Kef 3005 SE versus BW MT20 (or something else) - large room

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Hi,

We have a KEF3005SE with Onkyo 606 in a room 5mx4m which we are really happy with. We now want to put sound surround in a big room (5mx8m with vaulted ceiling). We are thinking of putting the same system (606 plus 3005se), but with 7 speakers. Do you think this system would be able to cope with a room this size? MT20 (or30?) has also been recommended.

Also what sort of speaker cable?

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

I think it'd cope fine. I'd upgrade the amp before the speakers. And the 3005SE beat the MT20 in tests a year or so ago. The MT30 beats the 3005SE but not by enough to warrant a change. If I was in your boat I'd upgrade the subwoofer and then the amp and then later on go full size on the speakers.

Subs from BK would suit you well, they sell direct at a fraction of the cost of most main brands and manaufacture for several of them.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Will,

I need to make clear we are going to leave the Onkyo and KEF in the smaller room and buy a new system for the larger room. We just thought we would buy the same again as the we like the sound. If you think something different would suit the big room better then recommend away! However the bigger room is our main lounge so we don't want lots of large speakers everywhere- hence we thought we would stay with KEFs.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Simon M:
Hi Will,

I need to make clear we are going to leave the Onkyo and KEF in the smaller room and buy a new system for the larger room. We just thought we would buy the same again as the we like the sound. If you think something different would suit the big room better then recommend away! However the bigger room is our main lounge so we don't want lots of large speakers everywhere- hence we thought we would stay with KEFs.

These are better.

http://www.petertyson.co.uk/ebuttonz/ebz_product_pages/monitor_audio_r90_av-12.shtml

 

[Anonymous]

Ahha! I didn't understand that.

Well, in that case take a look at the KEF KHT5005.2 speakers system as well. You can get it for about £1100. My be an upgrade on the 3005SE. The MT-30 would be lovely, but I think Gerardasnails is right in that a set of proper speakers would sound a lot better. If you want to keep them small consider some M&Ks.

You haven't mentioned a budget though. My Dali Ikon 6 5.1 cost me £1850 and they're truly a step on from your KEFs though they are a lot bigger on the fronts.

 

[Anonymous]

I know it'd be a bit of a faff but why not set them up in the larger room and see what you think. I'd upgrade the amp though.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The room you're looking to fill is quite large, and it's probably a good idea to try what's already been suggested - your current setup in that room. At least then you may be able to pinpoint any weak points in the system and you can look to avoid or address these in whatever you choose for the job. A bigger room will definitely need a decent sub, and many packages just aren't going to measure up. The Quad Lite 2's a re a good start, as is the Monitor Audio Radius R90 AV12, which uses the RSW12 sub from their Silver Reference range. You could look at the 3005SE's again, but I'd consider adding a second HTB2SE sub. 7.1 would be recommended in larger rooms, especially those that are quite wide.

As far as amplifiers are concerned, I'd look at something with a little more power than the Onkyo 606 - maybe a 806 or 876, if you'd like to stick with Onkyo. Something like an 876 with the R90 package can be picked up for around £1400.

The Chord Leyline or Chord Campana will be fine for the sats, or maybe something a little better for the front 3 speakers if your amp is situated near your screen. QED's mini sub cables are good if you need something discreet running to the sub.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
The room you're looking to fill is quite large, and it's probably a good idea to try what's already been suggested - your current setup in that room. At least then you may be able to pinpoint any weak points in the system and you can look to avoid or address these in whatever you choose for the job. A bigger room will definitely need a decent sub, and many packages just aren't going to measure up. The Quad Lite 2's a re a good start, as is the Monitor Audio Radius R90 AV12, which uses the RSW12 sub from their Silver Reference range. You could look at the 3005SE's again, but I'd consider adding a second HTB2SE sub. 7.1 would be recommended in larger rooms, especially those that are quite wide.

As far as amplifiers are concerned, I'd look at something with a little more power than the Onkyo 606 - maybe a 806 or 876, if you'd like to stick with Onkyo. Something like an 876 with the R90 package can be picked up for around £1400.

The Chord Leyline or Chord Campana will be fine for the sats, or maybe something a little better for the front 3 speakers if your amp is situated near your screen. QED's mini sub cables are good if you need something discreet running to the sub.

By the way, you won't get a better package for £795 than that one from Frank - the RSW12 alone costs that much!!

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that. We may have had a change of plan. I was thinking I could replace my 15 years old Tannoy 605 HiFi speakers at the same time.

So if I looked at something like dali ikon 6 5.1 sound surround I believe I could use the front 2 speakers for HiFi by putting my Marantz CD52 MK 2(also 15 years old) CD player through the AV amp? By picking big speakers like the dali Ikon I think I would only need 5 not 7 speakers for sound surround (or at least see how it sounded with 5) AND I get the benefit of a using the speakers on my HiFi AND fewer overall speakers in the room!

