KEF - R Series Range vs Reference Range

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Anonymous

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
plastic penguin said:
Just a very short REVIEW would suffice...

Reference is better than R series.

:grin:
Atc sirens sounding , wearing my tin hat, sandbags being filled. :O :shifty:

Oh ! and the church bell is ringing invasion warning. :bounce:
 

Frank Harvey

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plastic penguin said:
Bits of crooked MDF and broken tweeters are strewn across the Midlands. Trying to scrape mud off the bass cones is a nightmare.

Not a problem with the R series and the Blade - nice, smooth, almost flat aluminium cones :)

It'd be hell trying to clear that woven Kevlar!
 
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
plastic penguin said:
Bits of crooked MDF and broken tweeters are strewn across the Midlands. Trying to scrape mud off the bass cones is a nightmare.

Not a problem with the R series and the Blade - nice, smooth, almost flat aluminium cones :)

It'd be hell trying to clear that woven Kevlar!

All over Surrey tonight they'll be Kevlar candle lit vigil, in tribute to the fallen cones.:grin:
 

Frank Harvey

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As I've said - basically, the Reference range is better overall. But that's the easy, simplistic answer. If I was faced with the choice of the R900's and the 203/2's, I'd be taking the 203's. But that's not to say that R900 isn't a very capable loudspeaker (I've yet to hear a pair in a familiar environment) - the R500's are extremely capable and reach deeper than some competition up to and over £1k more, so all's looking good for the R500's biggest brother.

This comparison might be interesting, and might shed some light on things, but also confuse in the same way! The R series has been demonstrated directly against the company's Blade loudspeaker at Manchester, and more than likely at Bristol next month too. Whilst the R300 and R700 that have been heard to sound tonally and characteristically similar, obviously there are differences, which a quick A/B demo isn't going to uncover.

While the R series sound so similar to the Blade, if you compare a Reference model to the Blade, there's a difference so big you could fit a galaxy in there (not the chocolate bar). It's night and day, the Blades being so obviously better you'd need to be deaf not to hear it. So how does the R series sound so much like the Blade but not as good as Reference?

I believe the UniQ developed for the Blade is the most accurate and open one yet, almost like this is what the UniQ technology has been evolving towards all these years. As mentioned above, it's demonstrably better than the Reference UniQ, which almost sounds a little ragged in comparison. I know that's not a nice thing to say, but we are comparing £4k/£6k/£10k speakers against a £20k pair. Even though the UniQ driver of the R series is basically the same as the Blades, it has been simplified in subtle ways, and I believe one of the three materials used has been removed. Obviously there's a difference in the size and power of the magnet too, which will affect performance. The R series doesn't have a fully dedicated section within it's cabinet for the UniQ driver - the Reference range has a cabinet module all of it's own for the UniQ, allowing midrange and treble to be completely unharmed by any other internal forces or sound waves.

Probably the biggest area of difference is the cabinet shape and volume, and the lack of force cancelling drivers. These all play a major role, and I think this is where the majority of the difference lies. Although KEF have done a great job in cutting down on cabinet vibrations and internal standing waves for the R series, no amount of work can match the curved and far more solidly built cabinet of the Reference range, and obviously this will be an area where the R's lack against the Blade too - the Blade isn't shaped the way it is to please the missus (apologies of anyone reads too much into that) - every sweeping curve is there for a reason, and all play their part in the resulting lack of colouration and smooth frequency response. One of the other major areas will be the crossover. While everything will be done to make them as transparent as possible, ultimate quality will be governed by budget.

One aspect that needs to be taken into consideration is the accompanying amplification. While both ranges are very efficient, the R series is a much easier load on an amplifier than the Reference range. We've run the R500's with a Leema Elements amplifier, which ran them very well, and the same will probably go for the R900 too. But use that amplifier for the 203/2's, and it will be struggling, as would most amps in it's price range. The 203/2's require far more control and current in order to give what they're capable of, and I think many people have never really heard the Reference range in that sort of situation.

While the new UniQ is undoubtedly better than the Reference UniQ, the Reference UniQ has been refined over many decades, and has been designed to work with the rest of the loudspeaker. While the Blade has affected my overall view of one of my previous favourite loudspeakers, the 205/2, and shifted it to second place, it's still a pretty special loudspeaker, and driven properly, can be everything that some people have ever wanted.

It's funny, but being able to appreciate what goes into the R series makes you realise just how much of a bargain the 203/2's are...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
As I've said - basically, the Reference range is better overall. But that's the easy, simplistic answer. If I was faced with the choice of the R900's and the 203/2's, I'd be taking the 203's. But that's not to say that R900 isn't a very capable loudspeaker (I've yet to hear a pair in a familiar environment) - the R500's are extremely capable and reach deeper than some competition up to and over £1k more, so all's looking good for the R500's biggest brother.

This comparison might be interesting, and might shed some light on things, but also confuse in the same way! The R series has been demonstrated directly against the company's Blade loudspeaker at Manchester, and more than likely at Bristol next month too. Whilst the R300 and R700 that have been heard to sound tonally and characteristically similar, obviously there are differences, which a quick A/B demo isn't going to uncover.

While the R series sound so similar to the Blade, if you compare a Reference model to the Blade, there's a difference so big you could fit a galaxy in there (not the chocolate bar). It's night and day, the Blades being so obviously better you'd need to be deaf not to hear it. So how does the R series sound so much like the Blade but not as good as Reference?

