Is it time to go back to LPs?

[Brokenflame]

This is a long one bear with me on this: I'm not an old man, even if I act like it sometimes but I'm wondering where we are going with music and if I actually even want to go there.

You see I have two issues:

1. I like to physically own my music.

2. I’m no longer sure if I want digital or analogue music.

Lets start with point one:

You see we are entering the age of leasing and renting. More and more people rent housing and lease cars, due to the unaffordability of these items these day. However this trend is not limited to physical items. If you purchase things though iTunes, you are leasing the item you purchase. If you use Spotify, Tidal etc. you are renting month by month.

I understand the benefits of subscription services, no storage cost, a massive library of content etc. But it’s not mine, if I want to listen to the same couple of songs until I’m old and grey, I will have to continually pay for them. It is kind of like saying “please take x amount of money from my account every month until I die”. On the other hand you have iTune, which allow you to lease the song for a one off payment. But there is that issue again, I can’t lend my son that song, or give it to him when I die. He would have to go and lease it for himself.

If you are into the latest and greatest of new music the subscriptions would workout cheaper, but you would have to be buying two albums a month for that to be the case. Per month, I might only find myself only liking one new song.

Also, am I the only one that likes having a physical music collection, and seeing all the different art work? Yes I rip my CDs so I can listen to them on my phone, but when I’m at home I like to see them all stacked up nice and neat, and I enjoy the physical activity of changing the disk/record every now and again.

Point 2:

I am of the digital age, no two ways about it. But that doesn’t mean I want GM food 2.0. So the question is do I want GM music? After all we spend a lot of time and money trying to get our Hifi equipment to reproduce the original sound, so why do we settle of a digital recording when the original sound was analogue?

It wouldn’t have bothered me pre 2010, but I appreciate a good DAC, amp and pair of speakers now. After experiencing this, I am questioning if I like digital sound at all. Digital sound can ring a bit in the ears after a while. Yes you can set minimum phase on the DAC but this simply smooths out the samples.

By no means do I like the hissing, popping and so one of old LPs. But they do sound different.

But on the other hand more and more LPs are pressed from digital sources, which defeats the purpose of LPs analogue sound anyway.

Besides with LP’s there is so much more maintenance and possibilities for distortion in sound.

Now you may think the answer to my question is simple, buy Hi-Res audio discs. While I have a player, I have found it difficult to obtain DVD-audio or Blu-Ray audio discs. The selection seem very limited, and usually of artist before my time. Amazon, HMV, and even HD Tracks don’t really hit the main stream with their collection of 192khz/24bit music.

Besides this point, I I would like to see bit depth.

Disclaimer: I have not affiliation with the music industry, my advice is based on my own experience and electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis.

 

[insider9]

Brokenflame, I'll start by saying I enjoy your contribution to this forum. Your posts are always thoughful and helpful.

In regards to the above subject. I decided a while ago that I will only own music (physical media) that I enjoy and I'm boud to listen to it on a regular basis or by artists I have or intend to have full collections of. Spotify/radio fills the other need for exploration rather well. It isn't due to financial motives or space but simply that the things that don't get used in my house end up in charity shops or on auction sites. I don't like owning something if it's never going to get used.

By talking to others I find that the way I mostly listen to music (whole album at a time) is different to vast majority. Playlists (modern equivalent of mixed tape) are ever present and the interaction with artists are on the level of their best single not their worst song on the album. Of course it is natural that with such broad access the level of intimacy is gone but it saddens me.

In regards to your second point. I am 100% sure that the way to go is vinyl. Even with an old system I used to have (Ariston Qdeck, Onkyo A9010, Dali Zensor 3) I could tell that the depth, the quality of sound of individual instruments and overall musicality was better than any cd I played and that's when using semi worn records.

Unfortunately cost of music here is steep in comparison hence main reason I decided to focus on digital system until I'm fully satisfied with it. I will pursue vinyl when I can afford a to spend £500+ on a turntable and initially a similar amount of money on records. Buying a couple of albums a month is not the main issue here it's replacing 30 albums I couldn't live without.

The reason here is, I know once I start there is no going back.

 

[muljao]

I like owning physical music also, but not as much as the convenience of digital, now that I have figured a way to play it losslessly or at least at a quality that sounds good to me. I have probaly 1300 cds in my attic now, and with children around and storage, things sometimes get damaged, lost or scrathed.

