Is this forum pointless?

[carter]

Stopped posting frequently on here a couple of years ago as I didn't want to associate with a couple of the members,life's to short and I've got better things to do with my time.

i would say it's not as good as it was,think people like pj and Gerrard were really good contributors and a guy I think was called Trevor who was very into mains conditioners had some very intresting posts

Still some really good posters on here with lots of good advice that I have benefitted from over the years

As I only check in a couple of times a week and have a quick scan of any interesting topics I'm not as familiar with some of the new members but it does feel a lot less civil than a couple of years ago and that's never a good thing.

 

[Alec]

If only it was that simple! Re your first point, the amount of time we spent (and wasted) in the past when we had more rigid rules dealing with troublemakers was unsustainable, and some of them seemed to get a certain satisfaction in being banned and then causing trouble behind the scenes. We're trying to find a sensible balance.

With regard to your second point, I'm now debating that with the moderators and we're taking on board some of the comments being made. I should point out that the moderators do what they do for free, in their own time and in between managing the rest of their lives - and jobs!

Yes, good point. But are there, or are there not rules?

Um, yes - http://www.whathifi.com/house-rules

 

[Freddy58]

If only it was that simple! Re your first point, the amount of time we spent (and wasted) in the past when we had more rigid rules dealing with troublemakers was unsustainable, and some of them seemed to get a certain satisfaction in being banned and then causing trouble behind the scenes. We're trying to find a sensible balance.

With regard to your second point, I'm now debating that with the moderators and we're taking on board some of the comments being made. I should point out that the moderators do what they do for free, in their own time and in between managing the rest of their lives - and jobs!

Yes, good point. But are there, or are there not rules?

Um, yes - http://www.whathifi.com/house-rules

You're too late, I already posted the relevant rules regarding this...

 

[Alec]

If only it was that simple! Re your first point, the amount of time we spent (and wasted) in the past when we had more rigid rules dealing with troublemakers was unsustainable, and some of them seemed to get a certain satisfaction in being banned and then causing trouble behind the scenes. We're trying to find a sensible balance.

With regard to your second point, I'm now debating that with the moderators and we're taking on board some of the comments being made. I should point out that the moderators do what they do for free, in their own time and in between managing the rest of their lives - and jobs!

Yes, good point. But are there, or are there not rules?

Um, yes - http://www.whathifi.com/house-rules

You're too late, I already posted the relevant rules regarding this...

Just not really sure what you're asking or what your point is, but then you weren't asking me.

 

[Freddy58]

If only it was that simple! Re your first point, the amount of time we spent (and wasted) in the past when we had more rigid rules dealing with troublemakers was unsustainable, and some of them seemed to get a certain satisfaction in being banned and then causing trouble behind the scenes. We're trying to find a sensible balance.

With regard to your second point, I'm now debating that with the moderators and we're taking on board some of the comments being made. I should point out that the moderators do what they do for free, in their own time and in between managing the rest of their lives - and jobs!

Yes, good point. But are there, or are there not rules?

Um, yes - http://www.whathifi.com/house-rules

You're too late, I already posted the relevant rules regarding this...

Just not really sure what you're asking or what your point is, but then you weren't asking me.

Maybe you should check out my previous posts? The point is simple. If there are rules, then maybe they should be applied.

 

[Alec]

Well, Andy has kind of already answered that.

 

[Native_bon]

The problem with the forum is some people seem to think their views are the absolute truth. Every one should have their say & be respected. No matter the opinion of anyone I think all should be respected. Any one reading these pages will then be able to tell in some way or the other what makes sense to them or what seems important to them.

No matter what is said aa far as the other person is respected, everyone has as much right as the next to put accros their opinion.

Yes some users give useful advice but, some seem to know it all & regard others view pionts as irrelevant.

 

[Ajani]

Truth is that some persons will only be kept inline if their posts are deleted and their membership suspended/terminated.

I think WHF needs more strict moderation. They don't need to go quite as far as the old days when you couldn't even discuss moderation, but things are too relaxed now. So the persons intent on being rude and disruptive have no reason to behave.

