Is digital more faff than analogue?

[insider9]

One of the reasons some people, including myself, don't do turntables is all the "black magic" behind it.

Tone arms, platters, plinths, carts, styluses, MM vs MC, motors, power supplies, direct drive or belt driven, tracking force, anti skating, cart alignment, slip mats, 45 rpm, 33 1/3rpm, phono stages, levelling, racks and isolation, vinyl cleaning, etc.

The list is long, upgrades are endless, each has many options it's all finicky

So how about digital...

Here's a thing... I'm beginning to think it's no better

USB, Coax, Spdif, Synchronous vs Asynchronous, lossless vs lossy, CD, SACD, FLAC, mp3, WAV, 16 bit vs 24 bit, DAC, Reclockers, upsamplers, DSP, PC, Streamers, linear power suppies, USB Regenerators, DLNA, Airplay, MQA, DSD, FPGA, NOS, transport, LAN, Bluetooth, Wifi, NAS, different DAC chips, sampling rates, downloads, rips, etc.

And that's all before you decide how to operate the bloody thing (apps) and what to operate it with (phone, tablet, remote, PC, TV...)

It feels like as much hassle if not more than analogue. Constant compatibility issues, inability to freely upgrade, nests of cables with questionable results...

All this advancement... and for what exactly?

 

[newlash09]

One of the reasons some people, including myself, don't do turntables is all the "black magic" behind it.

Tone arms, platters, plinths, carts, styluses, MM vs MC, motors, power supplies, direct drive or belt driven, tracking force, anti skating, cart alignment, slip mats, 45 rpm, 33 1/3rpm, phono stages, levelling, racks and isolation, vinyl cleaning, etc.

The list is long, upgrades are endless, each has many options it's all finicky

So how about digital...

Here's a thing... I'm beginning to think it's no better

USB, Coax, Spdif, Synchronous vs Asynchronous, lossless vs lossy, CD, SACD, FLAC, mp3, WAV, 16 bit vs 24 bit, DAC, Reclockers, upsamplers, DSP, PC, Streamers, linear power suppies, USB Regenerators, DLNA, Airplay, MQA, DSD, FPGA, NOS, transport, LAN, Bluetooth, Wifi, NAS, different DAC chips, sampling rates, downloads, rips, etc.

And that's all before you decide how to operate the bloody thing (apps) and what to operate it with (phone, tablet, remote, PC, TV...)

It feels like as much hassle if not more than analogue. Constant compatibility issues, inability to freely upgrade, nests of cables with questionable results...

All this advancement... and for what exactly?

Are only for those who believe that 'bits or not just bits'. The other half are really happy with what they have. So choose your camp wisely

 

[Deleted member 108165]

One of the reasons some people, including myself, don't do turntables is all the "black magic" behind it.

Tone arms, platters, plinths, carts, styluses, MM vs MC, motors, power supplies, direct drive or belt driven, tracking force, anti skating, cart alignment, slip mats, 45 rpm, 33 1/3rpm, phono stages, levelling, racks and isolation, vinyl cleaning, etc.

The list is long, upgrades are endless, each has many options it's all finicky

So how about digital...

Here's a thing... I'm beginning to think it's no better

USB, Coax, Spdif, Synchronous vs Asynchronous, lossless vs lossy, CD, SACD, FLAC, mp3, WAV, 16 bit vs 24 bit, DAC, Reclockers, upsamplers, DSP, PC, Streamers, linear power suppies, USB Regenerators, DLNA, Airplay, MQA, DSD, FPGA, NOS, transport, LAN, Bluetooth, Wifi, NAS, different DAC chips, sampling rates, downloads, rips, etc.

And that's all before you decide how to operate the bloody thing (apps) and what to operate it with (phone, tablet, remote, PC, TV...)

It feels like as much hassle if not more than analogue. Constant compatibility issues, inability to freely upgrade, nests of cables with questionable results...

All this advancement... and for what exactly?

Think you summed it up very nicely in the last two sentences *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

I was into Vinyl from 75 to 92. I have had a Streamer for about 8 or 9 years.

I went with a Linn, which is pretty much a fit and forget answer. I also went with a RipNAS (with dBPoweramp), so you post your CD into the slot and it gets ripped and tagged in a few minutes and then spat out.

So I have pretty much made it as simple as it can be....especially for someone who hates computers with a vengence.

Compared to the endless faff with a Vinyl replay system...well there is no comparison.

