Is Dolby Vision another fad?

[Series1boy]

Is this just another 'badge' the same as THX certified as is my current PDP?

i will be purchasing an OLED this year and I'm a big fan of panasonic and their new OLEDS are not Dolby Vision and wandered if this is another format that won't make that much difference.

what are your thoughts?

 

[macdiddy]

I am currently in the market for a new 4k tv to replace a (not very old 1080p) one but it seems everytime I have saved up enough for my ideal tv (a 65inch) then some new picture format comes along so then I have to decide shall I buy my ideal tv or wait another six months to a year for tv's with Dolby vision to come out.

I really don't want to buy another tv in two or three years time.

*unknw*

 

[Series1boy]

yeah same here. My VT is only 3.5 years old, but by Christmas would like to have an OLED in place and I apprecaite things are changing every 5 minutes, but is DV really going to make that much difference on a TV of up to 65"...?

 

[Simon Lucas]

As it stands, it seems broadcasters will use HDR10 (which is open-source) as a standard. Dolby Vision is built outwards from an HDR10 base.

If you're considering a 4K Blu-ray player (and 4K Blu-ray discs, obviously) you'll find the HDR effect even more pronounced with DV discs than with HDR10 alone. It seems likely DV will be more prevalent on discs than as a broadcast standard*.

Lately seems possibe that upgrades to Dolby Vision might be achievable via firmware updates, so TVs with sufficient processing power could adopt Dolby Vision in the future.

There's more (and greater coherence) here: https://www.whathifi.com/advice/dolby-vision-hdr-everything-you-need-to-know

(*things do change though, don't they?)

 

[Series1boy]

Thank you Simon for the link to more information on DV.

like I said, I'm not after a new TV now, but will be in the late Autumn/early winter and may be there will be more information from Panasonic if their 2017 TVs can receive a firmware update for DV. Failing, that it ,ya be an LG but I do prefer the calibration controls on the Panny's and their processing seems to be a lot more robust than the LGS, despite them the same panels..

 

[Deleted member 2457]

I am not a fan of Dolby Vision, I bought Despicable Me One and Two and put it on my Oppo 203 (after doing the firmware update), and to say I was disappointed was an understatement! The picture to me looked like DVD/Blu-ray. You couldn't see the difference like on HDR on the Oppo, but when I forced the Oppo to just do HDR again (having not tried it first time), the HDR picture looked much better.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Short answer: yes.

Unless Dolby licenses the technology cheaply enough that all content producers, manufacturers and broadcasters adopt it - like Dolby noise reduction 40 years ago - none of the above will adopt it. All of the above have more interest in an open, international, standard than any that they have to license from any third party.

After all, you wouldn't buy a CD that you could only play, for example only, on a two thousand Pound Naim CD player, and not on a fifty quid Argos special, would you?

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Oh wait.

Some people still buy Apple computers, so what do I know? 🙂

 

[ellisdj]

Dolby Vision and HDR are one in the same - not completely different. They are both methods of delivering high dynamic range and a Wide Colour Gamut.

Dolby Vision is a fixed standard so the mastering, colouring, and production has to follow a set of rules to how it will look and how TV's etc will code it to display it.

HDR10 is open source so the manufacturer can do as they will with it. Dolby Visions licences need to be paid

In very bright TV sets - i.e. LCD that do stupid brightness and dont clip the peak higlights of the new gamma curve there will be little difference by all accounts.

However on TV's that dont go very bright and therefore will clip the peak brightness aka OLED then Dolby Vision provides a fixed method of scaling for that TV for that content for improved PQ.

Which is why your seeing Dolby Vision on OLED and not LED or QLED same thing imo and really its a good thing as well for OLED users going foward as more films gets mastered in 4000 nits as OLED has no chance of delivering that. I think they must know that hence the adoption of DV early.

However I think its going to need a chance to develop and come out properly - whenever old films are remastered they are never as wonderful as films actually brought out new and that go through the full mastering at the new standards.