Are there any 'buts' i.e. HiFi would now be worse as new AV amps are not as good as my 15 year old Denom PMA 250 Mk III amp and Denom Tuner TU260L? Are the Dali Ikons the way to go for both HiFi and Sound surround? If so what AV amp would I need? My hearing is not terrific so I would not want to spend a fortune on cable....QED anniversary OK?

Help!

 

[Anonymous]

I have the Dali's and they're great in stereo as well as for surround, but most importantly the set fit together really well sonically. You'll get a lot of pleasure from them. Much better sound than from sub / sats.

I think you'd need a slightly better amp to get the most out of the Dali's. I'd go for an Onkyo 875 which you can pick up now for £500. That's half the price it won it's awards at. That'd be the way to go and you'd be fine feeding your Marantz CD player into it. It'll totally kick axxx. you'll be really happy with it.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Will Harris:I have the Dali's and they're great in stereo as well as for surround, but most importantly the set fit together really well sonically. You'll get a lot of pleasure from them. Much better sound than from sub / sats.

I think you'd need a slightly better amp to get the most out of the Dali's. I'd go for an Onkyo 875 which you can pick up now for £500. That's half the price it won it's awards at. That'd be the way to go and you'd be fine feeding your Marantz CD player into it. It'll totally kick axxx. you'll be really happy with it.

I agree, I don't think the 606 is anywhere near good enough for the Dali speakers mentioned. However, instead of going for the 875, I would get a separate stereo amp and link it with the receiver. This is all adding up to way over your budget - as it always does!

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the information (not sure how i link amp to reciever, isnt that linking an amp to an amp- also means buying a reciever and an amp?).

Anyway going to listen to the Dali ikon front speakers (only, but if the hiFi fronts are good then I will assume the sound surround is eqaully good) at Vickers HifI in York on Saturday...I will let you know what happened next. As you say budget is looking well blown apart.

 

[Vimeous]

Many (if not all) modern surround amps will have outputs to send processed audio to a different amp.

In years gone by it wasn't unusual to buy a surround processor which did exactly this and had no on-board amplification for the fronts at all - only the rears, centre (and sub out).

These days it would mean you end up with a sterio amp and a full-blown surround amp/receiver. The obvious disadvantage being cost and the space to house all the kit.

The advantage is that when playing a sterio source (e.g. CD) using the sterio amp it should sound significantly better that if you only had a surround amp.

I would connect all the surround capable sources to the surround amp and the sterio ones to the sterio amp so theoretically get the best of both worlds. (the two amps then connected via interconnect to use the sterio amp for the front-channel surround output.)

 

[Anonymous]

I have the Kef 5005s. They sound terrific in my ~4m x 4m living room and being wall mounted, they take up absolutely no floor space. But to be honest, if I had your space, I'd probably be looking at full size speakers instead. It's not that I think they couldn't fill the room. It's just that pound for pound full size speakers will almost certainly sound better. I'd also recommend upgrading the amp before moving to the the 5005 package. You can get more from the 3005s.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Vimeous:
Many (if not all) modern surround amps will have outputs to send processed audio to a different amp.

In years gone by it wasn't unusual to buy a surround processor which did exactly this and had no on-board amplification for the fronts at all - only the rears, centre (and sub out).

These days it would mean you end up with a sterio amp and a full-blown surround amp/receiver. The obvious disadvantage being cost and the space to house all the kit.

The advantage is that when playing a sterio source (e.g. CD) using the sterio amp it should sound significantly better that if you only had a surround amp.

I would connect all the surround capable sources to the surround amp and the sterio ones to the sterio amp so theoretically get the best of both worlds. (the two amps then connected via interconnect to use the sterio amp for the front-channel surround output.)

This is basically correct but I've just remembered that the 606 doesn't have the pre outs you would need.

 

[Anonymous]

Well we had our trip out. We listened to HiFi speakers (full surround systems not available ) Monitor RS8, Dali Ikon 6 and we took along my 15 year old 'fallen of the stand a few times' Tannoy 6o5s. We played some pop and classical music and we found we really had to listen hard to tell the difference between any of the 3 systems. Listening blind we just managed to state the correct speakers 3 out of 5 times- which probably indicates how poor our hearing is rather than a reflection on the equipment!. On balance we preferred the brighter Ikons to the Monitors with our Tannoys coming a distant 3rd (mostly!). However since we still want sound surround and the Ikons system would kill 2 birds with one stone (HiFi upgrade and surround sound) we are going to go for it. Cheapest price I have seen is £2,090k for the Ikon 6 system.

The excellent man at the shop said he though Marantz avs were more musically inclined than other avs. Though we have heard good things about the Onkyo 876 (which we have seen for £650). So last (hopefully) questions..

