is the tell tale sign things are not right in my opinion. When you feel a strong urge to reduce you know you have a problem.

 

[Jota180]

Just out of interest I've just stuck that Coldplay track on, I don't have the KEF R series but do have the LS50. It's not a great recording, it sounds 'thin and unsubstantial', it was their first CD so the record company probably didn't stick much money into it, but it's not coming across as bright or harsh sounding on my speakers. I haven't heard the R300 or any of the R series so maybe it's not really relevant.

 

[Jota180]

What kind of volume produces this 'bright, grating' noise effect? Are we talking about 10 o'clock and beyond on the volume dial or does it happen no matter how quietly you play music?

The volume is where I really notice the problem. When you play bands such as these I find I like to turn things up a little. I enjoy a room filling sound and being in a detached I am fortunate I can do this. With regards where on the dial I would say 9 onwards becomes tough on the ears. So not really full out if that is what you are getting at.

The volume knob is the tell tale sign things are not right in my opinion. When you feel a strong urge to reduce you know you have a problem.

Well funny you should say that because we had a really good video posted here from Alan Shaw, designer of Harbeth speakers, talking about clipping on amplifiers. How it makes the sound bright and hard. He showed that with a lot of amplifiers and using a turntable, you could turn the volume right round to the 3 o'clock spot without the sound getting bright and hard but with a Cd player, anything past 9/10 o'clock and the hardness appeared.

With an oscillascope he showed that with a CD player the amp was going into clipping between 9/10 o'clock which made it sound hard on some 'hot' recordings. The issue was the sensitivity of the line input of the amplifier, it couldn't cope with the red book CD standard of 2mV. So when a 'hot' CD was played, the pre amp part of the amplifier was over amplifying the signal and sending the amp into clipping.

This was sorted with a pair of inexpensive attenuators.

Now this may or may not be your issue but it's interesting nonetheless!

Here's the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSg32yJYY7E

 

[yani]

Just out of interest I've just stuck that Coldplay track on, I don't have the KEF R series but do have the LS50. It's not a great recording, it sounds 'thin and unsubstantial', it was their first CD so the record company probably didn't stick much money into it, but it's not coming across as bright or harsh sounding on my speakers. I haven't heard the R300 or any of the R series so maybe it's not really relevant.

I realise that certain recordings no matter what system you play them on sound harsh. If they are poorly put together then there is nothing you can do about it. Its possible that the system is now too revealing and that what was playable before has now verged into being overly bright. The trade off being that the well mastered material sounds so much better.

Out on interest what amp are you using ?

 

[yani]

What kind of volume produces this 'bright, grating' noise effect? Are we talking about 10 o'clock and beyond on the volume dial or does it happen no matter how quietly you play music?

The volume is where I really notice the problem. When you play bands such as these I find I like to turn things up a little. I enjoy a room filling sound and being in a detached I am fortunate I can do this. With regards where on the dial I would say 9 onwards becomes tough on the ears. So not really full out if that is what you are getting at.

The volume knob is the tell tale sign things are not right in my opinion. When you feel a strong urge to reduce you know you have a problem.

Well funny you should say that because we had a really good video posted here from Alan Shaw, designer of Harbeth speakers, talking about clipping on amplifiers. How it makes the sound bright and hard. He showed that with a lot of amplifiers and using a turntable, you could turn the volume right round to the 3 o'clock spot without the sound getting bright and hard but with a Cd player, anything past 9/10 o'clock and the hardness appeared.

With an oscillascope he showed that with a CD player the amp was going into clipping between 9/10 o'clock which made it sound hard on some 'hot' recordings. The issue was the sensitivity of the line input of the amplifier, it couldn't cope with the red book CD standard of 2mV. So when a 'hot' CD was played, the pre amp part of the amplifier was over amplifying the signal and sending the amp into clipping.

This was sorted with a pair of inexpensive attenuators.

Now this may or may not be your issue but it's interesting nonetheless!

Here's the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSg32yJYY7E

I have Rothwell attenuators I bought a while back. Might just be worth a try. I dont use these with the Rega at the moment. Thanks for the tip. I will give that a go tonight.

 

[Jota180]

What kind of volume produces this 'bright, grating' noise effect? Are we talking about 10 o'clock and beyond on the volume dial or does it happen no matter how quietly you play music?

The volume is where I really notice the problem. When you play bands such as these I find I like to turn things up a little. I enjoy a room filling sound and being in a detached I am fortunate I can do this. With regards where on the dial I would say 9 onwards becomes tough on the ears. So not really full out if that is what you are getting at.

The volume knob is the tell tale sign things are not right in my opinion. When you feel a strong urge to reduce you know you have a problem.

