is cd finished as a main music carrier or player

[chebby]

Sizzers:Log on, couple of mouse clicks and HEY PRESTO, another disposable tune. Can't be bothered with poring over a computer screen and clicking around with a mouse waiting for the next "Fatal Disc Error" (well, not with me, but mate of mine lost the LOT!)

We recently experienced the loss of the internal 250GB HD on our iMac. The iMac was couriered off to the approved Apple repair people and couriered back with a brand new HD fitted (320 GB this time so free upgrade) under our Apple Care cover.

After about 30 minutes of downloading and installing almost 3 years worth of OS upgrades (actually very simple and consisted mostly of waiting) I was in a position to do a 'smart restore' from the external backup drive. Another 20 minutes and everything including the entire iTunes was back to how it was about 3 days before the old HD packed in including all settings and playlists and artwork and preferences.

If something destroyed your entire CD collection would anyone deliver a brand new set, identical in every respect (including all the stuff that is irreplaceable) to your door completely free of charge? (I have a lot of drama and documentary material originally recorded from radio going back to about 1992 on my iTunes so certainly not 'disposable'!)

Can you duplicate all your irreplaceable CDs/photos/documents etc for the cost of an external HD (about £60) and store them offsite in a desk at work in something the size of a *** packet?
Someone's 'mate' not having having a clue about the importance of regular system backups is hardly a good argument for ignoring the advantages of computer/HD based music.

 

[Sizzers]

chebby:
Sizzers:Log on, couple of mouse clicks and HEY PRESTO, another disposable tune. Can't be bothered with poring over a computer screen and clicking around with a mouse waiting for the next "Fatal Disc Error" (well, not with me, but mate of mine lost the LOT!)

We recently experienced the loss of the internal 250GB HD on our iMac. The iMac was couriered off to the approved Apple repair people and couriered back with a brand new HD fitted (320 GB this time so free upgrade) under our Apple Care cover.

After about 30 minutes of downloading and installing almost 3 years worth of OS upgrades (actually very simple and consisted mostly of waiting) I was in a position to do a 'smart restore' from the external backup drive. Another 20 minutes and everything including the entire iTunes was back to how it was about 3 days before the old HD packed in including all settings and playlists and artwork and preferences.

If something destroyed your entire CD collection would anyone deliver a brand new set, identical in every respect (including all the stuff that is irreplaceable) to your door completely free of charge? (I have a lot of drama and documentary material originally recorded from radio going back to about 1992 on my iTunes so certainly not 'disposable'!)

Can you duplicate all your irreplaceable CDs/photos/documents etc for the cost of an external HD (about £60) and store them offsite in a desk at work in something the size of a *** packet?
Someone's 'mate' not having having a clue about the importance of regular system backups is hardly a good argument for ignoring the advantages of computer/HD based music.

I wasn't ignoring it Chebby, and I wasn't meaning to denigrade the format. I was only saying that for me personally I prefer the solid format.

Apologies if I've caused any offence and none intended. I was just stating my own opinion but that doesn't mean others are wrong.

 

[idc]

Sizzers:I am of an age (try 52!) when buying an album was an actual "event". Apart from the cost of the album (no discounted cheapies in them days), you had all the anticipation of buying the physical product. 12" vinyl, the artwork (Roger Dean anyone?), maybe a poster or two (Dark Side Of The Moon maybe?), lyrics of a size you could actually read (maybe even in a seperate booklet), but what a sense of occasion you had to actually go out and buy an "Album"...........!

I know what you mean, but that is nothing to what you can find on the internet about a band http://www.yesworld.com/ , album, http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1827 and Roger Dean http://www.rogerdean.com/

 

[PJPro]

I don't think any offence was taken (you'll have to try a lot harder than that ;-) ), I think chebby was trying to underline the simple steps one can take to prevent a disaster which are not easily possible with hard copy.

 

[JoelSim]

the_lhc:
JoelSim:the_lhc:JoelSim:The bits that give it the atmosphere

So you're saying lossless audio doesn't have the atmosphere of CD?