I believe the UniQ developed for the Blade is the most accurate and open one yet, almost like this is what the UniQ technology has been evolving towards all these years. As mentioned above, it's demonstrably better than the Reference UniQ, which almost sounds a little ragged in comparison. I know that's not a nice thing to say, but we are comparing £4k/£6k/£10k speakers against a £20k pair. Even though the UniQ driver of the R series is basically the same as the Blades, it has been simplified in subtle ways, and I believe one of the three materials used has been removed. Obviously there's a difference in the size and power of the magnet too, which will affect performance. The R series doesn't have a fully dedicated section within it's cabinet for the UniQ driver - the Reference range has a cabinet module all of it's own for the UniQ, allowing midrange and treble to be completely unharmed by any other internal forces or sound waves.

Probably the biggest area of difference is the cabinet shape and volume, and the lack of force cancelling drivers. These all play a major role, and I think this is where the majority of the difference lies. Although KEF have done a great job in cutting down on cabinet vibrations and internal standing waves for the R series, no amount of work can match the curved and far more solidly built cabinet of the Reference range, and obviously this will be an area where the R's lack against the Blade too - the Blade isn't shaped the way it is to please the missus (apologies of anyone reads too much into that) - every sweeping curve is there for a reason, and all play their part in the resulting lack of colouration and smooth frequency response. One of the other major areas will be the crossover. While everything will be done to make them as transparent as possible, ultimate quality will be governed by budget.

One aspect that needs to be taken into consideration is the accompanying amplification. While both ranges are very efficient, the R series is a much easier load on an amplifier than the Reference range. We've run the R500's with a Leema Elements amplifier, which ran them very well, and the same will probably go for the R900 too. But use that amplifier for the 203/2's, and it will be struggling, as would most amps in it's price range. The 203/2's require far more control and current in order to give what they're capable of, and I think many people have never really heard the Reference range in that sort of situation.

While the new UniQ is undoubtedly better than the Reference UniQ, the Reference UniQ has been refined over many decades, and has been designed to work with the rest of the loudspeaker. While the Blade has affected my overall view of one of my previous favourite loudspeakers, the 205/2, and shifted it to second place, it's still a pretty special loudspeaker, and driven properly, can be everything that some people have ever wanted.

It's funny, but being able to appreciate what goes into the R series makes you realise just how much of a bargain the 203/2's are...
Bargin! Roll up, roll up ! :grin:
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks David, the wait was worthwhile :)

Though it makes me wonder... do you think that Kef will stick with the old UniQ while allowing it to mature, or will the next Reference generation also use the new UniQ?
 

Frank Harvey

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This is only my prediction, as I have no intel whatsoever on what is in store for Reference in the future...

I think it's pretty safe to say that future Reference products will use the newer UniQ driver. Whether that will be exactly the same as the one in the Blade, or something between the Blade and R UniQ, who knows.

Also what isn't know, is whether the cabinets will stay as they are, whether they'll revert to normal boxes like all other KEF's so far, or whether they'll be Blade shaped... :twisted:
 

CnoEvil

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
PP's on a roll today... :)

He's not the only one....good job, and thank you for that.

It's along the lines that I suspected....though can you elaborate just a little further, on how the characteristics of the treble in the Refs (driven properly), differ from that of the R series.

Thx

Cno
 
A

Anonymous

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
This is only my prediction, as I have no intel whatsoever on what is in store for Reference in the future...

I think it's pretty safe to say that future Reference products will use the newer UniQ driver. Whether that will be exactly the same as the one in the Blade, or something between the Blade and R UniQ, who knows.

Also what isn't know, is whether the cabinets will stay as they are, whether they'll revert to normal boxes like all other KEF's so far, or whether they'll be Blade shaped... :twisted:
Prediction ! What next'' MYSTIC DAVE'' ? :grin:
 

CnoEvil

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
I'll work on that and let you know in two weeks :rofl:

Exploding once is enough.....I've only just got myself together again. Next time might leave me like Humpty Dumpty! :O
 

Frank Harvey

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CnoEvil said:
It's along the lines that I suspected....though can you elaborate just a little further, on how the characteristics of the treble in the Refs (driven properly), differ from that of the R series. Thx Cno

I think because of the fact that the Reference UniQ sits in it's own section in the cabinet, it's totally resilliant to any interference from the other drivers, so is capable of a more open and detailed sound, with better soundstaging, depth and projection. The Blade is similarly designed and shows what the new UniQ is capable of.

One thing I forgot to mention was that one area where they will differ is headroom. The Reference series has phenomenal headroom, basically because they're over engineered.

I did have a better reply before, but the site messed up and I lost it, but above is the basics.
 

CnoEvil

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
I think because of the fact that the Reference UniQ sits in it's own section in the cabinet, it's totally resilliant to any interference from the other drivers, so is capable of a more open and detailed sound, with better soundstaging, depth and projection. The Blade is similarly designed and shows what the new UniQ is capable of.

One thing I forgot to mention was that one area where they will differ is headroom. The Reference series has phenomenal headroom, basically because they're over engineered.

I did have a better reply before, but the site messed up and I lost it, but above is the basics.

Now fully disarmed and bomb squad taken off red alert.

It takes a while for you to hit your stride and get your second wind, but when you do....

I don't know what I was torturing you for anyway, as I'm happy with my Refs....but once I get started on something, I'm like an anal dog with a bone. Though saying that, it should have made interesting reading for those looking at the R series (and bares out my first, though brief impression).
 

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