Before I had kids every cd I had was mint, like the day it was bought, now I will have to go through my collection and I am sure 50 or more are only fit for the bin. This was of course in some way down to my own carelessness, though once or twice my wife would throw cds into a drawer with keys etc.

I don't think my kids will ever care if i leave them cds, more likely they would be a hindrance for those who grew up in the world of youtube and spotify.

As for vinyl, I think if one has a big vinyl collection it is great to keep going, but to start a vinyl collection now both limits choice due availability, and ramps up cost for the same reason

 

[davedotco]

I'm pretty much the complete opposite.

I am not a collector (of anything), my musical tastes are varied and constantly shifting. The idea of limiting myself to a 'collection' of music to listen to over and over again is anathema to me.

For the moment Spotify serves me well, I have no allegiance, and will happily change to a service that I find better should one occur.

For my own listening, I no longer do 'hi-fi', my system is more than good enough given the self imposed limits of streaming and speaker placement. That a good (I have no time for budget or mid-fi record players) vinyl system is capable of the finest portrayal of recorded music is to my mind unarguable, but to me at this point in time irrelevant.

I made my choice some time ago, and though I occasionally hear good vinyl playback and invariably enjoy it, I am certainly not going back.

 

[abacus]

In the old days, it was hit or miss whether you liked an album or not, and if you didn’t, you had wasted your money, with Spotify (You can use the free version if you don’t mind adverts) you can try the album before you buy, and if you like it, you can then buy the physical media safe in the knowledge that you have not wasted your money. (It’s a win, win situation)

Vinyl sounds nice, but due to the physical limitations of the technology, there is no way it can reproduce a totally accurate representation of the original master. CD (Or lossless files) give you a !00% accurate representation of the original master/mix. (Unfortunately if the original master/mix is bad, it will sound bad, as it is true to the original master/mix.

To use an old quote “You have never had it so good” as you have it today.

Bill

 

[Barbapapa]

Thanks for opening this thread, it prompted me to listen to a few LPs again. However, I'm sorry to say that at the moment I don't notice a significant difference. Admittedly I use a cheap Sony record player (think some EUR 150 about 15 years ago), so maybe that is the cause for limited quality. This is disappointing as I'm quite open to uncover new possibilties.

If there is any difference it is in the same slight order as the difference I may possibly perceive between CDs and hi-res downloads (including DSD). It may sound somewhat softer, rounded, which in itself is preferable to me. However, I can also hear limitations : it appears that the frequency band is more restricted than with digital music. This may be due to my set-up or intrinsic to the medium itself.

I would like to hear whether others have different experiences (such as Chebby mentioned).

 

[manicm]

I'm pretty much the complete opposite.

I am not a collector (of anything), my musical tastes are varied and constantly shifting. The idea of limiting myself to a 'collection' of music to listen to over and over again is anathema to me.

For the moment Spotify serves me well, I have no allegiance, and will happily change to a service that I find better should one occur.

For my own listening, I no longer do 'hi-fi', my system is more than good enough given the self imposed limits of streaming and speaker placement. That a good (I have no time for budget or mid-fi record players) vinyl system is capable of the finest portrayal of recorded music is to my mind unarguable, but to me at this point in time irrelevant.

I made my choice some time ago, and though I occasionally hear good vinyl playback and invariably enjoy it, I am certainly not going back.

That's fine, until the day, like Netflix offloads movies and TV series, Spotify suddenly offloads your music off the cloud, what will you do then? Unlikely but possible.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Seems odd to me that on one post you are arguing for super high resolution, multi-channel audio, and in another you are arguing for a return to a medium that has been around, basically, for 100 years.

You can't have it both ways you know....

The record companies make an absolute killing on their back catalogues, "remastered" releases, "new" compilations, etc., All on CD.

Compared to vinyl CD sounds incredible, if a little "cold" to some people, and super high resolution stuff only appeals to a small clique of people with the equipment (and money) to make use of it.

Finally, remember most pop music is here today, gone tomorrow, disposable dross. Would I buy Dross, sorry Goss, in super high resolution multi-channel format?? No siree!!

 

[manix]

It's a severe case of 'member berries' which I think both the public and the industries are suffering from.

