Is 5-stars enough?

[professorhat]

al7478:But if this actually happenned, they would have to charge enough to make people think twice aqbout losing that money. you might then see the better off factoring those costs in, and therefore being prepared to walk away, and the less well off (majority) just buying blind online anyway. I dont think that would do the whole AV industry any good

Indeed, I never said it was a solution, but I can definitely see it being a knee jerk reaction by some retailers fed up with offering their demo facilities to customers, only to see them walk away and order online. This has been discussed many times on the forum and a number of people have disclosed here they see no issue on using dealers in this way. As I say, this is a minority few, but their greed (in terms of wanting the service but not wanting to pay for it) may well determine "company" policy for the majority to stop this benefit. Neither dealer nor customer benefits from this, but I can still kind of understand the dealers' thoughts behind such a policy, even though I'm sure it won't actually do them any good in the long term.

 

[Anonymous]

What actualy happened was I couldn't find a shop local that could provide a demo but found one that offered to let you take it for a home trial after paying the deposit. But as the item could be found cheaper online I didn't go for it, unless they were prepared to match the price which they weren't so effectively It would have cost £200 for the privolage. Therefore my point was that the rating system I think helps a lot.

 

[Anonymous]

Personally I much prefer this simple five stars system to some of the more detailed systems used by competing magazines / web sites. Please don't change it. The thing is that sound / picture quality / value for money is largely subjective. All of the objective tests in the world can't compensate for the subtle (sometimes not so subtle) differences in the way that our eyes, ears and brains perceive sound and pictures. And for many people (me included) the aesthetics and ergonomics of a product are also important. For years now I've been using What HiFi's ratings to shortlist products to demo. Plenty of times I've wound up choosing four star products rather than five star or even award winning ones, just because they worked better with my other kit.

Choose the kit that looks and sounds best to you, not the reviewer or some measurement device. The ratings are only a guide.ÿ

 

[Clare Newsome]

seakingadvice:Andrew Everard:
Big Aura:.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?

Erm, no.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Not the part about giving it away for free as we wouldn't want WHF to go out of business! But the part about having the entire magazine online. I believe some sites like Zinio do offer entire magazines online which are an exact duplicate of the hard copy magazine for a discounted price.

The upside is that WHF gets to save on production cost of the hard copy and can generate more subscribers by luring us in with the more attractive subscription price. For readers/subscribers, particularly those who are located overseas, we will be able to download the magazine for instant gratification and not depend on the postal service. Also, it makes storing back issues much easier. My collection of the hard copy magazine has been piling up and I'm running out of space! But, being the hoarder that I am, I can't bear to throw them away...

Win win proposition so please consider. Thanks!
We're ahead of you there - digital WHF (and Ultimate Guides) already up and running in trial mode, and we'll be doing a full launch soon....

 

[Anonymous]

The idea of buying from a dealer for their service is a good one and ProfessorHat has been on the end of numerous threads espousing the virtues of having a dealer network alive and well versus nowhere to see and hear kit and only the internet to buy from. On this I'm with him.

However. There is too big a disparity between what some dealers would like to charge (RRP) and the prices goods are available for elsewhere. It is simply not worth the premium most of the time to buy from an RRP dealer. There are some good retailers out there (TLC Broadcast springs to mind) and the occasional branch of Richer Sounds where the offer to demo gear combines with a fair price, but we're talking of plain stupidity to think that for instance it's worth £800 to buy a Denon DVD2500BT from Sevenoaks in their "sale" when it's available for £600 from Richer Sounds the whole time.

Maybe it's a good thing we have this big discrepency, at least we're not harping on about price fixing at the moment, but don't call that 33% premium for going to Sevenoaks a fair price for "service". I think there will always be a debate around this. So don't get your knickers in a twist, this is just my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

Good point Will on the disparity.

I ended up buying a Denon 3808 receiver, which to my knowledge never even had a review done, it wasn't cheap but I went to the store and tried a few different ones out, including 5 star Onkyo's at the time.

It's all down to your ears, sure it's nice to have your choices seconded with a 5 star review - bit of reassurance that the hard earned you've just spent was worth it.

I remember about 5 yrs ago listening to a 5 star £1000 CD player and it was only marginally better than my now 15yr old Technics CD player, so it doesn't always compute.

