Is digital more faff than analogue?

[Dave_]

One of the reasons some people, including myself, don't do turntables is all the "black magic" behind it.

Tone arms, platters, plinths, carts, styluses, MM vs MC, motors, power supplies, direct drive or belt driven, tracking force, anti skating, cart alignment, slip mats, 45 rpm, 33 1/3rpm, phono stages, levelling, racks and isolation, vinyl cleaning, etc.

The list is long, upgrades are endless, each has many options it's all finicky

So how about digital...

Here's a thing... I'm beginning to think it's no better

USB, Coax, Spdif, Synchronous vs Asynchronous, lossless vs lossy, CD, SACD, FLAC, mp3, WAV, 16 bit vs 24 bit, DAC, Reclockers, upsamplers, DSP, PC, Streamers, linear power suppies, USB Regenerators, DLNA, Airplay, MQA, DSD, FPGA, NOS, transport, LAN, Bluetooth, Wifi, NAS, different DAC chips, sampling rates, downloads, rips, etc.

And that's all before you decide how to operate the bloody thing (apps) and what to operate it with (phone, tablet, remote, PC, TV...)

It feels like as much hassle if not more than analogue. Constant compatibility issues, inability to freely upgrade, nests of cables with questionable results...

All this advancement... and for what exactly?

Digital isn't a faff at all.

Its terminally ignorant audiophiles looking to solve problems that don't exist that's the issue..

 

[Craig M.]

Digital isn't a faff at all.

Its terminally ignorant audiophiles looking to solve problems that don't exist that's the issue..

Bingo.

 

[ellisdj]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth.

 

[insider9]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth. 

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

 

[Craig M.]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth.

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

Are you just being facetious or is that serious? Bit perfect is bit perfect, the only other thing is a decent DAC with good jitter rejection, which needn’t be expensive. All the other stuff is for people looking for a problem where one doesn’t exist.

 

[insider9]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth. 

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

Are you just being facetious or is that serious?  Bit perfect is bit perfect, the only other thing is a decent DAC with good jitter rejection, which needn’t be expensive.  All the other stuff is for people looking for a problem where one doesn’t exist.

*biggrin*

 

[Andrewjvt]

Possibly are failed mechanics, engineers, scientists, builders, plumbers
The list goes on.
Seriously though
if tweaking is your thing then great as your not hurting anyone and it's enjoyable.
But when people are taking out loans on the advice of serial tweakers then it's very bad.

Here's an example.

This dac is as good as a dac costing much more but you need special isolation feet, linear power supply and a modified pc for it to sound good.
My point is if you instead by the costlier dac, would you still.need the isolation, power supply and pc?

I bet you would

 

[Alantiggger]

One of the reasons some people, including myself, don't do turntables is all the "black magic" behind it.

Tone arms, platters, plinths, carts, styluses, MM vs MC, motors, power supplies, direct drive or belt driven, tracking force, anti skating, cart alignment, slip mats, 45 rpm, 33 1/3rpm, phono stages, levelling, racks and isolation, vinyl cleaning, etc.

The list is long, upgrades are endless, each has many options it's all finicky

So how about digital...

Here's a thing... I'm beginning to think it's no better

USB, Coax, Spdif, Synchronous vs Asynchronous, lossless vs lossy, CD, SACD, FLAC, mp3, WAV, 16 bit vs 24 bit, DAC, Reclockers, upsamplers, DSP, PC, Streamers, linear power suppies, USB Regenerators, DLNA, Airplay, MQA, DSD, FPGA, NOS, transport, LAN, Bluetooth, Wifi, NAS, different DAC chips, sampling rates, downloads, rips, etc.

And that's all before you decide how to operate the bloody thing (apps) and what to operate it with (phone, tablet, remote, PC, TV...)

It feels like as much hassle if not more than analogue. Constant compatibility issues, inability to freely upgrade, nests of cables with questionable results...

All this advancement... and for what exactly?

Think you summed it up very nicely in the last two sentences *biggrin*

Well, better/clearer sound AND less HISSSSSSSSSSSSssssssss, just for a start *yahoo*

 

[Dave_]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth.

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio.html

https://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html

 

[Tonestar1]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth.

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

Unfortunaltely the golden ears brigade are unwilling to listen to science. To quote Ricky Gervias.... You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. Truth is not a democracy. It doesn't give a **** what you "believe".

It saddens me to witness the damage that this type of nonsense does to the industry. It's very off-putting to prospective enthusiasts if they see ******** being pedalled as fact every day on forums. No wonder the hifi trade is on it’s arse and only catering to a dwindling customer base.

 

[lindsayt]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth.

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

Are you just being facetious or is that serious? Bit perfect is bit perfect, the only other thing is a decent DAC with good jitter rejection, which needn’t be expensive. All the other stuff is for people looking for a problem where one doesn’t exist.