Turntables I would guess have not had so much press since the time of mid 80's in hi-fi mags. I'm not to sure this resurgence is going to last more than a few years though.

Over the last year I have thought a few times oh what about a new turntable. Then I think hold on what were the reasons why I got rid of my old one. It's like a slap round the face and suddenly I don't want one again.

 

[Al ears]

Seems odd to me that on one post you are arguing for super high resolution, multi-channel audio, and in another you are arguing for a return to a medium that has been around, basically, for 100 years.

You can't have it both ways you know....

The record companies make an absolute killing on their back catalogues, "remastered" releases, "new" compilations, etc., All on CD.

Compared to vinyl CD sounds incredible, if a little "cold" to some people, and super high resolution stuff only appeals to a small clique of people with the equipment (and money) to make use of it.

Finally, remember most pop music is here today, gone tomorrow, disposable dross. Would I buy Dross, sorry Goss, in super high resolution multi-channel format?? No siree!!

Oh yes you can. ;-)

 

[bigfish786]

Nobody needs to decide digital or analogue.

have both.

Love the noiseless background of digital.

love the pops and clicks, hiss, and everything else you get with analogue.

Just enjoy it all.

Its a hobby, a passion, it's supposed to be enjoyed.

 

[davedotco]

I'm pretty much the complete opposite.

I am not a collector (of anything), my musical tastes are varied and constantly shifting. The idea of limiting myself to a 'collection' of music to listen to over and over again is anathema to me.

For the moment Spotify serves me well, I have no allegiance, and will happily change to a service that I find better should one occur.

For my own listening, I no longer do 'hi-fi', my system is more than good enough given the self imposed limits of streaming and speaker placement. That a good (I have no time for budget or mid-fi record players) vinyl system is capable of the finest portrayal of recorded music is to my mind unarguable, but to me at this point in time irrelevant.

I made my choice some time ago, and though I occasionally hear good vinyl playback and invariably enjoy it, I am certainly not going back.

That's fine, until the day, like Netflix offloads movies and TV series, Spotify suddenly offloads your music off the cloud, what will you do then? Unlikely but possible.

But I think that it would require the complete collapse of western civilisation and the internet.

Going to happen soon enough, though we should get another 10-20 years with luck.

Probably enough for me.

 

[andyjm]

Broken,

Unless buying second hand, I am not sure if it is possible to buy much music these days that has not had at least one digital step in the chain from singer to speaker.

LPs mangle the sound far worse than CDs, but they seem to do so in a way that is pleasing to the ear - and that's just fine as this is all about personal preference not technical excellence.

With that in mind, just picking up on a few of your comments:

After all we spend a lot of time and money trying to get our Hifi equipment to reproduce the original sound, so why do we settle of a digital recording when the original sound was analogue?

.. because the dynamic range, frequency response, background noise and repeatability of a 16/44.1 digital system is much better than an LP based analogue playback system?

Yes you can set minimum phase on the DAC but this simply smooths out the samples.

Could you explain what this means?

Besides this point, I I would like to see bit depth.

Disclaimer: I have not affiliation with the music industry, my advice is based on my own experience and electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis.

Which electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis are these?

 

[Al ears]

Broken,

Unless buying second hand, I am not sure if it is possible to buy much music these days that has not had at least one digital step in the chain from singer to speaker.

LPs mangle the sound far worse than CDs, but they seem to do so in a way that is pleasing to the ear - and that's just fine as this is all about personal preference not technical excellence.

With that in mind, just picking up on a few of your comments:

After all we spend a lot of time and money trying to get our Hifi equipment to reproduce the original sound, so why do we settle of a digital recording when the original sound was analogue?

.. because the dynamic range, frequency response, background noise and repeatability of a 16/44.1 digital system is much better than an LP based analogue playback system?

Yes you can set minimum phase on the DAC but this simply smooths out the samples.

Could you explain what this means?

Besides this point, I I would like to see bit depth.

Disclaimer: I have not affiliation with the music industry, my advice is based on my own experience and electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis.

Which electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis are these?

I'd tend to agree with this but this may be in an ideal world. It's my opinion that some modern CD's I own are so poorly mastered and so compressed it's audibly apparent I find the vinyl version just sounds more 'real' . Just my personal opinion you understand and this is certainly not the case with all CD's. NB: I am assuming you mean CD type digital when you quote this quality and not a digital download.

