is cd finished as a main music carrier or player

[PJPro]

the_lhc:
PJPro:JoelSim:[snip]....I used some tunes ripped lossless with error correction onto my MacBook and then streamed via AE/Airtunes into my DAC on my CDP. The streamed music wasn't as nice as the CD.
Were you streaming over a wireless network?

Because if you were it, you know, wouldn't make any difference.

Well, I happen to know that JoelSim is a bit of a cable man. Some Cat6 might level the playing field.

 

[JoelSim]

PJPro:the_lhc:
PJPro:JoelSim:[snip]....I used some tunes ripped lossless with error correction onto my MacBook and then streamed via AE/Airtunes into my DAC on my CDP. The streamed music wasn't as nice as the CD.Were you streaming over a wireless network?

Because if you were it, you know, wouldn't make any difference.

Well, I happen to know that JoelSim is a bit of a cable man. Some Cat6 might level the playing field.

Eh?

Yes it is a network of my Mac and my g/f's Mac, no servers or anything.

Decent cables already on the AE to DAC connector.

Basically the music wasn't as full sounding as CD.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a good number of CDs, and continue to buy them. I also buy studio master recordings from Linn, Gimell and HD Tracks.

I can't wait for a superior format to replace CDDA. We deserve more than this. The technology is there, and it shouldn't be that expensive. It was sad to see DVD-A go. I wish something like Bluray audio would come out with far superior resolution (and that the record companies and front end manufacturers would take advantage of this new format).

I buy DVD-A discs that I see on shelves (even if the material is only remotely interesting). I know that it's a dead format, but it's my way of letting the shop know that there is a market for high resolution audio. I don't have a SACD player, unfortunately.

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

Stagea I like your approach keep it going!

 

[The_Lhc]

Use the "quote" link johnny, makes life a lot easier...

johnnyblue:the_lhc:That's fairly meaningless to be honest, I shouldn't think many vinyl enthusiasts bother with singles anymore though, I certainly don't, there's far more titles being released on LP than there are 7" singles now.

I just quoted singles because I couldn't be bothered to look up album sales, I still can't be bothered but I trhink albums peaked in 1978. But obviously the same principle applies.Once upon a time several miilions of vinyl albums were sold every year, now considerably less than a million are.

Where did you pull that figure from? Predicted sales for 2009 were 2.8million units and that, I think was only for the USA. Granted it's tiny compared to CD but it's not "considerably less than a million".

"With respect that's a pretty meaningless comment. What does "computer based music" sound like? Are you suggesting it all sounds the same? I expect someone who's paid 10k for a Sooloos system and equivalently priced amps to play it through might have something to say about that. And I'd put my Sonos system up against any "ghettoblaster" or "mini system" and expect to win comfortably. "

Okay, to clarify,most music played through the average computer and desktop speakers probably sounds about as good or bad as music played through an average sub £100 cd/radio.

Yes but only if you actually listen to it through desktop speakers, I'm not going to comment on the general public but I'd guarantee that the majority of people HERE who listen to "computer-based audio" aren't using desktop speakers to do it, they're either outputting from the PC to a DAC and then their main system or, like me, they bypass the PC altogether. Either way the point remains that saying "computer based audio" has a particular sound is as nonsensical as saying all CD systems sound the same.

They might well, but I'd be willing to bet a significant proportion of them only use it for listening to the radio, like they do now.

I've no idea what your point is there.

Exactly what I said, people might end up having to buy DAB radios with internal storage and online streaming capability but I'd be willing to bet that most people won't use the additional functions and just treat it as a radio (although I don't think they will all be buying those devices, a basic radio, even a DAB one, is always going to sell, people don't like paying for features they don't think they're going to use).

 

[The_Lhc]

Stagea:I wish something like Bluray audio would come out with far superior resolution

It already is, have a look at Andrew's blog about the new CA universal disc player, he mentions Blu-ray audio only discs there.