Craig M, are you aware that in your system you probably have over 50 separate active amplification devices between your source and your speaker drivers? Please go ahead and check the circuit for your 4th order active analogue crossovers. How many and what type of op amps you have in the signal path.

Which makes your system way more complicated than most.

Just because the complication is hidden inside your speaker cabinet in a neat physical package, doesn't mean to say it's not complicated.

 

[ellisdj]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth. 

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio.html

https://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html

It's very interesting reading especially the bits where the reviewer said it sounded terrible and it only sounded decent with a linear power supply funny that

 

[andyjm]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth.

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio.html

https://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html

It's very interesting reading especially the bits where the reviewer said it sounded terrible and it only sounded decent with a linear power supply funny that

I never got around to finishing my series on power supplies, but one thing a linear power supply isn't is linear. There seems to be some sort of SMPS bad, linear good, thing that goes around on these forums, with little or no understanding of the underlying principles. The fact that a delta sigma DAC or a class D amp is effectively a SMPS somehow gets lost in these discussions.

Back when squeezebox were still going, the designer Sean Adams was quite active on their forum. There was a school of though that replacing the SMPS wall wart supply improved the sound quality of the squeezebox Touch. Sean pointed out that all the supplies internal to the Touch were derived from on-board switching regulators, and replacing the perfectly good wall wart made absolutely no difference. This didn't stop an active market in 'linear' supplies for the Touch or 'believers' singing their praises.

This isn't to say that there aren't poorly designed SMPS out there, and that replacing a badly designed SMPS can't improve sound quality. That may be true, but it has nothing to do with SMPS vs Linear.

 

[Andrewjvt]

If that was the case every single digital system would play every single song in a glorious audio nirvana fashion - that couldnt be any futher from the truth. 

From Chromecast Audio inbuilt dac or a Raspberry Pi streamer.

http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio.html

https://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html

It's very interesting reading especially the bits where the reviewer said it sounded terrible and it only sounded decent with a linear power supply funny that

I never got around to finishing my series on power supplies, but one thing a linear power supply isn't is linear.  There seems to be some sort of SMPS bad, linear good, thing that goes around on these forums, with little or no understanding of the underlying principles.  The fact that a delta sigma DAC or a class D amp is effectively a SMPS somehow gets lost in these discussions.

Back when squeezebox were still going, the designer Sean Adams was quite active on their forum.  There was a school of though that replacing the SMPS wall wart supply improved the sound quality of the squeezebox Touch.  Sean pointed out that all the supplies internal to the Touch were derived from on-board switching regulators, and replacing the perfectly good wall wart made absolutely no difference.  This didn't stop an active market in 'linear' supplies for the Touch or 'believers' singing their praises.

This isn't to say that there aren't poorly designed SMPS out there, and that replacing a badly designed SMPS can't improve sound quality.  That may be true, but it has nothing to do with SMPS vs Linear.

Many cases the smps is actually lower noise than the linear supply.
I can post a link from benchmark but don't have time.
But will later

Insider: remember I told you I may start a thread that will make ww3?
This is what it was about.

More 'audiophille' osd bs

 

[chebby]

Back when squeezebox were still going, the designer Sean Adams was quite active on their forum. There was a school of though that replacing the SMPS wall wart supply improved the sound quality of the squeezebox Touch. Sean pointed out that all the supplies internal to the Touch were derived from on-board switching regulators, and replacing the perfectly good wall wart made absolutely no difference. This didn't stop an active market in 'linear' supplies for the Touch or 'believers' singing their praises.

Thinking of the power of the ‘woo-woo’ merchants on this forum (the power to shout down science, and established technology), I can easily envisage the advice from a product’s actual designer being shouted down by some un-qualified tosser with those immortal words ... “science doesn’t know everything”. (Yeah, try that one when advising your next surgeon or airline pilot on how to do their job!)

 

[MajorFubar]

Back when squeezebox were still going, the designer Sean Adams was quite active on their forum. There was a school of though that replacing the SMPS wall wart supply improved the sound quality of the squeezebox Touch. Sean pointed out that all the supplies internal to the Touch were derived from on-board switching regulators, and replacing the perfectly good wall wart made absolutely no difference. This didn't stop an active market in 'linear' supplies for the Touch or 'believers' singing their praises.

Thinking of the power of the ‘woo-woo’ merchants on this forum (the power to shout down science, and established technology), I can easily envisage the advice from a product’s actual designer being shouted down by some un-qualified tosser with those immortal words ... “science doesn’t know everything”. (Yeah, try that one when advising your next surgeon or airline pilot on how to do their job!)

We've kind of already had this, with people readily disputing the Nyquist-Shannon proven theorem, only difference being the engineers are dead and can't defend their corner.