 

[MajorFubar]

Vinyl is a faff, it can be an enjoyable faff, but it's still a faff. Literally everything does make a difference. But IMO digital is only a faff if you want it to be. Sure there are variables, but the biggest by a country mile is the mastering quality of the file you are playing. Everything else either makes barely any difference at all (eg difference between a great £100 DAC and a great £1000 DAC, compared to the same expenditure on a TT) or is mumbo jumbo pseudo science pedalled by merchants with a vested interest in selling foo to gullible people (exhibit A: audiofool LAN cables). Buying into the latter is wholly voluntary.

 

[muljao]

It depends. I'm geeky enough but think people go way to far with all the resolution stuff.

If you take a photograph it's said that we can perceive 300 pixels per inch printed. So your 12x8 print can be taken with a 50mp camera and be downsized to approx 9mp and experts say both prints will look identical.

There has to be this kind of comparison with music. I listen to spotify and I'm mostly happy with it. Sometimes with dense music I think it might be slightly lacking. Certainly I was well happy with CDs for many years. I'm not sure the bit rate of CDs , 16 bit 44khz rings a bell. I know for a fact that CDs are good enough for me. I'd believe in a high end system if you played a cd and a high Res file I won't know which is what if blind tested.

So this makes digital very simple for me. Cd quality flac files is the most I need from any DAC. Mqa, dsd, ABC- none of this matters a diddy to me so compatability issues are very few.

I would like if Spotify streamed cd quality though.

Sit back, enjoy the music

 

[Al ears]

One of the reasons some people, including myself, don't do turntables is all the "black magic" behind it.

Tone arms, platters, plinths, carts, styluses, MM vs MC, motors, power supplies, direct drive or belt driven, tracking force, anti skating, cart alignment, slip mats, 45 rpm, 33 1/3rpm, phono stages, levelling, racks and isolation, vinyl cleaning, etc.

The list is long, upgrades are endless, each has many options it's all finicky

So how about digital...

Here's a thing... I'm beginning to think it's no better

USB, Coax, Spdif, Synchronous vs Asynchronous, lossless vs lossy, CD, SACD, FLAC, mp3, WAV, 16 bit vs 24 bit, DAC, Reclockers, upsamplers, DSP, PC, Streamers, linear power suppies, USB Regenerators, DLNA, Airplay, MQA, DSD, FPGA, NOS, transport, LAN, Bluetooth, Wifi, NAS, different DAC chips, sampling rates, downloads, rips, etc.

And that's all before you decide how to operate the bloody thing (apps) and what to operate it with (phone, tablet, remote, PC, TV...)

It feels like as much hassle if not more than analogue. Constant compatibility issues, inability to freely upgrade, nests of cables with questionable results...

All this advancement... and for what exactly?

Think you summed it up very nicely in the last two sentences *biggrin*

Get an Oppo 105....... sorted!

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm not sure the bit rate of CDs , 16 bit 44khz rings a bell. I know for a fact that CDs are good enough for me. I'd believe in a high end system if you played a cd and a high Res file I won't know which is what if blind tested.

Correct on all counts, providing the 16/44 version is a downsample of the hi-res file and not a different master. The fly in the ointment is some DACs just sound better their highest sample rates, my old HRT II+ was one of them. I put it down to less-severe filtering at higher bitrates, but that's just conjecture, I never knew the real reason.

 

[iMark]

IMHO most analogue upgrades lead to better results. This has always been the case with record players, tape decks, cassette decks etc. Even better source material like better LP pressings or better quality tape lead to better sound. A lot of tweaking involved. Setting up a record player has always been a daunting task for a lot of people, starting with balancing the tone arm as an example.

Then came along the CD. You would buy a player, plug it into the amp with RCA-cables and that was that. Nothing to tweak except for some people who would buy other RCA-cables. Sometimes a CD player would sound quite different from another player. But you couldn't tweak the players.

With the advent of higher resolution audio and streaming and audio being released on formats like SACD, DVD-A and Bluray Audio things have become rather muddled. In practice it means that we tend to opt for convinience. It's very rare that I will pick an SACD and put it in the player. Most our listening is now done by using my iPhone as either a remote control for the iTunes library or Spotify Connect. And it's still good fun to put on an LP.

The CD only era was probably the easiest era in terms of lack of choice and simplicity.

 

[ellisdj]

for me digitall all the effort goes in up front - then you can just settle in for a long term listening session without the disruption of keep getting up every 20 minutes to change something.

I think the reason people prefer vinyl is while they are up every 20 minutes making changes they can fill up their glass with a cold one at the same time

 

[insider9]

for me digitall all the effort goes in up front - then you can just settle in for a long term listening session without the disruption of keep getting up every 20 minutes to change something.