 

[chebby]

Yes.

People do seem to like comparing the 'lowest common denominator' of computer based music/downloads with CD replay on equipment made by specialist manufacturers.

Trouble is that even the 'lowest common denominator' stuff - like iPods with compressed iTunes downloads - is starting to get pretty respectable when plugged into something like a £140 Onkyo ND-S1 transport with a £150 - £250 DAC.

A £138 iPod Nano 16GB (5 stars) an Onkyo transport (5 stars) can pass a direct/unconverted digital signal to a decent DAC in the hifi and be indistinguishable from CD to the majority of people. Substitute the Nano for a 160GB Classic (with room for an entire lossless collection) and the difference becomes negligible if comparing to a CD player costing the same as the iPod/Transport DAC combo*.

(And a lot of CD players still do not have the facility to play internet radio or BBC iPlayer or Spotify etc. through their DAC, or will only provide the facility for something like a USB memory stick.)

*A competing UK hifi magazine reviewed the iPod + Onkyo transport through the DAC in a Cambridge Audio 840C against CD replay from the same machine and found the results of the comparison too close to call.

 

[6th.replicant]

FWIW, I'll stop buying CDs when my favourite bands, singers, musicians & conductors have their work available as 24-bit uncompressed downloads (DLs).

But when will this happen, & where will we be able to obtain these uncompressed DLs? iTunes seems rooted to AAC, while Linn et al can only supply their signed artists.

So will all other recording labels start to offer new releases, & their existing catalogues, as uncompressed DLs from their own sites, or are they relying on iTunes to eventually offer 24-bit DLs? DHYB.

You'd think that record companies would be keen to save, in the long term, on the costs of CD pressings, packaging & distribution & offer 24-bit DLs asap?

 

[Anonymous]

AL13N:ChrisMM:Slightly off-topic - can someone recommend the best software to rip CD to WAV on a basic laptop? Ta.
Exact Audio Copy is a good option, and it's free.

Thanks for that - I tried it and it worked fine.

Just for a trial run, as I know it so well I ripped The Nightfly to WAV and it came out as 100% perfect copy. I then copied the file to a USB stick (yes, I know they're supposed to differ in sound quality!), and took it over to the Naim DAC. Sounded absolutely fine. I then played the same track from the CD on the CDX-2 connected to the DAC with Chord Signature digital. Sounded hugely better! Sorry.

It's great to be able to get excellent sounding copied onto stick which you can directly plug in though. Downside of the Naim DAC is it only handles WAV (and SPDIF).

 

[The_Lhc]

ChrisMM:AL13N:ChrisMM:Slightly off-topic - can someone recommend the best software to rip CD to WAV on a basic laptop? Ta.
Exact Audio Copy is a good option, and it's free.

Thanks for that - I tried it and it worked fine.

Just for a trial run, as I know it so well I ripped The Nightfly to WAV and it came out as 100% perfect copy. I then copied the file to a USB stick (yes, I know they're supposed to differ in sound quality!), and took it over to the Naim DAC. Sounded absolutely fine. I then played the same track from the CD on the CDX-2 connected to the DAC with Chord Signature digital. Sounded hugely better! Sorry.

Interesting, could you elaborate on the differences between the two?

As you say you know the piece so well, I'd be interested to know if you noticed the drop in quality BEFORE you then listened to the CD? As you said the USB copy "Sounded absolutely fine." which would appear to be a positive comment and yet it's only after you played the CD that you realised the USB wasn't as good, when one would assume you've listened to the CD on many occasions?

It's great to be able to get excellent sounding copied onto stick which you can directly plug in though. Downside of the Naim DAC is it only handles WAV (and SPDIF).

It may only handle WAV directly from USB but that wouldn't stop you using FLAC through something like a Sonos ZP90 connected to the DAC via SPDIF, should you feel inclined to do so.

