Interconnect advice

[the record spot]

Kevin Stephens:
Cheap or old cables stifle good components..

Conclusion: baloney (with respect!).

Cheap cables well constructed can be the equal of those more expensive ones doing the same job out there. So yer tenner phono wire can easily do the same job, with no detrimental impact, than one ten times the dealer cost.

This is about like with like, not bell-wire to single core copper we're talking here.

You're on the money with the profit margin on cables right enough, so enquire what your £70 gets you? A £10-£20 cable in a nice box with a huge dealer margin? That cheapo wire suddenly seems more competitive than at first glance...

 

[Craig M.]

i've certainly heard differences between interconnects. the one and only time i compared, my local shop lent me a few chord ones to compare to the atlas questor i already had. i had no idea what they cost, if they had good reviews and was not particularly impressed by their feel/appearance - i thought the atlas felt more substantial. to me, they all sounded different - as if different parts of the frequency range were being slightly boosted.

i'm not in the slightest convinced though, that blind testing is that important. i recently did an online 'blind' test involving colours. even though there was a clearly visible difference between the shades of blue when they were side by side, i could not reliably remember which was which when it came to the 'blind' test. so that's a clear difference that i couldn't reliably differentiate, unless they were next to each other. don't see why audio memory should be any different.

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:
i've certainly heard differences between interconnects. the one and only time i compared, my local shop lent me a few chord ones to compare to the atlas questor i already had. i had no idea what they cost, if they had good reviews and was not particularly impressed by their feel/appearance - i thought the atlas felt more substantial. to me, they all sounded different - as if different parts of the frequency range were being slightly boosted.

i'm not in the slightest convinced though, that blind testing is that important. i recently did an online 'blind' test involving colours. even though there was a clearly visible difference between the shades of blue when they were side by side, i could not reliably remember which was which when it came to the 'blind' test. so that's a clear difference that i couldn't reliably differentiate, unless they were next to each other. don't see why audio memory should be any different.

Given your comments about audio memory, then how could you tell if a cable sounded different? Or are you saying that without visual clues we cannot distinguish between cables?

Genuine curiosity, by the way: I couldn't distinguish the difference sighted or unsighted reliably over a weekend of testing.

 

[Craig M.]

there's the rub. i was looking to change the questor as after a while of owning my dac, i was finding it a touch lean and bright and it really hadn't been when i demoed it in the shop, the only difference was the interconnect and speaker cable. i decided to try some interconnects and got 3 different pairs from a local shop, the differences seemed apparent as soon as i changed them. to varying degrees the issues i had were sorted out, but the upper and lower frequencies seemed artificial, somehow (best way i can describe it). but, i think the differences were small enough that i would only have thought i would stand a chance of picking one of them out blind.

i compared each one to my questor on seperate days, just listened to some music, made note of what i wasn't happy with and then changed the ic and again just listened to music, i didn't sit there fremer style - a picture of concentration, just waited to see if after a while the same problems rose. i sometimes think the act of actively comparing gets in the way.

incidently, once i had decided to get the same ic as used in the dac demo, i sold my questor on ebay and found a review to include that i had genuinely never seen, it said the questor was a touch lean and bright!

 

[JoelSim]

What is it with people thinking that every cable is a rip off?

In the same way as most products on the market, the price is decided by a combination of factors, some of which are material, and some of which are time costs ie R&D, marketing, quality control etc etc.

Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it is not accurately priced for what goes into the manufacturing life cycle.

For goodness' sake!

 

[aliEnRIK]

JoelSim:
What is it with people thinking that every cable is a rip off?

In the same way as most products on the market, the price is decided by a combination of factors, some of which are material, and some of which are time costs ie R&D, marketing, quality control etc etc.

Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it is not accurately priced for what goes into the manufacturing life cycle.

For goodness' sake!

Im sorry Joel but I have to disagree. I know where your coming from and forgetting whether or not cables make any discernable difference to listeners for a minute. The vast majority of the 'big name' manufacturers are total RIP OFFS. As a generalised example, a 500 quid 'big name' cable probably costs less than 100 to make

 

[SonofSun]

JoelSim:
What is it with people thinking that every cable is a rip off?

In the same way as most products on the market, the price is decided by a combination of factors, some of which are material, and some of which are time costs ie R&D, marketing, quality control etc etc.

Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it is not accurately priced for what goes into the manufacturing life cycle.

For goodness' sake!

If you want to spend your money on esoteric cables, that is your prerogative. However, the whole idea of a forum is to bring people together with different opinions.

Surely though, you cannot deny that these cable companies must be making a fantastic mark up on "some" of these cables. Essentially the components are the same and the sound differences are subtle (if any).

I can't imagine there is that much R&D money going into these cables, more likely the majority of money goes into the packaging/brightly coloured exteriors and marketing.

Each to his own though, and may the debate long continue.

