is cd finished as a main music carrier or player

[Craig M.]

JoelSim:
Wholeheartedly agree. Lossless isn't as good as CD currently fed through exactly the same DAC on my CDP.

Logically how can it be as good when it is only approx 60% of the file size of uncompressed, something is being lost. Lossless it isn't.

lossless is lossless, if you've the inclination it's easy to prove. the data is just packaged better.

the likelihood is that the dac in your cdp doesn't reject jitter from an external source as well as it might and so sounds better when using its own low jitter transport.

 

[JoelSim]

Craig M.:JoelSim:
Wholeheartedly agree. Lossless isn't as good as CD currently fed through exactly the same DAC on my CDP.

Logically how can it be as good when it is only approx 60% of the file size of uncompressed, something is being lost. Lossless it isn't.

lossless is lossless, if you've the inclination it's easy to prove. the data is just packaged better.

the likelihood is that the dac in your cdp doesn't reject jitter from an external source as well as it might and so sounds better when using its own low jitter transport.

And jitter could be responsible for the lack of all the nice bits on the edges of the music which give it that little bit extra?

 

[idc]

JoelSim:Craig M.:JoelSim:

Wholeheartedly agree. Lossless isn't as good as CD currently fed through exactly the same DAC on my CDP.

Logically how can it be as good when it is only approx 60% of the file size of uncompressed, something is being lost. Lossless it isn't.

lossless is lossless, if you've the inclination it's easy to prove. the data is just packaged better.

the likelihood is that the dac in your cdp doesn't reject jitter from an external source as well as it might and so sounds better when using its own low jitter transport.

And jitter could be responsible for the lack of all the nice bits on the edges of the music which give it that little bit extra?

Yes, particularly the high frequencies as they are more prone to delay during transmission, hence timing errors.

 

[chebby]

JoelSim:And jitter could be responsible for the lack of all the nice bits on the edges of the music which give it that little bit extra?

Has Joel just invented digital 'crackling'?

 

[JoelSim]

The bits that give it the atmosphere

 

[Anonymous]

I still prefer CD's myself even though I have plenty of computers (including MAC), MP3 players and other music players at my disposal as well as fast broadband. The reasons I'm not using my computers as a source is:

My cd player is more convenient and relaxing (i.e. no distractions of the computer such as browsing so actually listen more to music and not flicking between tracks on the PC), I like collecting a physical music format with album notes and pics, computers are noisy compared to cd players, computers consume far more electricity than my cd player does, cd's are pretty reliable and have good sound quality for the price, its wise to back-up music on the computer and therefore costs to buy mulitple hard drives and there is a greater chance of losing you entire collection, cd's are portable and its easier to play them elsewhere and share with friends and family, I can't be bothered to upload to my ipod, download to PC/MAC and sort out various media player software, extra hard drives etc. CD's are just easier IMO.

 

[cjackson]

Very Well put Inter 84, I agree 100%

CD is the best and always will be!! Long live the Compact Disc . (and Mini-Disc lol)

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

so am I getting this right besides the few downloads from Linn and Naim offering a higher than CD resolution lossless is really a wav form of a CD? I could see how going through a hard drive and using a HQ DAC would be beneficial but that would mean you still have to rip your CD and store it not that its to much of a convience loss on the whole spectrum, but if you could achieve a better sound than from your CD player it would justify everything. Leading to this, would it better to buy a hard drive and run that into a really good DAC instead of a integrated CD player alone. 2ndly does anyone think that higher resolution CD or downloads to CD are on the way or is blu ray onto something with the ability to hold more information on a disc.

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim:The bits that give it the atmosphere

So you're saying lossless audio doesn't have the atmosphere of CD?

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the old "vinyl sounds better than CD" debate. One of the main arguments for which is that CD loses the sense of atmosphere that you get from vinyl.

Still, I guess recycling old arguments is green, if nothing else.

 

[The_Lhc]

Inter 84:I still prefer CD's myself even though I have plenty of computers (including MAC), MP3 players and other music players at my disposal as well as fast broadband. The reasons I'm not using my computers as a source is:

My cd player is more convenient and relaxing (i.e. no distractions of the computer such as browsing so actually listen more to music and not flicking between tracks on the PC), I like collecting a physical music format with album notes and pics, computers are noisy compared to cd players, computers consume far more electricity than my cd player does, cd's are pretty reliable and have good sound quality for the price, its wise to back-up music on the computer and therefore costs to buy mulitple hard drives and there is a greater chance of losing you entire collection, cd's are portable and its easier to play them elsewhere and share with friends and family, I can't be bothered to upload to my ipod, download to PC/MAC and sort out various media player software, extra hard drives etc. CD's are just easier IMO.

Don't use your computer then. I listen to lossless audio all the time, my PC is only ever switched on the rip a new CD, the rest of the time it isn't required, I just pick up my Sonos controller, select the tracks I want and press play. If you buy a NAS that also rips you don't even need the PC for that.

 

[The_Lhc]

Mike_Schmidt:so am I getting this right besides the few downloads from Linn and Naim offering a higher than CD resolution lossless is really a wav form of a CD?