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the old "vinyl sounds better than CD" debate. One of the main arguments for which is that CD loses the sense of atmosphere that you get from vinyl.

I can only support what my ears have told me in a direct A/B test using the DAC on my CDP fella,

No need to get defensive Joel, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you. I just found it amusing that exactly the same argument that was used to disparage CD over vinyl when CD came (and an argument that you'll still hear today) is now being used to defend CD over streaming music! It's ironic.

Maybe.

I have nothing against laptop/music, I use mine to Spotify sometimes but if I am on my own with a glass of vino it's a CD every time.
I take it I don't need to point out that Spotify isn't lossless?

I'm well aware that Spotify isn't lossless, I used some tunes ripped lossless with error correction onto my MacBook and then streamed via AE/Airtunes into my DAC on my CDP. The streamed music wasn't as nice as the CD.

 

[Sizzers]

PJPro:I don't think any offence was taken (you'll have to try a lot harder than that ;-) ), I think chebby was trying to underline the simple steps one can take to prevent a disaster which are not easily possible with hard copy.

Well wasn't my disaster, but couldn't believe he never backed anything up!

Maybe I'll give the format a go one day, but right now I'm just focused on getting a seperate CDP for a headphone set-up (another story!)

 

[PJPro]

JoelSim:[snip]....I used some tunes ripped lossless with error correction onto my MacBook and then streamed via AE/Airtunes into my DAC on my CDP. The streamed music wasn't as nice as the CD.
Were you streaming over a wireless network?

 

[The_Lhc]

Sizzers:I'm not knocking the format as such, or the quality, just hate what seems to be the disposability of music these days.

Yaeh, I mean all those 7" singles that people bought for a few pence back in the day, it's amazing how every single one of them still retains pride of place in the owner's homes!

Oh wait, that's not right...

Singles have ALWAYS been disposable, that's why charity shops have them by the bucketload.

 

[The_Lhc]

PJPro:JoelSim:[snip]....I used some tunes ripped lossless with error correction onto my MacBook and then streamed via AE/Airtunes into my DAC on my CDP. The streamed music wasn't as nice as the CD.
Were you streaming over a wireless network?

Because if you were it, you know, wouldn't make any difference.

 

[Sizzers]

the_lhc:
Sizzers:I'm not knocking the format as such, or the quality, just hate what seems to be the disposability of music these days.

Yaeh, I mean all those 7" singles that people bought for a few pence back in the day, it's amazing how every single one of them still retains pride of place in the owner's homes!

Oh wait, that's not right...

Singles have ALWAYS been disposable, that's why charity shops have them by the bucketload.

Is that where my Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch collection ended up then? *sob*

 

[The_Lhc]

Sizzers:the_lhc:Sizzers:I'm not knocking the format as such, or the quality, just hate what seems to be the disposability of music these days.
Yaeh, I mean all those 7" singles that people bought for a few pence back in the day, it's amazing how every single one of them still retains pride of place in the owner's homes!

Oh wait, that's not right...

Singles have ALWAYS been disposable, that's why charity shops have them by the bucketload.

Is that where my Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch collection ended up then? *sob*

Joking aside, that's the perfect example, what did you do with it all?

 

[Sizzers]

the_lhc:Sizzers:the_lhc:Sizzers:I'm not knocking the format as such, or the quality, just hate what seems to be the disposability of music these days.
Yaeh, I mean all those 7" singles that people bought for a few pence back in the day, it's amazing how every single one of them still retains pride of place in the owner's homes!

Oh wait, that's not right...

Singles have ALWAYS been disposable, that's why charity shops have them by the bucketload.

Is that where my Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch collection ended up then? *sob*

Joking aside, that's the perfect example, what did you do with it all?

Well I probably grew out of singles around the age of 15, before moving on to the "Big" discs.

