Davo2008:
Thanks Clare. By the way, did that £3.99 cable ever turn up? Don't forget to let us know when the test has been done!
Yep, it's here - and the seller has included some other bargain bits and pieces to test, too. Watch this space!
Thanks Clare. By the way, did that £3.99 cable ever turn up? Don't forget to let us know when the test has been done!
Yep, it's here - and the seller has included some other bargain bits and pieces to test, too. Watch this space!
Alec
Well-known member
now, you all know i dislike sycophants who rush to whf's defence every 5 minutes, but...c'mon, the "5 stars for adverts" thing really is getting very old. it comes down to this:
you have a suspicion;
you voice it;
it gets comprehensively knocked down;
you believe the answer, or you do not.
i choose to, as its pointless anyone telling porkies and possibly ruinous.
I repeat - its really old and really boring.
P.S. ive already told you all the result of that cheap cable test. there'll be a few miffed punters ROFL!
and for the record im against any ratings move that makes the buying guide bigger, and think the ratings are pretty fine as they are. as i said.
you have a suspicion;
you voice it;
it gets comprehensively knocked down;
you believe the answer, or you do not.
i choose to, as its pointless anyone telling porkies and possibly ruinous.
I repeat - its really old and really boring.
P.S. ive already told you all the result of that cheap cable test. there'll be a few miffed punters ROFL!
and for the record im against any ratings move that makes the buying guide bigger, and think the ratings are pretty fine as they are. as i said.
Hi Clare,
I have a suggestion for improvement which I hope will be viable to implement. Can the WHF team also have a section here on the website for the results of the Supertests over the last 12 months? No need to replicate what is in the magazine but say just have a summary of what equipment was tested and state who's the winner. This would supplement the awards and stars ratings as well and provide an additional data point.
I have a suggestion for improvement which I hope will be viable to implement. Can the WHF team also have a section here on the website for the results of the Supertests over the last 12 months? No need to replicate what is in the magazine but say just have a summary of what equipment was tested and state who's the winner. This would supplement the awards and stars ratings as well and provide an additional data point.
Hi Clare,
Another request. I remember that the recent AV Group Test between the Yamaha 3900, Onkyo 906 and Pioneer 81 had this little summary at the end with separate ratings of all the different criteria like features, etc. Can we have that published together with in online reviews as well? Not asking WHF to do anything that it doesn't already do but to publish more information online when it becomes available. This would further improve on what is already a great site! Keep up the good work!
Another request. I remember that the recent AV Group Test between the Yamaha 3900, Onkyo 906 and Pioneer 81 had this little summary at the end with separate ratings of all the different criteria like features, etc. Can we have that published together with in online reviews as well? Not asking WHF to do anything that it doesn't already do but to publish more information online when it becomes available. This would further improve on what is already a great site! Keep up the good work!
Both suggestions will be passed on, but due to the way the site is built adding in those elements could prove rather expensive, and in the current economic climate - to quote the cliche of the moment - that may prove tricky.
Big Aura
Well-known member
.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?
Big Aura:.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?
Erm, no.
Erm, no.
I do believe that a greater range of scores, for example percentage would be of benefit to people agonising over what equipment to short list.
It would be entirely possible, if not probable to have ten, 5 star pieces of equipment, however, as the group tests sometimes show, not all 5 star items are identical. It would be possible to have one 5 star piece of equipment that is fairly lower in performance than the top 5 star piece of equipment, yet the reader would not know this from the reviews, unless there has been a group test carried out.
With a percentage system, 80% and up could relate to the current 5 star system, but it would be very easy to tell the difference between an 80% piece of equipment and a 95% piece of equipment, dont you agree?
I do understand that manufacturers do like the 5 star system, as its very usable for them to use in their packaging, but theres always a way around this.
Just my tuppence worth and keep up the good work
It would be entirely possible, if not probable to have ten, 5 star pieces of equipment, however, as the group tests sometimes show, not all 5 star items are identical. It would be possible to have one 5 star piece of equipment that is fairly lower in performance than the top 5 star piece of equipment, yet the reader would not know this from the reviews, unless there has been a group test carried out.
With a percentage system, 80% and up could relate to the current 5 star system, but it would be very easy to tell the difference between an 80% piece of equipment and a 95% piece of equipment, dont you agree?