If only it was that simple! Re your first point, the amount of time we spent (and wasted) in the past when we had more rigid rules dealing with troublemakers was unsustainable, and some of them seemed to get a certain satisfaction in being banned and then causing trouble behind the scenes. We're trying to find a sensible balance.

With regard to your second point, I'm now debating that with the moderators and we're taking on board some of the comments being made. I should point out that the moderators do what they do for free, in their own time and in between managing the rest of their lives - and jobs!

You are correct. I did make it sound too simple. Moderation really is a difficult balancing act: Get too strict and forum members start calling you Nazis, relax the rules too much and suddenly you have chaos.

I really hope you guys find that sensible balance. I would hate to see WHF forums go the route of my previous regular HiFi forum. Once a very popular forum, but now hardly any new posts, simply because most of us got tired of the abuse that occured because of loose moderation. I deleted my account there over a year ago, because another forum member decided to stalk every post I made, just to toss insults at me, and getting the mods to take action was like pulling teeth. So I might be paranoid based on that experience, but I would truly hate to see this forum go down the same path.

 

[Broner]

The question should be asked to a theoretical philosopher.

If you asked a philosopher, they'd spend an age defining what "pointless" meant (I know - I've written essays just like that...)

That's the first thing I would tackle (me have a degree in philosophy).

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Stopped posting frequently on here a couple of years ago as I didn't want to associate with a couple of the members,life's to short and I've got better things to do with my time.

i would say it's not as good as it was,think people like pj and Gerrard were really good contributors and a guy I think was called Trevor who was very into mains conditioners had some very intresting posts

Still some really good posters on here with lots of good advice that I have benefitted from over the years

As I only check in a couple of times a week and have a quick scan of any interesting topics I'm not as familiar with some of the new members but it does feel a lot less civil than a couple of years ago and that's never a good thing.

Oh, I remember PJPro! Top man!

 

[ID.]

It seems that everyone is in agreement that the problem with the forum is everyone but themselves

Unfortunately there is very little you can do to change other people, but you can change the way you feel about what they do/say and just take it in one's stride or even ignore certain posts/topics/people.

I agree that the forum has lost some quality posters over the years, but to paraphrase, ask not what your forum can do for you but what you can do for your forum.

Laments about the current quality of posting versus the past, etc. are pretty common on most forums I've frequented.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

IMO the weakness of this forum (and the mag), being a gear-centric one, is lack of technical competence on the host's side. I know WHF is subjective and is serving the hifi industry as opposed to the consumer, but in evaluating gear a certain solid technical level is still a must. In its absence the discussions instead of being driven by competence, get driven by the loudness of the posters and eventually get confused. I think if technical level is increased in both the mag and the forum (not instead of journalistic and promotional elements, but in addition to them), the forum's and the mag's reputation and influence will improve.

Edit: having said that... I do realise WHF is a business and is after the majority and the majority IS non-technical, so they follow that. There are other more technical sound gear centric mags eg. sound on sound. So maybe my and some others' expectation is completely wrong and it is not realistic from busness perspective, even for a large gear-centric mag, to carry the cost of technical competence just to support the promotional element. In that case, just accept this model.

however, moderation still could be improved. Personal attacks should be on zero tolerance.

 

[matt49]

IMO the weakness of this forum (and the mag), being a gear-centric one, is lack of technical competence on the host's side. I know WHF is subjective and is serving the hifi industry as opposed to the consumer, but in evaluating gear a certain solid technical level is still a must. In its absence the discussions instead of being driven by competence, get driven by the loudness of the posters and eventually get confused. I think if technical level is increased in both the mag and the forum (not instead of journalistic and promotional elements, but in addition to them), the forum's and the mag's reputation and influence will improve.

I think this is wrong on two counts.

WHF doesn't 'serve the hifi industry' any more than do magazines that publish highly technical reviews complete with specs. Have you seen the way Stereophile bends over backwards to avoid offending manufacturers whose kit it reviews?

Increase the amount of technical data and sales will fall, so also the mag's influence will reduce. Most of the people who buy WHF don't want technical data. You seem to be suggesting WHF should become like HFN, which produces loads of data but has a much smaller circulation and much less influence.