 

[Anonymous]

PJPro:Sizzers:......Can't be bothered with poring over a computer screen and clicking around with a mouse waiting for the next "Fatal Disc Error" (well, not with me, but mate of mine lost the LOT!)
Backup, backup, backup...

95% of users don't backup anything, data, music, ipod etc.

It is fortunate that most equipment lasts long enough for their precious collection to be copied across, at the next upgrade.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:
After about 30 minutes of downloading and installing almost 3 years worth of OS upgrades (actually very simple and consisted mostly of waiting) I was in a position to do a 'smart restore' from the external backup drive.

Why didn't / don't you backup your OS as well?

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:
As you say you know the piece so well, I'd be interested to know if you noticed the drop in quality BEFORE you then listened to the CD? As you said the USB copy "Sounded absolutely fine." which would appear to be a positive comment and yet it's only after you played the CD that you realised the USB wasn't as good, when one would assume you've listened to the CD on many occasions?

It's strange you know, but the memory is a very poor system for doing comparisons.

It's only by doing a direct comparison that you can really be sure.

 

[The_Lhc]

Stumpy21:the_lhc:As you say you know the piece so well, I'd be interested to know if you noticed the drop in quality BEFORE you then listened to the CD? As you said the USB copy "Sounded absolutely fine." which would appear to be a positive comment and yet it's only after you played the CD that you realised the USB wasn't as good, when one would assume you've listened to the CD on many occasions?
It's strange you know, but the memory is a very poor system for doing comparisons.

It's only by doing a direct comparison that you can really be sure.

Yes I know, it just seemed a strange contradiction to claiming to know a piece "so well".

I'm more interested to know if the OP would have been happy to carry on listening to the USB version if he'd never subsequantly tried the CD, as it appears he wouldn't have realised there was a difference. If you see what I mean (I don't think I worded that very well)?

 

[Big Chris]

the_lhc:Stumpy21:the_lhc:As you say you know the piece so well, I'd be interested to know if you noticed the drop in quality BEFORE you then listened to the CD? As you said the USB copy "Sounded absolutely fine." which would appear to be a positive comment and yet it's only after you played the CD that you realised the USB wasn't as good, when one would assume you've listened to the CD on many occasions?

It's strange you know, but the memory is a very poor system for doing comparisons.

It's only by doing a direct comparison that you can really be sure.

Yes I know, it just seemed a strange contradiction to claiming to know a piece "so well".

I'm more interested to know if the OP would have been happy to carry on listening to the USB version if he'd never subsequantly tried the CD, as it appears he wouldn't have realised there was a difference. If you see what I mean (I don't think I worded that very well)?

Well they do say ignorance is bliss.

I'm a CD man. I guess I always will be. I don't think CD will die, but like many here have already stated, it will go the way of vinyl. Bought by those for whom convenience takes a back seat to quality, perceived or actual.

 

[RodhasGibson]

Being a CD Man myself,Totally Agree with you Big Chris.

 

[The_Lhc]

Big Chris:I'm a CD man. I guess I always will be. I don't think CD will die, but like many here have already stated, it will go the way of vinyl. Bought by those for whom convenience takes a back seat to quality, perceived or actual.

I know this will seem like the height of insanity to some but I'm going to disagree with you BC (it's ok, I'm a long way away, I don't think he can reach me...).

I'm not sure how you can say CD is more convenient than something like a Sonos system (just as an example because that's what I've got). There's not even a requirement to get out of your seat when you want to listen to a different album, just select it on the controller.

Same goes for vinyl, only more so (I listen to a lot of vinyl), convenience is not one the words I would tag the vinyl listening experience with!

If anything I'd say the argument goes the other way, people with computer based audio are willing to sacrifice a little (perceived or actual) quality in favour of convenience.