Around 10 years (and about '00 albums) later, circumstances meant they had to go (don't ask). Moved around the country a lot working after that, so had all cassette based music for mobility etc (that all went as well in 1988 when I disappeared off to the States for a while!), and I've never really caught up since! Now if streamed (portable) music had been around then.....

 

[staggerlee]

Having seen Cd destroy vinyl and tapes, we all assume that it will now disappear as a format, as computer based music will do to Cd what it did to these. I actually have a different view and think the format will survive in parallel with other sources. I love my ipod, imac, Itunes etc but i still get more satisfaction from putting a Cd on or when a friend puts a record, it feels special then clicking away on a computer.

 

[the record spot]

PJPro:I don't think any offence was taken (you'll have to try a lot harder than that ;-) ), I think chebby was trying to underline the simple steps one can take to prevent a disaster which are not easily possible with hard copy.

Nor indeed, is a 500Gb or 1TB worth of HDD stored music or other content...

 

[AL13N]

For me CD is the perfect middle ground. Not as expensive and high maintenance as vinyl, yet can still grip and entertain (in the context of a good system of course).

I know downloads are available in HD but most of the music I want is still only available in MP3. Now if 24/96 became the default download format...

 

[The_Lhc]

staggerlee:Having seen Cd destroy vinyl and tapes,

Tapes, yes, but vinyl? Hardly...

we all assume that it will now disappear as a format, as computer based music will do to Cd what it did to these. I actually have a different view and think the format will survive in parallel with other sources.

Like vinyl does you mean?

I love my ipod, imac, Itunes etc but i still get more satisfaction from putting a Cd on or when a friend puts a record, it feels special then clicking away on a computer.

So don't use a computer, the best thing about my Sonos system is that I can just sit in my chair and select any and every piece of music I own from the remote, without even having to move. My PC isn't even switched on.

 

[The_Lhc]

Sizzers:the_lhc:Sizzers:the_lhc:Sizzers:I'm not knocking the format as such, or the quality, just hate what seems to be the disposability of music these days.
Singles have ALWAYS been disposable, that's why charity shops have them by the bucketload.

Is that where my Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch collection ended up then? *sob*

Joking aside, that's the perfect example, what did you do with it all?

Well I probably grew out of singles around the age of 15, before moving on to the "Big" discs.

You mean as a teenager you decided the singles had become disposable and started buying albums? That's not really any different to how people treat music now is it? I never buy singles but I have hundreds of albums, all sitting on my NAS.

Around 10 years (and about '00 albums) later, circumstances meant they had to go (don't ask). Moved around the country a lot working after that, so had all cassette based music for mobility etc (that all went as well in 1988 when I disappeared off to the States for a while!), and I've never really caught up since! Now if streamed (portable) music had been around then.....

Exactly, music is no more disposable now than it was previously but it is far more convenient!

 

[Anonymous]

Slightly off-topic - can someone recommend the best software to rip CD to WAV on a basic laptop? Ta.

 

[johnnyblue]

"Tapes, yes, but vinyl? Hardly...

we all assume that it will now disappear as a format, as computer based music will do to Cd what it did to these. I actually have a different view and think the format will survive in parallel with other sources.

Like vinyl does you mean? "

although reports of the death of vinyl are much exagerrated so too are reports of its miraculous resurrection. sales of vinyl are rising but they still only account for 1% of sales. Digital downloads now account for approx 30%. The rest is cds.

30 years ago everyone bought either vinyl or cassettes. Now just about everyone buys either cds or downloads. a minority of enthusiasts buy vinyl.

quoting from the telegraph sales of 7 inch singles peaked in 1979 with 89,000,000 sales. last year it was 223,000. - a statistically insignificant number.

The notion that most people still pIay music on their hifi systems is laughable unless you consider the average ghettoblaster, mini system to really be hifi.Most don't sound any better or worse than computer based music.

think that once (if) the government switches off analogue radio the vast majority of people will buy some sort of dab/hdd radio that will allow them to rewind live radio, pay to play streaming music or download whatever they want for however long they want to keep it. cd and vinyl may never completely die, but their best days are long behind them.