Matt

 

[Native_bon]

IMO the weakness of this forum (and the mag), being a gear-centric one, is lack of technical competence on the host's side. I know WHF is subjective and is serving the hifi industry as opposed to the consumer, but in evaluating gear a certain solid technical level is still a must. In its absence the discussions instead of being driven by competence, get driven by the loudness of the posters and eventually get confused. I think if technical level is increased in both the mag and the forum (not instead of journalistic and promotional elements, but in addition to them), the forum's and the mag's reputation and influence will improve.

Edit: having said that... I do realise WHF is a business and is after the majority and the majority IS non-technical, so they follow that. There are other more technical sound gear centric mags eg. sound on sound. So maybe my and some others' expectation is completely wrong and it is not realistic from busness perspective, even for a large gear-centric mag, to carry the cost of technical competence just to support the promotional element. In that case, just accept this model.

however, moderation still could be improved. Personal attacks should be on zero tolerance.

See this as a very valued piont & also most people do not see HIFI from the piont of people who produce the music which they listen to on their systems. Technical information will go a long way.

 

[chebby]

You seem to be suggesting WHF should become like HFN, which produces loads of data but has a much smaller circulation and much less influence.

Matt

As I discovered a few days ago, HFN&RR and Hi-fi Choice are both published by AVTech Media and owned in turn by MyTime Media group. All of their lab testing is conducted by Miller Audio Research which is owned by HFN Editor (and AVTech Group Editor) Paul Miller.

This suggests that Paul Miller not only controls both magazines (and two other Home Cinema and Satellite TV titles) as Group Editor and Editor, but also has a monopoly on all of their lab testing.

Miller Audio Research also lists (on his website) some high profile customers for his testing kit from the UK hi-fi industry. (Naim, Arcam and Chord Electronics.)

It would seem that WHF? (Haymarket) would either have to buy into Miller Audio Research, as a customer, or get someone else with similar facilities, contacts, knowledge, experience and insight to the industry (both manufacturers and media) if they exist, or completely 're-invent the wheel' and set up a parallel test lab with properly credentialled test staff who specialist in audio electronics and acoustics.

This may (or may not) buy them some more credibility, with a small subset of readers who value in-depth technical reports, but I doubt it would be enough to increase readership in sufficent numbers to pay for the effort (especially in the face of globally declining readership for all printed media).

 

[Alec]

I pretty much agree with ID, especially his first sentence.

 

[margetti]

Here's an idea

You know how some publications have a "guest editor" on occassion... how about WHF let the forum members run the mag for a month and we'll see what the result is like... and the corresponding circulation figures :rofl:

 

[Native_bon]

You seem to be suggesting WHF should become like HFN, which produces loads of data but has a much smaller circulation and much less influence.

Matt

As I discovered a few days ago, HFN&RR and Hi-fi Choice are both published by AVTech Media and owned in turn by MyTime Media group. All of their lab testing is conducted by Miller Audio Research which is owned by HFN Editor (and AVTech Group Editor) Paul Miller.

This suggests that Paul Miller not only controls both magazines (and two other Home Cinema and Satellite TV titles) as Group Editor and Editor, but also has a monopoly on all of their lab testing.

Miller Audio Research also lists (on his website) some high profile customers for his testing kit from the UK hi-fi industry. (Naim, Arcam and Chord Electronics.)

It would seem that WHF? (Haymarket) would either have to buy into Miller Audio Research, as a customer, or get someone else with similar facilities, contacts, knowledge, experience and insight to the industry (both manufacturers and media) if they exist, or completely 're-invent the wheel' and set up a parallel test lab with properly credentialled test staff who specialist in audio electronics and acoustics.

This may (or may not) buy them some more credibility, with a small subset of readers who value in-depth technical reports, but I doubt it would be enough to increase readership in sufficent numbers to pay for the effort (especially in the face of globally declining readership for all printed media).

Well the answer would be to get someone else to do lab test.

 

[plastic penguin]

Chebby makes a viable case and Margetti has had a nasty bang on the head.