If Disney films are coming out in Dolby Vision chances are thats when its going to be done well.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

^ re your last statement:

I thought it was a bit "Mickey Mouse" all along... ;-)

 

[ellisdj]

I have watched Moana about 20 times I say because of my kids but its very much a guilty pleasure of mine. Emotionally gets me everytime

Now thats a prime example movie of where HDR and WCG is going to bring that film to life - but they are def going to master these films at 4000nits, I am pretty sure, because all the sunshine, then the lava - then the contrast of nightime scenes and the other bits where extreme contrast will have a massive effect - its made for it really.

So think about it going forward - is OLED ever going to be able to hit 4k Nits - maybe but LED is going to get there much quicker.

Depending on how LG / Sony / Panny implement their HDR10 by comparison

I think its worth waiting out longer on the big TV purchase front - if your putting down £3k+ on a Panny OLED with no DV just to see if the benefit of DV is worth it with newer content

 

[strapped for cash]

DV's importance is overstated (though I guess it'd be nice to have).

In recent years, technology manufacturers, developers and licensing companies recognised the importance of inter-format compatibility, largely negating issues with earlier format wars from an industry and consumer standpoint.

In practice, this means DV encoded software has an HDR core, meaning you can watch DV content on all HDR-specced hardware.

The real questions then become:

1. Does DV offer notable improvements over HDR?

2. What value should we place on any differences?

Regarding question one, the jury's out, since there isn't enough available software to conduct meaningful comparison, though any differences won't be significant. The care given equipment is also a factor, since a poorly calibrated TV will render any differences between DV and HDR immaterial.*

On the second question, HDR content, of whatever format, will comprise a small proportion of viewing for a good while yet. There may be broadcast experiments, as with 3-D, but the substantial majority of broadcast output will be SDR for many years (indeed, the majority of broadcast output is still in heavily compressed standard definition).

Furthermore, regrading older films in HDR is of questionable purpose and benefit (though there's a good debate on this on AVF right now), meaning the number of titles any of us are likely to watch in HDR will, in all probability, be limited to films now shot with high dynamic range in mind. On this point, theatrical technology is lagging behind home video in terms of dynamic range, while filmmakers shoot almost exclusively with theatrical projection in mind.

In summary, I wouldn't make DV compatibility the cornerstone of any television purchase.

If I was buying an OLED television, I'd lean toward the Panasonic EZ952, despite its lack of DV compatibility, though I'd wait for post-Christmas discounts.

** On this point, WHF's Panasonic EZ952 review is problematic, since the television was incorrectly set up, making any valid appraisal of image quality impossible.

 

[ellisdj]

I think the relvance goes wider strapped - pretty soon the gap between OLED and LED in terms of peak brighntess is going to be massive.

So LED will be hitting 4k nits I reckon in 2 years ish and OLED wont be.

I am pretty sure DV has better implications on poorer performing displays - I am not saying OLED is poor performing but it wont be performing to the spec of the master for some time / ever.

Having messed around what I can only assume you get is massively blown out whites with crushed detail - but if you lower the Brightness to get the image back you lose the pop of the image so you cant do that - so you have to suffer the blown out image. Ala Gels comments on Despicable me as a guess its lowererd the peak brightness to get the detail back with HDR10 being brighter but likely blown out as well. Its just a guess.

So if DV has a system for maximising a displays brightness while keeping the detail then it may prove a real winner for OLED displays and I was thinking projectors as well

 

[strapped for cash]

@EllisDJ

I get what you're saying.

DV may help maximise OLED's performance, but HDR algorithms/implementations already differ from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from model to model.

In other words, in principle, better HDR performance can be implemented through firmware updates, even without DV licensing, which could offset any differences or advantages you mention among OLED TVs.

More importantly, in my view, the great majority of viewing will be SDR for the next three to four years, at which point videophiles will be looking to move on from current models.