For the most part yes. Linn for example also offer their hi-res downloads in 16-bit FLAC format. That's going to have come from the original hi-res master and will likely be the same 16-bit image that's written to their CDs, so is't going to sound appreciably different.

I could see how going through a hard drive and using a HQ DAC would be beneficial but that would mean you still have to rip your CD and store it not that its to much of a convience loss on the whole spectrum,

I'm not entirely sure what "not that its to much of a convience loss on the whole spectrum" actually means, but it's no big deal, I ripped 3 cds yesterday using AccurateRip and that only took about 4-5 minutes per CD.

but if you could achieve a better sound than from your CD player it would justify everything. Leading to this, would it better to buy a hard drive and run that into a really good DAC instead of a integrated CD player alone.

Well that's kind of the question that this thread is trying (and failing) to answer. My opinion is there's no reason for lossless 16-bit audio to sound worse than CD, especially going through the same DAC. There's a possibility it might sound fractionally better but I suspect in reality there's no perceivable difference to most people. It's not something I can test though, as I don't own a CD player.

2ndly does anyone think that higher resolution CD or downloads to CD are on the way

Higher resolution CD has been done, it's called SACD and it failed. "Downloads to CD"? That doesn't really mean anything, whatever you download can be written to CD, even hi-res audio, although you'd have to downconvert it to 16-bit (mainly just for space reasons), so it would kind of defeat the object of getting the hi-res version in the first place.

or is blu ray onto something with the ability to hold more information on a disc.

It's a storage medium, there are a handful of BD audio discs around but I don't see it being any more successful than DVD-Audio myself.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't see why digitised music cannot be sold on an audio equivilent of USB sticks or Compact flash cards that are used for digital cameras. As long as the same digital information that is currently on CDs is put onto to the "audio stick" there would be no difference to the current audio CD.

The big difference would be to the machine that plays/decodes it. There would no longer be any requirement for CD drawers, motors or lasers, all of which are prone to reliability issues. Also, the power needs would be significantly reduced and overall size of the new "player" would shrink massively.

Online downloads are clearly reducing demand for CDs but there will always be a demand for quality home Hifi components to play the music. The CD format is large and requires overly complicated machines to play them, an "Audio Stick/Flash Card" format has got to make sense.

 

[The_Lhc]

You're right, there's no reason why not, other than the fact that there's almost no point now, it would require (most) people to buy a completely new player and the fact is it's now pretty much a practical proposition to just download the files instead.

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

do you think downloading flac music and then putting it to CD would sound better than the store bought CD mastered somewhere else?

 

[chebby]

Mike_Schmidt:do you think downloading flac music and then putting it to CD would sound better than the store bought CD mastered somewhere else?

Not sure why you would want to. (Except for use in the car.)

Playing the downloaded file is surely a lot easier.

 

[the record spot]

CD will continue for some time as a format of choice for many people. The digital download community is divided, but that's as much down to different requirements for each sector in that community. However, as with vinyl, CD will last for a long time to come. Downloads are with us for good and one day, that will become a high quality standard as the norm, either for download or remote accessing as we do with Spotify currently.

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

I have no way of streaming music to my HI FI set up. So if streaming isnt a option buring to CD would have to be then? Is there streaming music that sounds better than CD, curious now

 

[JoelSim]

the_lhc:
JoelSim:The bits that give it the atmosphere

So you're saying lossless audio doesn't have the atmosphere of CD?

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the old "vinyl sounds better than CD" debate. One of the main arguments for which is that CD loses the sense of atmosphere that you get from vinyl.

Still, I guess recycling old arguments is green, if nothing else.

I can only support what my ears have told me in a direct A/B test using the DAC on my CDP fella, all the rest of the equipment was the same too, the only difference being lossless through AE/Airtunes vs the transport on the CDP. There was quite a difference. The lossless file just seemed to be lacking in atmosphere. It may be different for other people but they were my findings.

I have nothing against laptop/music, I use mine to Spotify sometimes but if I am on my own with a glass of vino it's a CD every time.

 

[Tonya]

A lot of storage space in my house (particularly under the stairs) is dedicated to music & films of various formats.
I still play the occasional LaserDisc film and marvel at it's non-blockness and lack of compression.
I see it as the video equivilent of vinyl

My Sony DAT player still sounds excellent despite the "demise" of the format.
A well engineered CD can sound remarkably good on the right set up, but although it's been long surpassed technically, it has yet to be threatened commercially.

I've been collecting DTS 5.1 audio CDs for some time now and they really push the envelope when it comes to the soundstage and general dynamics.
These albums are readily available by mail order and can be played on most home cinema systems yet have failed to make the impact that they truly deserve.
Everyone who hears them at my place think it's amazing and some sort of prototype system when in reality the format has been knocking around for ages.
Sure, the format is ticking over but does it have a commercial future?
Unfortunately it's not always the best format that wins (VHS/Beta anyone?).