I do understand that manufacturers do like the 5 star system, as its very usable for them to use in their packaging, but theres always a way around this.
Just my tuppence worth and keep up the good work
I agree with you there a percentage system would work better I believe "Which" magazine use that system, though not certain. But it does make a lot more sense as 81% to 100% is 5 star rating it gives you a more realistic range for showing the differences in what would be the same rating for possibly 5 or 6 different products.
I know poeple working on magazines where they use/used a percentage rating, and believe you me there's nothing terribly scientific in how the number is arrived at. The process is usually akin to starting with a score out of five, then doing a bit of (fairly arbitrary) juggling of digits.
And no, I'm not naming names, but we're not talking hi-fi mags here.
And no, I'm not naming names, but we're not talking hi-fi mags here.
Andrew, how do you do your rating of, say, an AV amp? I presume the team rates in different areas, such as features, 5.1 sound quality, stereo performance, value for money, ergonomics etc so wouldn't it be easy to publish the scores in each area, as a percentage or whatever, then allocate an overall figure?
I'm guessing here, since the site doesn't really explain how you reach your verdicts, and I don't have a copy of the magazine.
Also, any chance of getting guest reviewers in? A few of us here have more time than we know what to do with at the moment, and our price would be a modest cup of nescaf‚ and some wholemeal biscuits....
I'm guessing here, since the site doesn't really explain how you reach your verdicts, and I don't have a copy of the magazine.
Also, any chance of getting guest reviewers in? A few of us here have more time than we know what to do with at the moment, and our price would be a modest cup of nescaf‚ and some wholemeal biscuits....
Tarquinh:Andrew, how do you do your rating of, say, an AV amp? I presume the team rates in different areas, such as features, 5.1 sound quality, stereo performance, value for money, ergonomics etc
Yes, that's what happens.
Tarquinh:and I don't have a copy of the magazine.
All good newsagents and supermarkets stock it.
Tarquinh:Also,
any chance of getting guest reviewers in? A few of us here have more
time than we know what to do with at the moment, and our price would be
a modest cup of nescaf‚ and some wholemeal biscuits....
As stated in the past, there are ideas for greater reader involvement - watch this space.
Yes, that's what happens.
Tarquinh:and I don't have a copy of the magazine.
All good newsagents and supermarkets stock it.
Tarquinh:Also,
any chance of getting guest reviewers in? A few of us here have more
time than we know what to do with at the moment, and our price would be
a modest cup of nescaf‚ and some wholemeal biscuits....
As stated in the past, there are ideas for greater reader involvement - watch this space.
As has been mentioned with stars and prices before perhaps some sort of what it's worth value should be placed on the reviews. So if you have a 4 star bit of kit selling for £600 maybe saying that if it was £400 it would be 'worth' 5 stars. Seeing as stars must ultimately relate to the price of a product.
I would like to add regarding the best way of deciding is to demo it for yourself.
I've found it very difficult to demo a short list of AV receivers although would like to without putting down a deposit first and then commited to buying from that shop or loose the deposit, even if I could find somewhere that was willing to set up different demo's for me I would most likely be able to get the item elsewhere cheaper,so what do you say, thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere.
Therefore for me the rating system is what swings it, and so far so good.
I would like to see a mix of systems in the mag, i.e 5 star recievers with 4 star speakers, or 5 star speakers with 4 star receivers etc how they compare.
I've found it very difficult to demo a short list of AV receivers although would like to without putting down a deposit first and then commited to buying from that shop or loose the deposit, even if I could find somewhere that was willing to set up different demo's for me I would most likely be able to get the item elsewhere cheaper,so what do you say, thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere.
Therefore for me the rating system is what swings it, and so far so good.
I would like to see a mix of systems in the mag, i.e 5 star recievers with 4 star speakers, or 5 star speakers with 4 star receivers etc how they compare.
Andrew Everard:
I know poeple working on magazines where they use/used a percentage rating, and believe you me there's nothing terribly scientific in how the number is arrived at. The process is usually akin to starting with a score out of five, then doing a bit of (fairly arbitrary) juggling of digits.
And no, I'm not naming names, but we're not talking hi-fi mags here.
LOL Andrew, i'm not suggesting that you arrive by your scores by anything other than your normal method, just broaden the scope so that us "mere mortals" can tell the difference between endless reams of 4/5 star products!!!!!!