20 years ago years ago there were still old men who bought 78's (there probably still are) there's always a market for everything.

 

[idc]

I hope my old albums and cassettes are still in use. One day someone will be playing my old CDs as well. Of course no one will get to play my old streamed music as it cannot have a second hand value. So maybe second hand is what will keep CDs going as they are far more durable than albums and cassettes.

 

[The_Lhc]

johnnyblue:the_lhc:Tapes, yes, but vinyl? Hardly... we all assume that it will now disappear as a format, as computer based music will do to Cd what it did to these. I actually have a different view and think the format will survive in parallel with other sources.
Like vinyl does you mean?

although reports of the death of vinyl are much exagerrated so too are reports of its miraculous resurrection. sales of vinyl are rising but they still only account for 1% of sales. Digital downloads now account for approx 30%. The rest is cds.

There's still a strong enough market for a large number of manufacturers to continue making the hardware though and for new releases to be offered in the format.

30 years ago everyone bought either vinyl or cassettes. Now just about everyone buys either cds or downloads. a minority of enthusiasts buy vinyl.

quoting from the telegraph sales of 7 inch singles peaked in 1979 with 89,000,000 sales. last year it was 223,000. - a statistically insignificant number.

That's fairly meaningless to be honest, I shouldn't think many vinyl enthusiasts bother with singles anymore though, I certainly don't, there's far more titles being released on LP than there are 7" singles now.

The notion that most people still pIay music on their hifi systems is laughable unless you consider the average ghettoblaster, mini system to really be hifi.

Given the huge rise in headphone sales it would seem to me that most people are now listening to music on portable devices. Anyway the notion that most people play music on hifi systems as we recognise them (ie separates) has always been laughable I'd suggest. Hi-Fi has never been the weapon of choice for the majority I shouldn't think. I've got about as much evidence to back that notion up with as you've provided for yours however.

Most don't sound any better or worse than computer based music.

With respect that's a pretty meaningless comment. What does "computer based music" sound like? Are you suggesting it all sounds the same? I expect someone who's paid 10k for a Sooloos system and equivalently priced amps to play it through might have something to say about that. And I'd put my Sonos system up against any "ghettoblaster" or "mini system" and expect to win comfortably.

think that once (if) the government switches off analogue radio the vast majority of people will buy some sort of dab/hdd radio that will allow them to rewind live radio, pay to play streaming music or download whatever they want for however long they want to keep it.

They might well, but I'd be willing to bet a significant proportion of them only use it for listening to the radio, like they do now.

cd and vinyl may never completely die, but their best days are long behind them.

Yes, I'd expect CD to decline gradually however, there are plenty of people who won't move to computer based audio and many of us who have are still buying CDs to rip them, rather than download them, as was pointed out previously, there's still a lot that isn't available in lossless formats yet. Once they become the norm I'd expect CD sales to head downhill a lot quicker.

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

for me this is so mudded, if you cant burn a 24 bit file to disc or your computer cannot play 24 bit and then down converts it to 16 bit wifi or burning whats the point its the same as CD isnt. There has to be a program out there and music that you can download...burn...play and will sound better than store bought CD's. I have a 20 bit CD by Ozzy that was remastered and it sounds pretty good and my player plays it fine (cyrus 8SE).

Here's what I think the nut with dynamite strapped to himself... HQ downloads from master tapes will be available through download file size will be huge, but its off the original digital master. until that happens HQ downloads will sit like SACD and DVD-A. If music is not available why bother.

 

[The_Lhc]

Mike_Schmidt:for me this is so mudded, if you cant burn a 24 bit file to disc or your computer cannot play 24 bit and then down converts it to 16 bit wifi or burning whats the point its the same as CD isnt. There has to be a program out there and music that you can download...burn...play and will sound better than store bought CD's.