 

[staggerlee]

lhc - interested in your view on this, i know you have a lot of knowledge/experience on this. I favour Cd's over computer based audio for the convenience factor and wish someone could convince me that life is easier without CD's. The convenience for me relates to:-

1. I don't have to rip my music onto a hard drive, then back that hard drive to another spare hard drive and store it in safe place. (Same music kept on 3 hard drives)

2. i can play the Cd in the car, friends houses.

3. i don't have to worry about wifi speed, signal drop out or Ethernet cables all over the house

4. I don't have to worry about lossless, WAV or flac formats , how they sound or which is better etc

5. CD albums seem to be cheaper than downloading whole albums - which i then rip to my PC.

6. 24 bit resolution is still years away for me, other than some classical music and niche bands, there is not a lot of material available.

7. I don't need a degree in computers to get NAS's & computers to talk to each other

8. The success of MP3's etc is purely down to convenience rather than getting the best sound quality. (feel free to shoot me down on this).

 

[Big Chris]

the_lhc:

Big Chris:I'm a CD man. I guess I always will be. I don't think CD will die, but like many here have already stated, it will go the way of vinyl. Bought by those for whom convenience takes a back seat to quality, perceived or actual.

I'm not sure how you can say CD is more convenient than something like a Sonos system (just as an example because that's what I've got). There's not even a requirement to get out of your seat when you want to listen to a different album, just select it on the controller.

Same goes for vinyl, only more so (I listen to a lot of vinyl), convenience is not one the words I would tag the vinyl listening experience with!

If anything I'd say the argument goes the other way, people with computer based audio are willing to sacrifice a little (perceived or actual) quality in favour of convenience.

That's how I meant it to read. MP3s et al are more convenient but sacrifice quality. I thought saying "(CDs will be) Bought by those for whom convenience takes a back seat to quality" meant that convenience comes second to quality. That's how I read it anyway!!

 

[The_Lhc]

Big Chris:That's how I meant it to read. MP3s at al are more convenient but sacrifice quality. I thought saying "(CDs will be) Bought by those for whom convenience takes a back seat to quality" meant that convenience comes second to quality. That's how I read it anyway!!

Err, oh yeah... Now I've bothered to read it properly, I agree with you completely!

F***, f*** f****** f***!

 

[The_Lhc]

staggerlee:lhc - interested in your view on this, i know you have a lot of knowledge/experience on this. I favour Cd's over computer based audio for the convenience factor and wish someone could convince me that life is easier without CD's.

Well, leaving aside my utter incompetence at not being able to read what BC actually wrote, I'll see what I can do! First point I'd make is that I still buy CDs, I just don't play them directly. I don't download anything (this is a slight lie, I have in the past downloaded 2 MMW gigs that were only available as FLAC downloads and weren't published in a physical format), so you still have to live with the CDs.

The convenience for me relates to:-

1. I don't have to rip my music onto a hard drive, then back that hard drive to another spare hard drive and store it in safe place. (Same music kept on 3 hard drives)

Well, I don't go that far, I rip them from my computer to my NAS, but I keep a copy on the internal HDD on the PC as well as backup. I don't go so far as to keep a copy in offsite storage personally.

2. i can play the Cd in the car, friends houses.

See my first point above.

3. i don't have to worry about wifi speed, signal drop out or Ethernet cables all over the house

My main Sonos zone is plugged directly into my router (as is required), these both live on my equipment rack where the amp is, so there's no wireless dropout and no cables running anywhere other than around the rack (the NAS is also on the rack).

4. I don't have to worry about lossless, WAV or flac formats , how they sound or which is better etc

They sound the same, so you just pick the one that's most convenient to you when you originally set everything up, then you don't need to worry about it ever again.

5. CD albums seem to be cheaper than downloading whole albums - which i then rip to my PC.

See above, I don't download.

6. 24 bit resolution is still years away for me, other than some classical music and niche bands, there is not a lot of material available.

Not something Sonos can handle yet, so I've never given it any thought.