I know poeple working on magazines where they use/used a percentage rating, and believe you me there's nothing terribly scientific in how the number is arrived at. The process is usually akin to starting with a score out of five, then doing a bit of (fairly arbitrary) juggling of digits.
And no, I'm not naming names, but we're not talking hi-fi mags here.
LOL Andrew, i'm not suggesting that you arrive by your scores by anything other than your normal method, just broaden the scope so that us "mere mortals" can tell the difference between endless reams of 4/5 star products!!!!!!
I think that's just a reflection of the fact that everything is pretty good these days, and choosing between products is more a matter of personal taste. That's something we try to dial out in our reviews, with the thinking that this may not appeal to buyer X, but it will be ideal for buyer Y...
Andrew Everard:Both suggestions will be passed on, but due to the way the site is built adding in those elements could prove rather expensive, and in the current economic climate - to quote the cliche of the moment - that may prove tricky.
Thanks for considering the suggestions.
Maybe a quick and economical way to incorporate the Group Test suggestion would be to just create a sticky locked thread here in the forum? Or it could just be a post in the reviews section just like any other review. We'll settle for function over form in this tough economic climate.
Thanks for considering the suggestions.
Maybe a quick and economical way to incorporate the Group Test suggestion would be to just create a sticky locked thread here in the forum? Or it could just be a post in the reviews section just like any other review. We'll settle for function over form in this tough economic climate.
Andrew Everard:
Big Aura:.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?
Erm, no.
Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Not the part about giving it away for free as we wouldn't want WHF to go out of business! But the part about having the entire magazine online. I believe some sites like Zinio do offer entire magazines online which are an exact duplicate of the hard copy magazine for a discounted price.
The upside is that WHF gets to save on production cost of the hard copy and can generate more subscribers by luring us in with the more attractive subscription price. For readers/subscribers, particularly those who are located overseas, we will be able to download the magazine for instant gratification and not depend on the postal service. Also, it makes storing back issues much easier. My collection of the hard copy magazine has been piling up and I'm running out of space! But, being the hoarder that I am, I can't bear to throw them away...
Win win proposition so please consider. Thanks!
Big Aura:.... and can you make the entire magazine available free on line to save me having to pay subscription?
Erm, no.
Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Not the part about giving it away for free as we wouldn't want WHF to go out of business! But the part about having the entire magazine online. I believe some sites like Zinio do offer entire magazines online which are an exact duplicate of the hard copy magazine for a discounted price.
The upside is that WHF gets to save on production cost of the hard copy and can generate more subscribers by luring us in with the more attractive subscription price. For readers/subscribers, particularly those who are located overseas, we will be able to download the magazine for instant gratification and not depend on the postal service. Also, it makes storing back issues much easier. My collection of the hard copy magazine has been piling up and I'm running out of space! But, being the hoarder that I am, I can't bear to throw them away...
Win win proposition so please consider. Thanks!
professorhat
Well-known member
Del Smith:I've found it very difficult to demo a short list of AV receivers although would like to without putting down a deposit first and then commited to buying from that shop or loose the deposit, even if I could find somewhere that was willing to set up different demo's for me I would most likely be able to get the item elsewhere cheaper,so what do you say, thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere.
Well, you see, your two comments here illustrate the issue. In my mind, no way should a shop charge for a demo. That's ridiculous, especially if they offer you a money back promise if you decide to buy that item. This makes no sense, if I knew I wanted to buy that item, I wouldn't be asking for a demo.
However, your statement about how you can find it cheaper elsewhere so "thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere" illustrates clearly why high street shops might have to start charging for demos. If the attitude of, let's go down the dealer, have a listen, then go and buy it for a few quid cheaper online reigns, then the only way the dealer can survive is to only offer the demo option to people who will commit to actually buying from them. Otherwise it's not fair, online retailers who offer none of the service of your high street dealer make all the money and the high street dealer is left out of pocket and thus, eventually, out of business.
Until people realise service is worth paying a bit extra for, I can actually see a point where this will happen everywhere and it will actually cost you to get a demo of something just because the retailer can't trust you to do the decent thing and not go off and buy the product he's helped you to choose online so you can save a few quid. As usual, it's the greed of the few which will detriment the majority.