Back to the OP's opening gambit: This forum has helped so many people over the years, including yours truly, in terms of guidance and no less entertainment. Therefore, by that very fact, this forum has proven the OP is so wrong in posing such a question. Sure you get the egoes who want nothing more than promoting a idiotic stance (common with most/all forums).

All-in-all, though, it isn't as fun as it once was, which is a shame, but for straight help it is fine.

 

[andyjm]

It would seem that WHF? (Haymarket) would either have to buy into Miller Audio Research, as a customer, or get someone else with similar facilities, contacts, knowledge, experience and insight to the industry (both manufacturers and media) if they exist, or completely 're-invent the wheel' and set up a parallel test lab with properly credentialled test staff who specialist in audio electronics and acoustics.

This may (or may not) buy them some more credibility, with a small subset of readers who value in-depth technical reports, but I doubt it would be enough to increase readership in sufficent numbers to pay for the effort (especially in the face of globally declining readership for all printed media).

So what did WHF spend their £1Million on for their 'test labs' - the sofas?

 

[professorhat]

So what did WHF spend their £1Million on for their 'test labs' - the sofas?

They're quite comfortable, but not that comfortable. Try looking here.

 

[chebby]

It would seem that WHF? (Haymarket) would either have to buy into Miller Audio Research, as a customer, or get someone else with similar facilities, contacts, knowledge, experience and insight to the industry (both manufacturers and media) if they exist, or completely 're-invent the wheel' and set up a parallel test lab with properly credentialled test staff who specialist in audio electronics and acoustics.

This may (or may not) buy them some more credibility, with a small subset of readers who value in-depth technical reports, but I doubt it would be enough to increase readership in sufficent numbers to pay for the effort (especially in the face of globally declining readership for all printed media).

So what did WHF spend their £1Million on for their 'test labs' - the sofas?

Given the price of commercial property in that area, i'd guess most of it was spent on the space itself. (I've just looked at one nearby example where 3,900 sq feet is going for £1,100,000.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

IMO the weakness of this forum (and the mag), being a gear-centric one, is lack of technical competence on the host's side. I know WHF is subjective and is serving the hifi industry as opposed to the consumer, but in evaluating gear a certain solid technical level is still a must. In its absence the discussions instead of being driven by competence, get driven by the loudness of the posters and eventually get confused. I think if technical level is increased in both the mag and the forum (not instead of journalistic and promotional elements, but in addition to them), the forum's and the mag's reputation and influence will improve.

I think this is wrong on two counts.

WHF doesn't 'serve the hifi industry' any more than do magazines that publish highly technical reviews complete with specs. Have you seen the way Stereophile bends over backwards to avoid offending manufacturers whose kit it reviews?

Increase the amount of technical data and sales will fall, so also the mag's influence will reduce. Most of the people who buy WHF don't want technical data. You seem to be suggesting WHF should become like HFN, which produces loads of data but has a much smaller circulation and much less influence.

Matt

I am not suggesting to necessarily increase the amount of technical data published in the mag. I am suggesting to increase the level of tech competence behind the testing, writing, blogging, editing and moderating. For a gear-focussed publication this is a must IMO.

 

[chebby]

I am not suggesting to necessarily increase the amount of technical data published in the mag. I am suggesting to increase the level of tech competence behind the testing, writing, blogging, editing and moderating. For a gear-focussed publication this is a must IMO.

I imagine it's hard to find journalists with the required technical knowledge.

For example, in recruitment ads for their Stuff, FourFourTwo and What Hi-fi? Sound and Vision publishing interns, Haymarket have specified ...

"An interest in technology and/or football not required but an ability to transfer this enthusiasm to the business is an advantage."

(It also states that "What Hi-Fi will be the primary role".)

 

[The_Lhc]

I am not suggesting to necessarily increase the amount of technical data published in the mag. I am suggesting to increase the level of tech competence behind the testing, writing, blogging, editing and moderating. For a gear-focussed publication this is a must IMO.

So you're actually suggesting that WHF should moderate forum posts for technical accuracy and competence? Good luck with that...