Chillax

 

[Kevin Stephens]

I was a sceptic re cables but the ascertion that "sound differences are subtle (if any)" is completely ad odds with the differences I found during my mini review. They were more in line with what I would have expected frm paying, say £300 more on an amplifier and in that way they are good value to me.

You could argue the same for the low cost of capacitors and transistors used in your esteemed anplifiers, after all the cost of soldering them to a pcb and putting them in a box (especially if in China) is dirt cheap

The £100 to £500 ratio is typical if not even understated for many technical products these days (I would suspect it is more ofter 10:1), the material and labour costs are small compared to research, marketing and retail margins. Too many people underestimate the importance of these non direct costs in getting a product to you that does the job (bizzarley even those of us who make a living doing work other than direct manufacturing!!)

ANyway I hadn't intended to start an argument over real or imagined benefiys of bits of wire; next time you have a rainy weekend forecast borrow some mid and high end cables fro your dealer and get stuck in - it's free (asuming you don't buy one) and more enlightening (either way) than speciluating on internet forums

 

[Anonymous]

Kevin Stephens:
I was a sceptic re cables but the ascertion that "sound differences are subtle (if any)" is completely ad odds with the differences I found during my mini review. They were more in line with what I would have expected frm paying, say £300 more on an amplifier and in that way they are good value to me.

You could argue the same for the low cost of capacitors and transistors used in your esteemed anplifiers, after all the cost of soldering them to a pcb and putting them in a box (especially if in China) is dirt cheap

The £100 to £500 ratio is typical if not even understated for many technical products these days (I would suspect it is more ofter 10:1), the material and labour costs are small compared to research, marketing and retail margins. Too many people underestimate the importance of these non direct costs in getting a product to you that does the job (bizzarley even those of us who make a living doing work other than direct manufacturing!!)

ANyway I hadn't intended to start an argument over real or imagined benefiys of bits of wire; next time you have a rainy weekend forecast borrow some mid and high end cables fro your dealer and get stuck in - it's free (asuming you don't buy one) and more enlightening (either way) than speciluating on internet forums

Kevin, I really can't agree with any of the points you make. I've just tried extensively cables over a wide price range and found negligible differences, and certainly nowhere near the difference I'd hear if spending more on an amplifier. I've also tested amps recently and found, unsurprisingly, there are noticeable differences between different brands even at the same price level.

Finally, many cable marketers buy the wire, if not the cables in, so their R&D costs are negligible. It really is marketing and economics, where the simple rule is you charge what the market will bear.

I'm glad you like your cables, and hope they'll last as long as your CA ones.

 

[vonchief]

I recently changed my expensive chord and Van den hul cables for Van Damme UP LC OFC speaker cable and interconnects.

The idea was to swap to no nonsense cables,sell the expensive ones to raise cash for future up-grads and admit that i had been foolish buying such over priced cables in the past.

Trouble was, even though the Van damme was OK they were such a down grade i quickly put my other cables back.

I wont bore you with the changes i heard but to me cables do make all the difference and i now feel the extra outlay is well worth it.

 

[shooter]

vonchief:
I recently changed my expensive chord and Van den hul cables for Van Damme UP LC OFC speaker cable and interconnects.

The idea was to swap to no nonsense cables,sell the expensive ones to raise cash for future up-grads and admit that i had been foolish buying such over priced cables in the past.

Trouble was, even though the Van damme was OK they were such a down grade i quickly put my other cables back.

I wont bore you with the changes i heard but to me cables do make all the difference and i now feel the extra outlay is well worth it.

A lot of forum users like these cables and i've ruffled feathers before (sorry to you guys!) but they are for professional applications were durability is the main factor. They need to be flexible and work, thats it. 20k rigs at festivals and the like don't come close to home audio were highly individual sonics are refined using cable, Kevin has demonstrated this with his choice of cable to match his system, thank goodness he never went with mine!

 

[idc]

Tarquinh is correct, you do not know where the actual cable comes from. On another forum I have had a very interesting chat with someone who said he went to the Belden College of Wire in Richmond USA. I thought he was joking but no...clicky

Belden make cables for all sorts of other companies, including audiophile. During the lessons they had a good laugh at the audiophile market. An executive with the company has admitted to the Audio Engineering Society that they will sell directional cables, even though their own blind tests failed to establish such a thing.

So your audiophile cable may have been originally made by Belden, dressed up and sold on at a fat profit. Caveat emptor.

 

[Anonymous]

Whether different cables make a different sound is irrelevant when considering their value. I've never doubted that a lot of cables are overpriced and are likely to have a huge margin as compared to other products. What remains is that some work better than others in a given system for a user. Some don't seem to sound any different to others.

The SHB cables appear to represent excellent value for money and seem to be at the opposite end of the scale to similar products from Nordost. That's just one example of how cost isn't directly linked to performance.