Well, you see, your two comments here illustrate the issue. In my mind, no way should a shop charge for a demo. That's ridiculous, especially if they offer you a money back promise if you decide to buy that item. This makes no sense, if I knew I wanted to buy that item, I wouldn't be asking for a demo.
However, your statement about how you can find it cheaper elsewhere so "thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere" illustrates clearly why high street shops might have to start charging for demos. If the attitude of, let's go down the dealer, have a listen, then go and buy it for a few quid cheaper online reigns, then the only way the dealer can survive is to only offer the demo option to people who will commit to actually buying from them. Otherwise it's not fair, online retailers who offer none of the service of your high street dealer make all the money and the high street dealer is left out of pocket and thus, eventually, out of business.
Until people realise service is worth paying a bit extra for, I can actually see a point where this will happen everywhere and it will actually cost you to get a demo of something just because the retailer can't trust you to do the decent thing and not go off and buy the product he's helped you to choose online so you can save a few quid. As usual, it's the greed of the few which will detriment the majority.
Alec
Well-known member
professorhat:
Del Smith:I've found it very difficult to demo a short list of AV receivers although would like to without putting down a deposit first and then commited to buying from that shop or loose the deposit, even if I could find somewhere that was willing to set up different demo's for me I would most likely be able to get the item elsewhere cheaper,so what do you say, thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere.
Well, you see, your two comments here illustrate the issue. In my mind, no way should a shop charge for a demo. That's ridiculous, especially if they offer you a money back promise if you decide to buy that item. This makes no sense, if I knew I wanted to buy that item, I wouldn't be asking for a demo.
However, your statement about how you can find it cheaper elsewhere so "thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere" illustrates clearly why high street shops might have to start charging for demos. If the attitude of, let's go down the dealer, have a listen, then go and buy it for a few quid cheaper online reigns, then the only way the dealer can survive is to only offer the demo option to people who will commit to actually buying from them. Otherwise it's not fair, online retailers who offer none of the service of your high street dealer make all the money and the high street dealer is left out of pocket and thus, eventually, out of business.
Until people realise service is worth paying a bit extra for, I can actually see a point where this will happen everywhere and it will actually cost you to get a demo of something just because the retailer can't trust you to do the decent thing and not go off and buy the product he's helped you to choose online so you can save a few quid. As usual, it's the greed of the few which will detriment the majority.
But if this actually happenned, they would have to charge enough to make people think twice aqbout losing that money. you might then see the better off factoring those costs in, and therefore being prepared to walk away, and the less well off (majority) just buying blind online anyway. I dont think that would do the whole AV industry any good*
* This may all be irrelevant as we are pretty hardcore compared to joe public who doesnt care much for auditioning anyway.
Del Smith:I've found it very difficult to demo a short list of AV receivers although would like to without putting down a deposit first and then commited to buying from that shop or loose the deposit, even if I could find somewhere that was willing to set up different demo's for me I would most likely be able to get the item elsewhere cheaper,so what do you say, thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere.
Well, you see, your two comments here illustrate the issue. In my mind, no way should a shop charge for a demo. That's ridiculous, especially if they offer you a money back promise if you decide to buy that item. This makes no sense, if I knew I wanted to buy that item, I wouldn't be asking for a demo.
However, your statement about how you can find it cheaper elsewhere so "thanks for that I'll now buy it elsewhere" illustrates clearly why high street shops might have to start charging for demos. If the attitude of, let's go down the dealer, have a listen, then go and buy it for a few quid cheaper online reigns, then the only way the dealer can survive is to only offer the demo option to people who will commit to actually buying from them. Otherwise it's not fair, online retailers who offer none of the service of your high street dealer make all the money and the high street dealer is left out of pocket and thus, eventually, out of business.
Until people realise service is worth paying a bit extra for, I can actually see a point where this will happen everywhere and it will actually cost you to get a demo of something just because the retailer can't trust you to do the decent thing and not go off and buy the product he's helped you to choose online so you can save a few quid. As usual, it's the greed of the few which will detriment the majority.
But if this actually happenned, they would have to charge enough to make people think twice aqbout losing that money. you might then see the better off factoring those costs in, and therefore being prepared to walk away, and the less well off (majority) just buying blind online anyway. I dont think that would do the whole AV industry any good*
* This may all be irrelevant as we are pretty hardcore compared to joe public who doesnt care much for auditioning anyway.
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