 

[idc]

Professorhat makes many valid points re auditioning kit. The true audiophile will research, make selections and then audition. Auditioning kit is a joy and I have had excellent times in a variety of places from Richer Sounds to John Lewis and Loud&Clear. The latter even brought kit to me because in the end the best auditioning room is the one where your setup will be.

By the time I have got to the auditioning stage I have fully researched the kit I am likely to go for, and the price I will pay. I would never dream of auditioning somewhere I have no intention of buying. People who audition with no intention to buy are like the people who would try and return party dresses to the shop a friend worked in, which had clearly been worn. They would apparently wear them out for the night with the labels tucked out of site, with the intention of returning them to get their money back. I also know of someone who regarded 24 hour test drives as a free car hire service.

The research part of the process is important, and is why What Hifi is such a valuable tool. The star rating system is good. But by having most products bunched into the 4 and 5 star categories it risks becoming meaningless. The use of best buys and awards at least means there are another two levels of rating above 5 stars.

I don't follow why some people have been asking about how a £100 five star rates against a £1000 five star. Kit is clearly listed within various price ranges and the comparisons are made within each. If a piece of kit appears which punches way above its price, I trust What hifi to pick it out, tell us about it in the review and then give it an award. So for example; I would regard a lowest price range CD player that gets an award to be a competitor for products in the next price point up.In the end I have bought kit purely because of reviews and kit only after auditioning. The difference has been down to issues such as where I am living at the time and how expensive the purchase is.

But when researching I am much more interested in what the short review next to the star rating says than the star rating itself.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:
The true audiophile will research, make selections and then audition.

That's a bit unfair, Just because others have the luxury to do this does not meen they appreciate the equipment more.

 

[idc]

Del Smith:idc:

The true audiophile will research, make selections and then audition.

That's a bit unfair, Just because others have the luxury to do this does not meen they appreciate the equipment more.

Sorry, I do not want to come over as unfair. By 'true audiophile' I mean someone utterly dedicated to their hifi, it is their life, they take all aspects to the nth degree. Others (like me) will also do the same research etc, some of the time if they can.

Ironically a true audiophile may find more faults and get less satisfaction from their carefully conceived system than someone who walks into a newsagents, scans the star rating in What hifi, doen't even buy the magazine, then gets second hand kit off ebay, and loves it.

 

[Anonymous]

One other point I would like to add is being realistic about demo's.
For example if you wanted to demo 3 receivers and 3 sets of speakers then that's 9 different demo's to set up/wiring with different demo material to play and sources, other customers wanting their service and time in the demo room. Are there any shops that do this?

 

[Cofnchtr]

Hi,

Sevenoaks in Glasgow have a couple of demo rooms - the one I was in had several sets of speakers already in situ. I'm sure if you book an appointment with them and give advance notice of your requirements almost all dealers would be more than happy to assist in any and every way they can.

Cheers,

Cofnchtr.

 

[Anonymous]

Your own home is the answer, and many years of fun. Discussing with other fans like us I guess is the best way to learn more. Have to be practical in the end

 

[Anonymous]

How about a rating system like the one High Def Digest use, where everythin is broken down so you could have eg picture, sound, value, etc etc, i believe IGN also break down their rating into different sectors before giving an overall mark out of 10. So you could maybe have HD picture, SD picture, Sound, Value for money, Reliability...each given a score out of 10 or even 5 if you must stick to it and then a total score is given at the end as an average..i guess that would fit for TVs and Blu ray players really...

 

[Teeza]

This debate seems to have run it's course for the time being but I think there has been expressed sufficient support for additional information (to aid selection) for the WHF team to consider it at their leisure. The nub of the issue seems to be that there are "too many" products capable of getting 4 or 5 stars - surely the bar needs to be raised - 5 stars should mean outstanding amongst contemporaries.

That said there is still the problem of comparison across price boundaries.

WHF reviewers: how does the Yamaha 763 compare to the 863 in terms of sound quality with (stereo) music? I can see the difference in spec but have no concept of their relative merits on SQ.

 

[Andrew Everard]

 

[idc]

I rate the above image one star, or maybe even just half a star...hey thats an idea, introduce half stars and your rating system doubles to ten!

 

[Andrew Everard]

Been there, discussed that...