 

[the record spot]

JoelSim:
What is it with people thinking that every cable is a rip off?

In the same way as most products on the market, the price is decided by a combination of factors, some of which are material, and some of which are time costs ie R&D, marketing, quality control etc etc.

Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it is not accurately priced for what goes into the manufacturing life cycle.

For goodness' sake!

Hmmm, let's see shall we? Yes, let's!

Material - 5%
R&D - 3% (known quantity right?)
Marketing - 87%
QC - 5%

Or...I happened upon a chance encounter at a well known company just the other day and overheard this conversation which I've reproduced below. The names have been changed to protect the guilty and actors voices are used throughout:-

Cable Jockey 1: "Did you get the materiel?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup"
Cable Jockey 1: "Did you do the R&D like I told you?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup; well, I read something off the web..."
Cable Jockey 1: "Did we put out loads of ads, send freebies to the hacks, make the box look nice with lots of diagrams and use that new braided sleeving?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup - and we've got a nice pink shade for the women"
Cable Jockey 1: "Great idea, market share goes up and Clare at What the Hell'll love it. What's the story on the Quality Control front?"
Cable Jockey 2: "You mean did I plug it in chief?"
Cable Jockey 1: "That'll be it"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup, done that"
Cable Jockey 1: "We're good to go, roll 'em!"

 

[Anonymous]

Manufacturers making claims about products doesn't make their claims true. Just look at AVI.

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:JoelSim:
What is it with people thinking that every cable is a rip off?

In the same way as most products on the market, the price is decided by a combination of factors, some of which are material, and some of which are time costs ie R&D, marketing, quality control etc etc.

Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it is not accurately priced for what goes into the manufacturing life cycle.

For goodness' sake!

Hmmm, let's see shall we? Yes, let's!

Material - 5%
R&D - 3% (known quantity right?)
Marketing - 87%
QC - 5%

Or...I happened upon a chance encounter at a well known company just the other day and overheard this conversation which I've reproduced below. The names have been changed to protect the guilty and actors voices are used throughout:-

Cable Jockey 1: "Did you get the materiel?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup"
Cable Jockey 1: "Did you do the R&D like I told you?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup; well, I read something off the web..."
Cable Jockey 1: "Did we put out loads of ads, send freebies to the hacks, make the box look nice with lots of diagrams and use that new braided sleeving?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup - and we've got a nice pink shade for the women"
Cable Jockey 1: "Great idea, market share goes up and Clare at What the Hell'll love it. What's the story on the Quality Control front?"
Cable Jockey 2: "You mean did I plug it in chief?"
Cable Jockey 1: "That'll be it"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup, done that"
Cable Jockey 1: "We're good to go, roll 'em!"

It's not as if cables are exclusively guilty of such approaches. The mark up on nearly everything is very high, not just cables.

 

[the record spot]

igglebert:Manufacturers making claims about products doesn't make their claims true. Just look at AVI.

I predict a riot...

 

[the record spot]

igglebert:Manufacturers making claims about products doesn't make their claims true. Just look at AVI.

Yep, fair comment, the cost of a shiny metal box can be quite a bit, though with some kit, it's worth the premium - not quite sure how that ties in with the rationale about cables though...when I get my dual mono powered amp, typically not many weighing less than 40lbs or more, I get why I might pay a premium for that for example. When I buy my Nordost SuperPricey, or worse some of the Audio Note wires that nudges four figures, you kind of wonder...

 

[shooter]

the record spot:JoelSim:
What is it with people thinking that every cable is a rip off?

In the same way as most products on the market, the price is decided by a combination of factors, some of which are material, and some of which are time costs ie R&D, marketing, quality control etc etc.

Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it is not accurately priced for what goes into the manufacturing life cycle.

For goodness' sake!

Hmmm, let's see shall we? Yes, let's!

Material - 5%
R&D - 3% (known quantity right?)
Marketing - 87%
QC - 5%

Or...I happened upon a chance encounter at a well known company just the other day and overheard this conversation which I've reproduced below. The names have been changed to protect the guilty and actors voices are used throughout:-

Cable Jockey 1: "Did you get the materiel?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup"
Cable Jockey 1: "Did you do the R&D like I told you?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup; well, I read something off the web..."
Cable Jockey 1: "Did we put out loads of ads, send freebies to the hacks, make the box look nice with lots of diagrams and use that new braided sleeving?"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup - and we've got a nice pink shade for the women"
Cable Jockey 1: "Great idea, market share goes up and Clare at What the Hell'll love it. What's the story on the Quality Control front?"
Cable Jockey 2: "You mean did I plug it in chief?"
Cable Jockey 1: "That'll be it"
Cable Jockey 2: "Yup, done that"
Cable Jockey 1: "We're good to go, roll 'em!"