Given that anyone who is listening to a BluRay disc via DolbyTrue (or DTS Master Audio) is hearing a bit-for-bit digital stream of what came out of the mixing desk, surely one would expect that this should represent the Holy Grail in music carrier formats.
Technically, this format really is 100% lossless and can support 24-bit/192 kHz audio.
The discs are cheap to press and there's plenty of space for value added extras.

Clearly it beats the humble CD on all areas, but will it ever see the light of day as an audio format?
Apart from the people I work with, I'm horrified that most of my social circle are quite happy with their tinny TV sound, FM radios and mp3 players.

CD was designed from day one to be a good quality format for the masses and will probably remain so for many more years to come.
Having a vast digital collection just isn't the same "touchy-feely" experience that you get with opening that jewel case with the one broken hinge containing the booklet.
That's what made vinyl so great, the album art was part of the experience.

It's a great shame the way things have gone in the past decade or so, the average person is now accustomed to the awful compressed sound of mp3, they choose to ignore the dire quality of a lot of the SD channels available (or as I call it LegoVision).

Even the once breathtaking quality of BBC HD has taken a bit-reduction hit since it's launch.
OK to be fair it's not bad, but it certainly not what it could be.
Again, commercial interests dictate that reduced bandwidth means better economy.

So is CD finished as a main music carrier or player?
I think not, especially when the planet's largest music company, Universal, it set to slash the resale price of all it's CD releases in the US to around £4 - £5 mark with the rest of the territories more than likely to follow.
At that price, it makes owning that little silver disc just that bit more enticing

That's not the death knell of CD you can hear in the distance, it's the rebirth.

( Steps down from soapbox just in time to watch Cougar Town in HD - yes, I know, but she's still hot! )

 

[The_Lhc]

Mike_Schmidt:I have no way of streaming music to my HI FI set up. So if streaming isnt a option buring to CD would have to be then? Is there streaming music that sounds better than CD, curious now

Yes, we've answered this question, music files encoded in higher bit-rates and sampling rates can and do sound better than the equivalent CD.

 

[The_Lhc]

Mike_Schmidt:do you think downloading flac music and then putting it to CD would sound better than the store bought CD mastered somewhere else?

Not necessarily no, if it's a 16-bit file then it's probably come from the same master as the CD, or is a rip of a CD, so at best will only sound the same. If it's a 24-bit file, then it'll have to be down-sampled by your PC to 16-bit before it can be written to CD (unless you write it as data but then you won't be able to play it in a CD player) and you can't guarantee your PC's efforts will be as good as a professional studio.

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim:the_lhc:JoelSim:The bits that give it the atmosphere

So you're saying lossless audio doesn't have the atmosphere of CD?

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the old "vinyl sounds better than CD" debate. One of the main arguments for which is that CD loses the sense of atmosphere that you get from vinyl.

I can only support what my ears have told me in a direct A/B test using the DAC on my CDP fella,

No need to get defensive Joel, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you. I just found it amusing that exactly the same argument that was used to disparage CD over vinyl when CD came (and an argument that you'll still hear today) is now being used to defend CD over streaming music! It's ironic.

Maybe.

I have nothing against laptop/music, I use mine to Spotify sometimes but if I am on my own with a glass of vino it's a CD every time.
I take it I don't need to point out that Spotify isn't lossless?

 

[Sizzers]

I am of an age (try 52!) when buying an album was an actual "event".

Apart from the cost of the album (no discounted cheapies in them days), you had all the anticipation of buying the physical product. 12" vinyl, the artwork (Roger Dean anyone?), maybe a poster or two (Dark Side Of The Moon maybe?), lyrics of a size you could actually read (maybe even in a seperate booklet), but what a sense of occasion you had to actually go out and buy an "Album". And it was, because they weren't exactly cheap in real terms in my day, so you actually thought a little bit about what you were buying.

So along came CD. Not to hot soundwise at first but, okay, eventually got it's act together and don't think to many people today would complain about the sound quality. No real sense of occasion in buying one mind; pick it up, stuff it in your coat pocket, stick it in your CDP and that's about it (apart from enjoying the music of course)

Now we have the "McDonaldisation" of music. Log on, couple of mouse clicks and HEY PRESTO, another disposable tune. Can't be bothered with poring over a computer screen and clicking around with a mouse waiting for the next "Fatal Disc Error" (well, not with me, but mate of mine lost the LOT!)

Anyway, enough of my old man ramblings. Just about to stick "Head First" on, then "Amnesia" before out for a curry!

 

[PJPro]

Sizzers:......Can't be bothered with poring over a computer screen and clicking around with a mouse waiting for the next "Fatal Disc Error" (well, not with me, but mate of mine lost the LOT!)
Backup, backup, backup...

 

[Sizzers]

PJPro:Sizzers:......Can't be bothered with poring over a computer screen and clicking around with a mouse waiting for the next "Fatal Disc Error" (well, not with me, but mate of mine lost the LOT!)
Backup, backup, backup...

Even I knew that, but he didn't! lol

I'm not knocking the format as such, or the quality, just hate what seems to be the disposability of music these days. Guilty as hell myself for what I download for my phone, but just want to slot a CD in when I'm at home (I come in peace!)