For me, and others may disagree, HD SDR is still more important than 4K and high dynamic range, and the EZ952 is the new reference for SDR performance.

In addition, LCD's weaknesses, which impact on both SDR and HDR performance, are still more troubling overall than any difficulties related to OLED peak brightness.

If choosing between 2017 OLEDs, there's a counterargument to everything I've said, since SDR performance is similar across manufacturers (all of whom are of course are using the same LG panels). As a purist, though, I'd still choose the EZ952's out-of-the-box and post-calibration accuracy.

 

[ellisdj]

I still think need to wait and see what it offers before putting down a big chunk on a display without it

 

[bigboss]

I don't think it's going to be easy for LEDs to hit peak brightness of 4000 nits without compromising deep blacks for HDR.

 

[ellisdj]

As the FALD zones go up it probably will be

 

[strapped for cash]

I'm in many ways with BB on this one.

FALD is only so effective, however many zones are in play, and dimmable zones will never be as precise as a self emissive, pixel-by-pixel approach.

There's also a relationship between dynamic range and native contrast, and LCD's relatively limited native contrast, even using a full array backlight, means issues will appear more distracting the brighter localised zones become.

The same is true of edge-lit LED technology-- the more you ramp-up brightness (nits), the more difficult it becomes to disguise problems inherent to the technology.

You can only push things so far.

 

[bigboss]

Not to forget, the tougher energy regulations for TVs. So there are challenges for manufacturers.

 

[ellisdj]

yes totally, I am not saying whats better here just the overall situaiton - until a display can accurately display an image at 4k nits then noone knows just how good that is for HDR - I have a feeling it will be mega.

So as long as stuff is being mastered at that level it depends on the "scaling" to use a word quality of the display to handle an image it cant actually accurately reproduce.

All I was saying is DV might have that nailed down better than the manufacturers own bods and its going to be a long time until you see that level of brightness from OLED if ever. It could be for the whole technology life span so I think its worth waiting and seeing before jumping in.

I am saying it now Disney have made their announcement as they have the power to change the industry on mass.

Panasonic will just adapt as put DV in nexy years models if it suits their business model better but someone who bought big without it is the one who then comes up short.

You still will have a great TV obviously but as its still in the midst of chance out there its worth waiting a bit atm to be sure.

 

[strapped for cash]

Who knows what regulatory framework (or lack thereof) will be in place a few years down the line?

That's a slightly flippant comment and I take your point. Even if the UK conducts a bonfire of "red tape" (and the US are leading the way), manufacturers will produce models for the global market, where tougher regulatory standards should remain in place.

 

[strapped for cash]

All I was saying is DV might have that nailed down better than the manufacturers own bods and its going to be a long time until you see that level of brightness from OLED if ever.

Sure, but I stand by my previous comment -- namely that different manufacturers implement different HDR algorithms, so individual manufacturer approaches to HDR could match or even better DV implementations.

That of course doesn't mean it's not sensible to "wait and see," though again I think this is overcautious given how little HDR content we'll be watching over the next few years.

 

[ellisdj]

It will be Samsung, Panasonic and Hisense vs DV by the looks of things as it stands.

Its going to be interesting and cleverly a point of contention to generate chat, rumour mill, strong opinion all good for advertising 🙂

 

[strapped for cash]

as long as stuff is being mastered at [4,000 nits] it depends on the "scaling" to use a word quality of the display to handle an image it cant actually accurately reproduce.

The crazy thing is that no technology can currently handle anything approaching that kind of dynamic range, including theatrical projection equipment.

This means content is being mastered to an entirely different specification from all equipment used to view it, with little prospect of display or projection technology catching up in the short-to-medium term.

Looked at that way, the whole debate becomes at least a little absurd.

 

[bigboss]

It will be Samsung, Panasonic and Hisense vs DV by the looks of things as it stands.

Manufacturers vs licence issuer for money.......it's not going to be easy for Dolby.