Think about it, audio CD is a 16-bit format, how do you think you're ever going to be able to burn 24-bit files to it!

There's absolutely no reason why you can't listen to 24-bit audio on your computer though, or using any one of the streaming systems that support it, such as Squeezebox Touch or most of the higher end systems (although not Sonos, irritatingly).

I have a 20 bit CD by Ozzy that was remastered and it sounds pretty good and my player plays it fine (cyrus 8SE).

Umm, actually, no you don't, what you have is a 20-bit (re)master, that has been dithered down to 16-bit in order to fit on the CD. That's not uncommon, but the CD is still holding 16-bit audio, sorry.

Here's what I think the nut with dynamite strapped to himself... HQ downloads from master tapes will be available through download file size will be huge, but its off the original digital master. until that happens HQ downloads will sit like SACD and DVD-A. If music is not available why bother.

It's the same with any new format, until people starting buying the format, publishers won't issue music on it, but people won't buy the format until there's music available on it. It's the classic Catch-22 but it's not new.

 

[AL13N]

ChrisMM:Slightly off-topic - can someone recommend the best software to rip CD to WAV on a basic laptop? Ta.
Exact Audio Copy is a good option, and it's free.

 

[johnnyblue]

"There's still a strong enough market for a large number of manufacturers to continue making the hardware though and for new releases to be offered in the format."

Uh, yeah.

"That's fairly meaningless to be honest, I shouldn't think many vinyl enthusiasts bother with singles anymore though, I certainly don't, there's far more titles being released on LP than there are 7" singles now."

I just quoted singles because I couldn't be bothered to look up album sales, I still can't be bothered but I trhink albums peaked in 1978. But obviously the same principle applies.Once upon a time several miilions of vinyl albums were sold every year, now considerably less than a million are.

"Given the huge rise in headphone sales it would seem to me that most people are now listening to music on portable devices. Anyway the notion that most people play music on hifi systems as we recognise them (ie separates) has always been laughable I'd suggest. Hi-Fi has never been the weapon of choice for the majority I shouldn't think. I've got about as much evidence to back that notion up with as you've provided for yours however."

I think most people listen to music on headphones when they're on the move;running,walking,on the bus,the train,the car etc or when they're on their computer or games console.Otherwise I think they probably listen to something that has a cd player and a radio.Indeed my point was that they have never listened on what might be considered hifi.

"With respect that's a pretty meaningless comment. What does "computer based music" sound like? Are you suggesting it all sounds the same? I expect someone who's paid 10k for a Sooloos system and equivalently priced amps to play it through might have something to say about that. And I'd put my Sonos system up against any "ghettoblaster" or "mini system" and expect to win comfortably. "

Okay, to clarify,most music played through the average computer and desktop speakers probably sounds about as good or bad as music played through an average sub £100 cd/radio.

"They might well, but I'd be willing to bet a significant proportion of them only use it for listening to the radio, like they do now. "

I've no idea what your point is there.

"Yes, I'd expect CD to decline gradually however, there are plenty of people who won't move to computer based audio and many of us who have are still buying CDs to rip them, rather than download them, as was pointed out previously, there's still a lot that isn't available in lossless formats yet. Once they become the norm I'd expect CD sales to head downhill a lot quicker."

I listen to cds and lps and subscribe to Spotify. To my mind some music pre-1990 sounds better on vinyl depending on the production and the genre. I find a lot of stuff with high production values sounds just as good on cd. The vast majpority of recordings after 1990ish sound fine on cd (to me) and with my limited set up (CA 640 cdp and amp and AE evo 3 floorstanders) Spotify usually sounds as good as a cd when run through the headphone socket on my laptop and then my amp, but I'm willing to admit that I might well be a bit cloth eared.

But to return to the original point - are cds finished?Well, yes and no, because there's a market for everything.They're cheap to produce,handy for new bands to sell at concerts, answer the need for humans (like me) to collect and posses and doubtless, given time, they will attain the same sort of cachet that vinyl now has.