 

[muljao]

I did wonder why on eBay for example you can buy power supplies for an arcam irdac ii. The power supply is about half the price of the actual DAC. I don't think it's Arcam sponsored/approved. Surely a company like arcam would not release their DAC if they thought the power supply wasn't up to scratch

 

[Craig M.]

Craig M, are you aware that in your system you probably have over 50 separate active amplification devices between your source and your speaker drivers? Please go ahead and check the circuit for your 4th order active analogue crossovers. How many and what type of op amps you have in the signal path.

Which makes your system way more complicated than most.

Just because the complication is hidden inside your speaker cabinet in a neat physical package, doesn't mean to say it's not complicated.

And what does that have to do with what I wrote? I’ll answer that for you, sweet FA.

 

[Electro]

Why does nobody mention the type or quality of the analog output stage of any digital player, dac or streamer ?

It probably has far more influence on the sound quality than any type of digital converter or chip used and is often overlooked and neglected in favor of the latest wizz bang chip set.

I have put on my crash helmet in anticipation of the $hit storm with bricks added this opinion may cause . *shok* *biggrin*

Edit.

The day I sold my turntable and all the power supplies and phono stages, cartriges, was a real liberation for me, no more faffing about to try and make it sound as good as digital .

 

[ellisdj]

The day I sold my turntable and all the power supplies and phono stages, cartriges, was a real liberation for me, no more faffing about to try and make it sound as good as digital .

I didnt know that was ever a thing - its ironic now everyone spends all their money trying to make digital sound like vinyl - you should have kept it all electro 🙂

 

[davedotco]

Why does nobody mention the type or quality of the analog output stage of any digital player, dac or streamer ?

It probably has far more influence on the sound quality than any type of digital converter or chip used and is often overlooked and neglected in favor of the latest wizz bang chip set.

I have put on my crash helmet in anticipation of the $hit storm with bricks added this opinion may cause . *shok* *biggrin*

Edit.

The day I sold my turntable and all the power supplies and phono stages, cartriges, was a real liberation for me, no more faffing about to try and make it sound as good as digital .

Now, in theory at least, a simple output stage that, effectively buffers the output and provides a little gain if required, should be completely transparent. If the manufacturer can not implement that, then he has no business building hi-fi.

That said, dacs can and do sound different, though I remain very sceptical as to just how much that is. On the few occassions I have compared dacs in controlled conditions, the differences have been very hard to pick, even in extreme cases.

 

[lindsayt]

And what does that have to do with what I wrote? I’ll answer that for you, sweet FA.

You said "Are you just being facetious or is that serious? Bit perfect is bit perfect, the only other thing is a decent DAC with good jitter rejection, which needn’t be expensive. All the other stuff is for people looking for a problem where one doesn’t exist."

So it's OK for the designer of your equipment to add complication to your system where no problem needed to have existed?

But it's not OK for enthusiasts to add complication to their systems where a problem may or may not have existed?

For example upgrading the power supply of a DAC, may or may not be worthwhile depending on the analogue section of the DAC and the existing power supply.

You are critising people for making their systems more complicated when you have a system that is already over-complicated to begin with.

The expression about greenhouses and throwing stones comes to mind.

 

[Electro]

The day I sold my turntable and all the power supplies and phono stages, cartriges, was a real liberation for me, no more faffing about to try and make it sound as good as digital .

I didnt know that was ever a thing - its ironic now everyone spends all their money trying to make digital sound like vinyl - you should have kept it all electro 🙂

Nah it was always more hassle than it was worth !

The penny dropped for me many years ago when a mate plugged his sony walkman portable Cd unit into the back of my amp and played the Brothers in Arms Cd and it was almost as good as my multi thousand pound turntable setup.

To me digital sounds so much more life like and far closer to live music .

I still kept the turntable for many years after that but rarely used it until I plucked up the courage to sell it all.

I still have 500 or so LP,s in the loft but I very much doubt that they will ever be played again.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Definitely not, but just like putting together an analogue system, it pays dividends to take a holistic view and consider the partnering equipment when selecting a piece. You would not put partner a moving magnet cartridge with a moving coil phono stage. Similarly, it pays to consider the DAC when selecting a streamer and vice versa.

The great thing about digital, at least streaming or computer-based audio systems, is that once they are set up and running optimally, they will run and run. Your turntable is continually wearing out both itself and your record collection.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Why does nobody mention the type or quality of the analog output stage of any digital player, dac or streamer ?

It probably has far more influence on the sound quality than any type of digital converter or chip used and is often overlooked and neglected in favor of the latest wizz bang chip set.

I have put on my crash helmet in anticipation of the $hit storm with bricks added this opinion may cause . *shok*  *biggrin*

Edit.

The day I sold my turntable and all the power supplies and phono stages, cartriges, was a real liberation for me, no more faffing about to try and make it sound as good as digital .

I think because many are using digital out to another dac