 

I think the reason people prefer vinyl is while they are up every 20 minutes making changes they can fill up their glass with a cold one at the same time  

But I'm talking about the amount of effort. At enthusiast level. People not bothered with optimising things would not touch turntables either.

 

[insider9]

Vinyl is a faff, it can be an enjoyable faff, but it's still a faff. Literally everything does make a difference. But IMO digital is only a faff if you want it to be. Sure there are variables, but the biggest by a country mile is the mastering quality of the file you are playing. Everything else either makes barely any difference at all (eg difference between a great £100 DAC and a great £1000 DAC, compared to the same expenditure on a TT) or is mumbo jumbo pseudo science pedalled by merchants with a vested interest in selling foo to gullible people (exhibit A: audiofool LAN cables). Buying into the latter is wholly voluntary.

I agree vinyl is a faff. But I'm dreading as digital is beginning to be one too. Cost aside.

Say you upgrade a DAC, not only you need to consider the usual sampling rates and connections but the first thing you will be asked is if you run it of stock power supply... Why not linear? Next are you up sampling, using reclockers, Jitterbugs? Why are you using USB not Coax? Are you running Windows or Mac or maybe Linux...

I agree there is a lot of nonsense around digital playback but there are things that do improve sound quality. So what if the differences aren't as big as upgrades to turntable.

 

[ellisdj]

Surely the bit your dredding should also be the fun part - messing tinkering then enjoying / analysing and then tinkering again until ultimatey everything sounds perfect.

Thats the hobby part - in carp fishing you join a new lake waste hours getting it wrong then eventually get it right only to realise on the next visit you didnt get it totally right and there is still more to learn.

 

[lindsayt]

You can keep vinyl & digital simple or you can make it as complicated as you want.

Owning an EMT 950 or 948 is as simple as vinyl gets. Plug and play.

 

[chebby]

Owning an EMT 950 or 948 is as simple as vinyl gets. Plug and play.

Cheap too ...

clicky

 

[insider9]

You should really see what my mate has come up with to understand.

A while ago his setup looked like this.

Minipc connected to Chord Mojo. As he insisted on using a proper USB cable he needed to use an adapter to go into mini USB on the Mojo. He also used Audioquest Jitterbug on Minipc end and Uptone Regen on DAC end.

Then the Mojo output is mini jack so in order to use this it's either an adapter to two RCA or stereo mini jack to two RCA cable.

Then there was a matter of charging it...

But by now you probably see why it reminded both of us a vinyl setup.

 

[cheeseboy]

You should really see what my mate has come up with to understand.

A while ago his setup looked like this.

Minipc connected to Chord Mojo. As he insisted on using a proper USB cable he needed to use an adapter to go into mini USB on the Mojo. He also used Audioquest Jitterbug on Minipc end and Uptone Regen on DAC end.

Then the Mojo output is mini jack so in order to use this it's either an adapter to two RCA or stereo mini jack to two RCA cable.

Then there was a matter of charging it...

But by now you probably see why it reminded both of us a vinyl setup.

sounds more like a matter for pre-planning. Before buying something, make sure it's compatible instead of doing it the other way round imho.

Like other people have said though, it's as complicated as you want to make it.

 

[insider9]

You should really see what my mate has come up with to understand.

A while ago his setup looked like this.

Minipc connected to Chord Mojo. As he insisted on using a proper USB cable he needed to use an adapter to go into mini USB on the Mojo. He also used Audioquest Jitterbug on Minipc end and Uptone Regen on DAC end.

Then the Mojo output is mini jack so in order to use this it's either an adapter to two RCA or stereo mini jack to two RCA cable.

Then there was a matter of charging it...

But by now you probably see why it reminded both of us a vinyl setup.

sounds more like a matter for pre-planning.  Before buying something, make sure it's compatible instead of doing it the other way round imho.

Like other people have said though, it's as complicated as you want to make it.

It was exactly pre-planned. He needed something portable and happened to like the sound of it so much that also used it in his system.

 

[MajorFubar]

You should really see what my mate has come up with to understand.

A while ago his setup looked like this.

Minipc connected to Chord Mojo. As he insisted on using a proper USB cable he needed to use an adapter to go into mini USB on the Mojo. He also used Audioquest Jitterbug on Minipc end and Uptone Regen on DAC end.

Then the Mojo output is mini jack so in order to use this it's either an adapter to two RCA or stereo mini jack to two RCA cable.