Well funny you should say that because we had a really good video posted here from Alan Shaw, designer of Harbeth speakers, talking about clipping on amplifiers. How it makes the sound bright and hard. He showed that with a lot of amplifiers and using a turntable, you could turn the volume right round to the 3 o'clock spot without the sound getting bright and hard but with a Cd player, anything past 9/10 o'clock and the hardness appeared.

With an oscillascope he showed that with a CD player the amp was going into clipping between 9/10 o'clock which made it sound hard on some 'hot' recordings. The issue was the sensitivity of the line input of the amplifier, it couldn't cope with the red book CD standard of 2mV. So when a 'hot' CD was played, the pre amp part of the amplifier was over amplifying the signal and sending the amp into clipping.

This was sorted with a pair of inexpensive attenuators.

Now this may or may not be your issue but it's interesting nonetheless!

Here's the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSg32yJYY7E

I have Rothwell attenuators I bought a while back. Might just be worth a try. I dont use these with the Rega at the moment. Thanks for the tip. I will give that a go tonight.

Worth a try just to see what happens. They do attentuators in different levels and maybe one of the other guys could work out what would be best for an amp with the input sensitivity of yours.

 

[Jota180]

Just out of interest I've just stuck that Coldplay track on, I don't have the KEF R series but do have the LS50. It's not a great recording, it sounds 'thin and unsubstantial', it was their first CD so the record company probably didn't stick much money into it, but it's not coming across as bright or harsh sounding on my speakers. I haven't heard the R300 or any of the R series so maybe it's not really relevant.

I realise that certain recordings no matter what system you play them on sound harsh. If they are poorly put together then there is nothing you can do about it. Its possible that the system is now too revealing and that what was playable before has now verged into being overly bright. The trade off being that the well mastered material sounds so much better.

Out on interest what amp are you using ?

It's a Naim UnitiQute 2 into a NAP 100. Also, I'm streaming the the music and not using a CD player. I have no idea what the DAC output and pre amp input levels on the UQ2 are.

 

[yani]

I have been thinking back to when I got the attenuators. I had an Audiolab LX intergrated bi-amping with an 8000p power. I found on using the attenuators it gave me more control of the volume but robbed the sound of some dynamics. I ended up removing them.

Strangely enough I had a Brio R out to try and also used them on this. There seemed far less of an effect on sound quality using them with this amp. What I am really getting at is hopefully the Elex will be the same. I can only try and see what happens.

Another night locked in the man cave !!

 

[Covenanter]

I certainly don't get a "metallic edge" on any vocals. I don't listen to the same type of music as you but certainly with opera the R700s are about the best speakers I have ever heard.

Chris

 

[Gazzip]

I certainly don't get a "metallic edge" on any vocals. I don't listen to the same type of music as you but certainly with opera the R700s are about the best speakers I have ever heard.

Chris

Hi Chris, I agree with you that they are very good speakers. However in my system the metalic edge was definitely there but it was limited to certain types of music. I think it was a reaction to certain, quite specific frequencies of siblence. A vocalist (usually male) getting right up close and personal with the microphone would bring it out.

Not knocking the speakers generally as they are wonderful!

 

[yani]

I agree there is a lot to like about these speakers. I really would love to resolve the issue I have with certain types of CD's or music. They are soooo good in other ways. Goose bump good !!

 

[yani]

Just thought I would post an update on the Kef R300's I had for home trial.

My time with these was up on Saturday so I had to come to some decision on what to do. I was utterly torn in two with these. I still felt on certain recordings they could sound bright but with well mastered material they were truly superb. They also had the scale I desired unlike the Focal 906 I had tried previously.

I came to the decision that if were not 100% happy I will just have to return them. I brought the box back in from the garage and left it downstairs. I would bring the speakers down individully due to weight. On returning to unplug them upstairs I decided to have one more listen. This led to another half hour changing tracks/ discs etc. Ahhhhh. Now I was doubting myself again. Was I making an error.

My final decision was to return them which I did on the Staurday morning. I would set my old speakers up on my return from the shop and listen over the weekend to see if felt I was missing anything.

Well on setting up the Celestion A1's (now 15 years old) I was impressed with the scale and warmth they had. Yes they can be a little strident with poor recordings but just like the KEF's they sang with the good stuff. I have therefore concluded to keep what I have for the time being.

But..............should my speakers ever fail (now difficult to get parts for) I would certainly be very, very tempted with the R300's. They are a very open, revealing speaker with beautiful clear pure vocals (Celelestions being slighty grainy by comparison). It is more a failing of certain recordings than the speakers themselves which stops me purchasing. This may change in the future though !!!!!!!!