 

[TrevC]

Surely the medium to collect these days is CD. Superior sound quality and lower risk than vinyl, and countless second hand bargains from everywhere .

 

[chebby]

Surely the medium to collect these days is CD. Superior sound quality and lower risk than vinyl, and countless second hand bargains from everywhere .

+1

Despite my use of streaming, internet radio (and FM) and having most of my CD collection ripped, CDs are still my major 'media spend' each month. More than DVD/BD, more than the premium streaming service. About £30 on CDs last month.

I just don't really need a dedicated CD player. My new Sony BDP S4500 is perfect for that (connected with optical cable to the DAC in my hi-fi). Someone here recommended it a few weeks ago and it's superb.

 

[manix]

Broken,

Unless buying second hand, I am not sure if it is possible to buy much music these days that has not had at least one digital step in the chain from singer to speaker.

LPs mangle the sound far worse than CDs, but they seem to do so in a way that is pleasing to the ear - and that's just fine as this is all about personal preference not technical excellence.

With that in mind, just picking up on a few of your comments:

After all we spend a lot of time and money trying to get our Hifi equipment to reproduce the original sound, so why do we settle of a digital recording when the original sound was analogue?

.. because the dynamic range, frequency response, background noise and repeatability of a 16/44.1 digital system is much better than an LP based analogue playback system?

Yes you can set minimum phase on the DAC but this simply smooths out the samples.

Could you explain what this means?

Besides this point, I I would like to see bit depth.

Disclaimer: I have not affiliation with the music industry, my advice is based on my own experience and electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis.

Which electronic engineering principles used in signal analysis are these?

I'd tend to agree with this but this may be in an ideal world. It's my opinion that some modern CD's I own are so poorly mastered and so compressed it's audibly apparent I find the vinyl version just sounds more 'real' . Just my personal opinion you understand and this is certainly not the case with all CD's. NB: I am assuming you mean CD type digital when you quote this quality and not a digital download.

Personally I think things have stepped up in the last 6 or so years on CD's and also balanced out the newer sonic capabilities of our hi-fi systems. I tend to find it's older CD's that have problems. Generally speaking. But it all opinions at the end of the day.

 

[manicm]

I'm pretty much the complete opposite.

I am not a collector (of anything), my musical tastes are varied and constantly shifting. The idea of limiting myself to a 'collection' of music to listen to over and over again is anathema to me.

For the moment Spotify serves me well, I have no allegiance, and will happily change to a service that I find better should one occur.

For my own listening, I no longer do 'hi-fi', my system is more than good enough given the self imposed limits of streaming and speaker placement. That a good (I have no time for budget or mid-fi record players) vinyl system is capable of the finest portrayal of recorded music is to my mind unarguable, but to me at this point in time irrelevant.

I made my choice some time ago, and though I occasionally hear good vinyl playback and invariably enjoy it, I am certainly not going back.

That's fine, until the day, like Netflix offloads movies and TV series, Spotify suddenly offloads your music off the cloud, what will you do then? Unlikely but possible.

But I think that it would require the complete collapse of western civilisation and the internet.

Going to happen soon enough, though we should get another 10-20 years with luck.

Probably enough for me.

You misunderstood me, I wasn't talking about technology breakdown, but Spotify removing music from their service. Like Netflix is doing with shows.

 

[Gazzip]

Why not buy the CD's, rip to FLAC and add DSP to your system? That way you own it and you can tune to the sound as you age and your HF hearing begins to fall away. Records are NOT the way to go in the pursuit of audio Nirvana. I own a nice turntable, but am under no illusion that it sounds more accurate than my digital stuff. Just different in a nice way...

 

[Andrewjvt]

Why not buy the CD's, rip to FLAC and add DSP to your system? That way you own it and you can tune to the sound as you age and your HF hearing begins to fall away. Records are NOT the way to go in the pursuit of audio Nirvana. I own a nice turntable, but am under no illusion that it sounds more accurate than my digital stuff. Just different in a nice way...

Thats a more balanced viewpoint i thought

 

[davedotco]

I'm pretty much the complete opposite.

I am not a collector (of anything), my musical tastes are varied and constantly shifting. The idea of limiting myself to a 'collection' of music to listen to over and over again is anathema to me.