1. If ,when, we get the Onkyo we decide we still want to use a HiFi amp, is the 876 capable of being connected to an amp for HiFi purposes? Who knows one day I might be able to afford a good HiFi amp.

2. Will the Onkyo, if used as a hifi amp, still produce a good hifi sound (compared to our 15 year old Denon PMA 250 III)

3. Comments on the Marantz SR6003 as an alternative would be welcome (or any other musical av amp).

4. As my budget is long since blown I intend to go for QED silver anniversary cable to try and save a little cash (and we have demonstrated our hearing is not great). Our longest runs will be about 12 metres (room is 8m long). OK?

5. Tuners. If the av tuner is as good as my old Denon 15 year old tuner then that gets rid of another box from my hifi system? Thoughts?

Many thanks to all of you so far for what has been really helpful advice.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the 876 will be plenty good enough in stereo for now. And when you upgrade you can simply use the 876s pre-outs to a stereo amplifier. Or a stereo power amp if you want to use the Onk as the pre.

Silver aniversary will be fine. I use it on mine and it works fine with a decent length.

I don't know about the radio. I haven't used the one in my 905 yet. Probably never will. More likely to get radio off Freeview or listen to Radio 4 in bed or something like that. I always think of radio as something for when I'm on the move, but each to their own.

The Denon TU-1800DAB would be the obvious addition when you're ready for it if you're really keen on Radio.

For the Dalis, just barter them down a bit. No-one's selling anything at the moment, so see if you can get a deal. As I said I paid £1850 in 2007 after a bit of haggling. The shop did nothing accept order them, hold them and let me collect them and take my money. So maybe you feel you owe yours something for the demo, that's your call.

 

[Vimeous]

Musically I've been pleasently surprised by my Yamaha so I'd certainly suggest an audition of the RX-V1900. The cheapest I've seen it for was £770. I don't know how the Onk, Marantz and Yamaha compliment the Dali's though.

I still use QED Qudos speaker cables for my fronts (equivalent to QED Original now) and am still impressed so your choice should be ideal for the better Ikon set.

For Radio what do you listen to? If you already have supporting hardware (wireless network etc) might you consider internet-radio?
Meanwhile I suggest you compare your new amp (assuming it's a receiver) to your current tuner at home so you have the best understanding of how the local signal affects each tuner.
If you're already stretching your budget I guess you're in no hurry unless a stunning deal appears

 

[Anonymous]

Consider the MT-30 or at least the PV1 sub which is an excellent sub - sound wise and style wise. It's also a triple WHF award winner which is quite an achievement.

 

[Anonymous]

seakingadvice:Consider the MT-30 or at least the PV1 sub which is an excellent sub - sound wise and style wise. It's also a triple WHF award winner which is quite an achievement.

Actually that's something I wouldn't do.

Most of the money in the MT-30 setup is in the PV1 subwoofer. The Dali Ikon 6 5.1 package are much better speakers and if you want to upgrade the sub later on then you can move way beyond the PV1 for £450 on a BK Monolith.

So if you have the room for them, go for the Dali's and leave the MT-30 for space constrained rooms where they'll balance better across performance, space and style.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Will Harris:seakingadvice:Consider the MT-30 or at least the PV1 sub which is an excellent sub - sound wise and style wise. It's also a triple WHF award winner which is quite an achievement.

Actually that's something I wouldn't do.

Most of the money in the MT-30 setup is in the PV1 subwoofer. The Dali Ikon 6 5.1 package are much better speakers and if you want to upgrade the sub later on then you can move way beyond the PV1 for £450 on a BK Monolith.

So if you have the room for them, go for the Dali's and leave the MT-30 for space constrained rooms where they'll balance better across performance, space and style.

Agreed. And if you are in need of a style system, the deal that Frank Harvey mentioned earlier for the MA Radius AV12 system is far better value than the MT30 package.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, I just realised that Simon is going for full sized instead of a style speaker system. Shouldn't the B&W 685s be on his auditioning list then? It's cheaper than the Dalis and he can buy a new amp with the spare cash, no?

IMO, B&W makes some of the most stylish looking speakers which would blend in well into the ID of a living room.

 

[Anonymous]

Indeed for a cheaper option the 685 pack with the 686 rears could be a cheaper but still very much hi-fi route.

I have to say I think the Monitor Audio Radius HD package is prettier though if we're talking small proper speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, agree that the MA Radius are presentable but somehow, I just love the kevlar on B&W speakers. And the design of the B&W Nautilus is really out of this world but so is its price!

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know about you, but I keep the grills on. I think speakers look much more elegent with their clothes on. Not a fan of looking at drivers. Unless you have a Bauhorn or something like that, or some beautiful electrostatics. But normal speakers are really not that attractive. But just my view of course!