Very good RS, but still manufacturers or individuals alike are in this game to profit. Yes this could be hard to swallow but it is true and the mark up on cable can be extravagant to say the least but if we the public like what we hear and we want to pay the money! I'm under no illusion that there is a mark up on cable. I've paid for expensive cable and go shot of it because its rubbish (iv'e posted my finding on these forums) but i've also used expensive cable that has blown away cheaper cable. Personally i don't care what it cost (i bye pre-owned usually) if it works for me and its within a budget.....

 

[shooter]

igglebert:The mark up on nearly everything is very high, not just cables.

Yes and i was only thinking this morning when i plugged in my new £20 electric tooth brush how much more work can there be in an £80 electric toothbrush. Hmmm.

 

[SonofSun]

Kevin Stephens:
I was a sceptic re cables but the ascertion that "sound differences are subtle (if any)" is completely ad odds with the differences I found during my mini review. They were more in line with what I would have expected frm paying, say £300 more on an amplifier and in that way they are good value to me.

Good for you.

The difficulty of testing cables as I see it, is the plugging in and unplugging. By the time this has been done, I will have forgotten what the original cable sounded like. The only way to test, would be to have two identical sources (which I don't have) and switch input on the amplifier.

I have noticed the difference between speaker cable, but this was
because one was copper and the other a thin silver.

People are free to spend their money in any which way they choose.

 

[Kevin Stephens]

For those interested there is an interesting comparison of Chord Chorus 2 vs home made interconnects here http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/chord_cables_e.html

 

[idc]

igglebert:Whether different cables make a different sound is irrelevant when considering their value. ......

That would be true if cable makers made no claims about the sound of their cables and sold them on their design, looks or whatever. But since they all make claims about the sound, it is very relevant, especially when tow identically made cables have huge price differences.

 

[idc]

SonofSun:.......
The difficulty of testing cables as I see it, is the plugging in and unplugging. By the time this has been done, I will have forgotten what the original cable sounded like......

This argument of lack of a memory of sound does not work for me. We do remember sounds otherwise how do we recognise them? If you cannot detect a difference in sound between two cables after a swap, then I say there is either no difference or it is so small as to be not an issue, not that you have forgotten what the last one sounded like. That is particularly true of tracks you are familiar with.

 

[Kevin Stephens]

Tarquinh:Kevin Stephens:

I was a sceptic re cables but the ascertion that "sound differences are subtle (if any)" is completely ad odds with the differences I found during my mini review. They were more in line with what I would have expected frm paying, say £300 more on an amplifier and in that way they are good value to me.

You could argue the same for the low cost of capacitors and transistors used in your esteemed anplifiers, after all the cost of soldering them to a pcb and putting them in a box (especially if in China) is dirt cheap

The £100 to £500 ratio is typical if not even understated for many technical products these days (I would suspect it is more ofter 10:1), the material and labour costs are small compared to research, marketing and retail margins. Too many people underestimate the importance of these non direct costs in getting a product to you that does the job (bizzarley even those of us who make a living doing work other than direct manufacturing!!)

ANyway I hadn't intended to start an argument over real or imagined benefiys of bits of wire; next time you have a rainy weekend forecast borrow some mid and high end cables fro your dealer and get stuck in - it's free (asuming you don't buy one) and more enlightening (either way) than speciluating on internet forums

Kevin, I really can't agree with any of the points you make. I've just tried extensively cables over a wide price range and found negligible differences, and certainly nowhere near the difference I'd hear if spending more on an amplifier. I've also tested amps recently and found, unsurprisingly, there are noticeable differences between different brands even at the same price level.

Finally, many cable marketers buy the wire, if not the cables in, so their R&D costs are negligible. It really is marketing and economics, where the simple rule is you charge what the market will bear.

I'm glad you like your cables, and hope they'll last as long as your CA ones.

Tarquin, this cable business is quite simple to me. Interconnects cannot "add" anything to sound, they can only distort and/or attenuate frequencies which are already there in accordance with their electrical properties. My original system was fine with the CA cables but when I upgraded my CD, amp, and particulalry speakers I was rewarded with much greater frequency range. Unfortunately the CA cables were unable to handle the new higher notes without distorting them, hence Joni Mitchell's shrillness whilst the reduced spectrum of sound from my otherwise excellent fm tuner still sounds ok with the CAs. The Chameleon did not distort the extreme high/low frequencies but attenuated them somewhat compared to the Chorus 2. I would have been happy to get the same result using cheaper cables but was not aware of any. As to comments re advertising and packaging; completely over my head - I arrived at my shortlist from searching this forum.

I don't believer that cables can enhance sound, rather that poor or unsuitable cables can diminish quality by distortion, attenuation etc. If you cannot find any difference wiht cables then you are fortunate in your system not suffering from the problems I needed to overcome. As such interconnect choice comes down to system matching rather than intrinsic sound quality