For the moment Spotify serves me well, I have no allegiance, and will happily change to a service that I find better should one occur.

For my own listening, I no longer do 'hi-fi', my system is more than good enough given the self imposed limits of streaming and speaker placement. That a good (I have no time for budget or mid-fi record players) vinyl system is capable of the finest portrayal of recorded music is to my mind unarguable, but to me at this point in time irrelevant.

I made my choice some time ago, and though I occasionally hear good vinyl playback and invariably enjoy it, I am certainly not going back.

That's fine, until the day, like Netflix offloads movies and TV series, Spotify suddenly offloads your music off the cloud, what will you do then? Unlikely but possible.

But I think that it would require the complete collapse of western civilisation and the internet.

Going to happen soon enough, though we should get another 10-20 years with luck.

Probably enough for me.

You misunderstood me, I wasn't talking about technology breakdown, but Spotify removing music from their service. Like Netflix is doing with shows.

I was in a somewhat apocalyptic mood, often the case these days.

It is in the nature of music streaming solutions vary with things added and deleted, I was in tears ( *cray2* ) when Taylor Swift removed her albums from Spotify, but the relatively recent (about a year ago?) addition of Dylans catalogue have given me hours of pleasure.

Mrs DDC arrived home from the gym quite early this evening to find me with the 1966 manchester concert cranked up pretty high, she is not a great fan.

That said, you pay monthly, no commitment, so if another service does better, just switch...*unknw*

 

[Brokenflame]

@Benedict_Arnold

The threads were very different this one is about Analogue sound, and the disadvantages of today's digital music, and where I want to go with my music collection.

While the other thread asks why we haven't moved on from stereo 44.1khz@16bit since the 80s.

I was not educated in the dynamic or mathematics of sound formally, or even biology. But electronic I do know. So I am aware of the Red Book (the CD specification red book, and Network Communication BIG Red book). I know the advantages of PCM and the mechanics of the rotation of the CD drive, the near zero noise impact on the bit stream from the CD-Drive components etc.

So you might be thinking why ask such an obvious question. I know that CD's are superior to LPs, and lossless files on solid state drives are superior to CDs (I'll explain someother time). But that's not the question, the question is do I want to use LPs? And if so who else has go backwards and why. Is it the cover art, lack of pre-rining, just the experience of owning LPs?

 

[Al ears]

Why not buy the CD's, rip to FLAC and add DSP to your system? That way you own it and you can tune to the sound as you age and your HF hearing begins to fall away. Records are NOT the way to go in the pursuit of audio Nirvana. I own a nice turntable, but am under no illusion that it sounds more accurate than my digital stuff. Just different in a nice way...

If you enjoy the LP as a medium what's to stop you simply ripping / cleaning that to FLAC or some other format? It can be done although, admittedly, it's going to cost more than a collection of CD's.

Anyway, to answer the OP, the answer is No. If you want to own music stick to CD. Personally I wouldn't be 'going back' to LP as I never left it but I do seem to be buying less and less these days and spending more on CD's and downloads (both of which you 'own' )

 

[Waxy]

There is no right way or wrong way to go about it. Much like Al, I never stopped buying vinyl, but unlike Al I seldom buy CDs, and I have never bought a digital download. I do however listen to a fair bit of Internet radio which is where I discover a lot of new music.

*music2*

 

[andyjm]

So you might be thinking why ask such an obvious question. I know that CD's are superior to LPs, and lossless files on solid state drives are superior to CDs (I'll explain someother time). But that's not the question, the question is do I want to use LPs? And if so who else has go backwards and why. Is it the cover art, lack of pre-rining, just the experience of owning LPs?

Broken,

You are obviously new around here. If you are interested, there must be thousands of threads on this very subject on this forum, and I guess every other similar HiFi forum out there.

But just going through it all one more time:

Technically, LPs suck, CDs suck less. All other things being equal, LPs should have died by now. For whatever reason, (different mastering, specific 'pleasing' distortion introduced by LPs, fashion, personal preference....) people choose LPs.

For what its worth, I am just fine with that. Home HiFi isn't about technical excellence, it is about what people like.

I have a fancy analogue watch. It keeps worse time than an electronic watch I got free with a gallon of oil. I choose to wear the analogue watch - just like those who listen to LPs.