 

[Anonymous]

Clare Newsome:seakingadvice:Andrew Everard:
Big Aura:.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?

Erm, no.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Not the part about giving it away for free as we wouldn't want WHF to go out of business! But the part about having the entire magazine online. I believe some sites like Zinio do offer entire magazines online which are an exact duplicate of the hard copy magazine for a discounted price.

The upside is that WHF gets to save on production cost of the hard copy and can generate more subscribers by luring us in with the more attractive subscription price. For readers/subscribers, particularly those who are located overseas, we will be able to download the magazine for instant gratification and not depend on the postal service. Also, it makes storing back issues much easier. My collection of the hard copy magazine has been piling up and I'm running out of space! But, being the hoarder that I am, I can't bear to throw them away...

Win win proposition so please consider. Thanks!
We're ahead of you there - digital WHF (and Ultimate Guides) already up and running in trial mode, and we'll be doing a full launch soon....

Great! And will there be a free trial version? What's the proposed launch date for this new format?

 

[Clare Newsome]

All in good time.... We'll run a full news story plus flag it on the Forums, so you won't miss it.

 

[Big Chris]

seakingadvice:Andrew Everard:
Big Aura:.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?

Erm, no.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Not the part about giving it away for free as we wouldn't want WHF to go out of business! But the part about having the entire magazine online. I believe some sites like Zinio do offer entire magazines online which are an exact duplicate of the hard copy magazine for a discounted price.

The upside is that WHF gets to save on production cost of the hard copy and can generate more subscribers by luring us in with the more attractive subscription price. For readers/subscribers, particularly those who are located overseas, we will be able to download the magazine for instant gratification and not depend on the postal service. Also, it makes storing back issues much easier. My collection of the hard copy magazine has been piling up and I'm running out of space! But, being the hoarder that I am, I can't bear to throw them away...

Win win proposition so please consider. Thanks!

But then how do I read it on the loo?

 

[Clare Newsome]

Don't worry, the traditional magazines - the bathroom browse of choice - aren't going anywhere

 

[Andrew Everard]

Big Chris:But then how do I read it on the loo?

This seems made - and indeed named - for the task...

 

[Anonymous]

Del Smith:What actualy happened was I couldn't find a shop local that could provide a demo but found one that offered to let you take it for a home trial after paying the deposit. But as the item could be found cheaper online I didn't go for it, unless they were prepared to match the price which they weren't so effectively It would have cost £200 for the privolage. Therefore my point was that the rating system I think helps a lot.

The rating system can never be more than an arbitrary guide as to what experienced listeners/reviewers feel is good, given the subjective nature of preferences and influences, making it more complex would serve no purpose at all except to appease those that can't appreciate it's flaws. Evan the review, detailed, suggestive and layered it may be, should be taken only as a guide of where to start and what to shortlist.

You state you want to demo the kit, demo is a service that costs someone money, rent, rates, tax, heating, electricity, staffing, more tax, wear & tear, training, more tax, and so on. We all want a good deal, but too many of us- and I can be just as fallible- can get hung up on "rip-off britain" paranoia and place too much emphasis on price alone.

Try this analogy; many employers use agencies to "trial" new staff at high rates then pay fee's to employ then, a process which costs thousands over employing direct, but through which the employer can assess the new employee at work before committing to a contract of employment. Your £200 is to assess the kit and decide if it really suits you and to many, it's worth the asking.

 

[Anonymous]

Fine if people are willing to pay an extra 20% to assess an item but personally I think that's just too much, and they've lost a sale and possibly future items I will purchase which I would say will be a fair amount over the next couple of years. I wonder how many people have test driven a car and paid 20% for the privolage.

 

[Anonymous]

Del Smith:Fine if people are willing to pay an extra 20% to assess an item but personally I think that's just too much, and they've lost a sale and possibly future items I will purchase which I would say will be a fair amount over the next couple of years. I wonder how many people have test driven a car and paid 20% for the privolage.

you can order a new car at big discount, too. you won't be offered a test drive but you will get a good price. If the car had 5 star reviews but you find there's something you don't like about it... tough.

The question is, how important is your audio equipment to you? How much do you want to have the right sound? Is there an emotional aspect thats worth mere $$ to "get right" or is it a product like a dishwasher that comes down to paper specs and bang-for-buck?