7. I don't need a degree in computers to get NAS's & computers to talk to each other

Neither does anyone else, the software that came with my NAS walks you through each stage of the setup and automatically mounts the NAS's drives to your PC, so even if you don't know how to do it, the software does.

8. The success of MP3's etc is purely down to convenience rather than getting the best sound quality. (feel free to shoot me down on this).

I can't comment on MP3s, I've never heard one. I really don't believe there's any difference in sound quality between FLAC, ALAC, WAV and the original CD though. Or if there is it's either so small I can't hear it or it's never been successfully demonstrated to me (but then I haven't gone out of my way to try it out. Not owning a CD player makes that a little difficult...).

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:

Interesting, could you elaborate on the differences between the two?

As you say you know the piece so well, I'd be interested to know if you noticed the drop in quality BEFORE you then listened to the CD? As you said the USB copy "Sounded absolutely fine." which would appear to be a positive comment and yet it's only after you played the CD that you realised the USB wasn't as good, when one would assume you've listened to the CD on many occasions?

Well, as I'd borrowed the DAC it was a great opportunity to do some testing. When I said the USB copy sounded fine I simply meant that I was reassured that using a USB stick for audio purposes would have some merit. A simple A-B back to the CD player however showed that it lacked the sparkle and immediacy which I'm very familiar with from use of various Naim CD players since 1993. Soundstage was palpably less wide and the music lacked the gold-plated quality I got from the CD. Wrong stick?

As far as the Nightfly album is concerned, I bought the LP on its release in 1982 and the CD sometime in the 1990s, and must have played it on fifty different players (turntable and CD) since, so I guess I'm familiar with it! I gather it's also available on DVD-A which means I presumably could transfer it to a 24-bit WAV file for stick use in the future...

To me the most interesting thing while trying out this DAC (and hearing it at hifi shows) has been the extent to which the sound is influenced by the 'input'. Increasingly we're told that if you get the DAC/audio output right, it doesn't matter if the digits come from a laptop, stick, DVD player, dedicated CD transport or whatever. This is not my experience.

 

[chebby]

ChrisMM:As far as the Nightfly album is concerned, I bought the LP on its release in 1982 and the CD sometime in the 1990s, and must have played it on fifty different players (turntable and CD) since....

I am on my fourth CD player since 1982.

And just sold my sixth turntable (since 1979) at the end of last year.

What do you do to them?

 

[The_Lhc]

ChrisMM: Soundstage was palpably less wide and the music lacked the gold-plated quality I got from the CD. Wrong stick?

The idea that two different USB sticks sound different is as much an anathema to me as the idea that two hard drives sound different or two network cables (or god forbid, wireless networks) sound different. I will not believe that's possible, it defies everything I know about computer storage.

To me the most interesting thing while trying out this DAC (and hearing it at hifi shows) has been the extent to which the sound is influenced by the 'input'. Increasingly we're told that if you get the DAC/audio output right, it doesn't matter if the digits come from a laptop, stick, DVD player, dedicated CD transport or whatever. This is not my experience.

The only explanation I can think of is that either the rip is at fault or the DAC does something to the data when it pulls it off the USB stick. Nothing else makes a great deal of sense.

 

[Big Chris]

The only issue I have with CDs are the ever more intricate and annoying packaging. I believe the humble jewel case is the best method for storing CDs. It's easy to use and keeps the CDs in good condition.

Digipacks are a P.I.T.A.. Reams of cardboard which never folds back the way it originally was. CDs which have to slide in and out of a cardboard box which inevitably leads to scratched CDs.

Most recent CD I've bought is 'The Dillinger Escape Plan - Option Paralysis'. This digipack takes some beating for its complete annoyingness. Sure, it looks great, but when all you want to do is get a CD out and stick it in the player, but don't have 15 minutes to spare to do it. It's a headache.

When selecting CDs for the car, I will actually decide against a CD due to its awkward packaging, even if I really want to listen to the music.