Then there was a matter of charging it...

But by now you probably see why it reminded both of us a vinyl setup.

The world is full of people who want to make things more complicated than they need to be, because they like to tweak, and customize, and 'improve'. Even more than all of that, they like to be different, and they like to think their setup is special and unique, as result of their personal blood/sweat/tears and a lifetime of carefully studying all the variables.

Analogue pandered to the needs of the tweaking brigade fantastically. Then CDs came out. Two thirds of the population who'd never heard a better record player than their rich mate's B&O music centre were in their element because the sound quality was just phenominal, and they couldn't buy into the format fast enough.

But in contrast, the tweaking brigade with their custom built turntables worth tens of thousands of pounds HATED compact discs. Partly this was because this new-fangled thing threatened to undermine their hobby and their established way of life, but also partly because there was FA to **** about with: you put a disc in and it just played. That went against everything they thought hifi was about. How could Mr Tweaker sleep at night knowing his CD player sounded EXACTLY like George's down the street, because the bounder had only went and bought the same model and there's no way of customizing it? Scandalous.

So stuff was invented for these people to tweak again. Outboard DACs, upsamplers, reclockers, different power supplies, jitterbugs, audiophile-quality USB cables and LAN cables...to name but a few. The differences they make vary from minimal to sod all, but they keep the companies who make the products in business, and they keep Mr Tweaker happy because once again he can sleep peacefully knowing his digital front-end is now comfortably better than George's down the street. Happiness restored

 

[insider9]

You should really see what my mate has come up with to understand.

A while ago his setup looked like this.

Minipc connected to Chord Mojo. As he insisted on using a proper USB cable he needed to use an adapter to go into mini USB on the Mojo. He also used Audioquest Jitterbug on Minipc end and Uptone Regen on DAC end.

Then the Mojo output is mini jack so in order to use this it's either an adapter to two RCA or stereo mini jack to two RCA cable.

Then there was a matter of charging it...

But by now you probably see why it reminded both of us a vinyl setup.

The world is full of people who want to make things more complicated than they need to be, because they like to tweak, and customize, and 'improve'. Even more than all of that, they like to be different, and they like to think their setup is special and unique, as result of their personal blood/sweat/tears and a lifetime of carefully studying all the variables.

Analogue pandered to the needs of the tweaking brigade fantastically. Then CDs came out. Two thirds of the population who'd never heard a better record player than their rich mate's B&O music centre were in their element because the sound quality was just phenominal, and they couldn't buy into the format fast enough.

But in contrast, the tweaking brigade with their custom built turntables worth tens of thousands of pounds HATED compact discs. Partly this was because this new-fangled thing threatened to undermine their hobby and their established way of life, but also partly because there was FA to **** about with: you put a disc in and it just played. That went against everything they thought hifi was about. How could Mr Tweaker sleep at night knowing his CD player sounded EXACTLY like George's down the street, because the bounder had only went and bought the same model and there's no way of customizing it? Scandalous.

So stuff was invented for these people to tweak again. Outboard DACs, upsamplers, reclockers, different power supplies, jitterbugs, audiophile-quality USB cables and LAN cables...to name but a few. The differences they make vary from minimal to sod all, but they keep the companies who make the products in business, and they keep Mr Tweaker happy because once again he can sleep peacefully knowing his digital front-end is now comfortably better than George's down the street. Happiness restored

It was worth starting a thread just to read this. Brilliant *lol* And that's coming from a tweaker *biggrin*

 

[MajorFubar]

It was worth starting a thread just to read this. Brilliant *lol*

And that's coming from a tweaker *biggrin*

*biggrin* One aims to please.

 

[jmjones]

The tweakers thing is brilliant observation. I’ve been simplifying things over the last few years. Got rid of the phono stage, cassette deck, cd recorder, etc. Technology did however get its own back last week. My phone told me my car needed updating. World’s gone mad I tell you!!

 

[MajorFubar]

...Technology did however get its own back last week. My phone told me my car needed updating...

Most original excuse to buy a new car goes to JMJones :-D

 

[jmjones]

*wacko*I didn’t realise Android Auto was sales software. Someone told me last week that if it is free software then YOU are the product. Must be true!!

 

[lindsayt]

Owning an EMT 950 or 948 is as simple as vinyl gets. Plug and play.

Cheap too ...

clicky

Indeed.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/EMT-948-Weltklasse-Studio-Plattenspieler-broadcast-turntable-voll-funktion/282879445230?hash=item41dcedc8ee:g:VT4AAOSwICpaAE8W