Integrated with DAC on board... why the hate?

[insider9]

Are you refering to my findings?

It all too easy to dismiss DACs on that basis, agreed. I do my best to level match with a mic if comparing DACs but usually find it best to do it over days and weeks as opposed to quick A/B.

The kicker for me is that also different digital inputs can sound different. When testing my current amp via USB I was under impression that an external DAC was much more open. However its optical input also sounds more open than the USB. Compare it to Chord Mojo that I felt preferred USB input and you've got yourself a scenario in which you may not pick a favourite within returns period.

 

[davedotco]

Maybe.

The two instances that I was referring to were personal experiences, one with a friends system and one a dem in my local store involving a Rotel RA12.

My experience with modern dacs is that, if there is an obvious difference, something is going wrong. Extreme example, a year or two back I 'championed' the £25 Behringer usb dac, a simple non asymetric device based mainly on it's performance in a dem compared to a Mdac, which was very interesting indeed.

 

[iMark]

When I read about HiFi on different forums it seems that there is a divide between people who are looking for the ultimate experience with almost unlimited budgets and "ordinary" music lovers who are just looking for a good listening experience for a reasonable sum and convenience.

One box solutions from reputable manufacturers like Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are incredible value for money. Many people use computers, phones and tablets now as source for their music but may also like to listen to records and would like to connect their TV to the stereo system. An integrated amp with streaming options, a decent DAC and a phono stage is extremely convenient and easy to operate. It's not state of the art for the esoteric HiFi enthusiast. But it will certainly be more than good enough for most people who want to upgrade from a little speaker dock and a great alternative for a soundbar. Most people aren't intersted in tinkering!

 

[andyjm]

As a general rule, you want to mount the DAC as close to the clock that is driving it.

For async USB implementations, that can be anywhere. For sync implementations (most S/PDIF implementations) you would do better having the DAC built into the streamer, spinner (or whatever) than into the amp.

 

[insider9]

With this in mind inside an amp would be best. Right?

 

[CnoEvil]

When I read about HiFi on different forums it seems that there is a divide between people who are looking for the ultimate experience with almost unlimited budgets and "ordinary" music lovers who are just looking for a good listening experience for a reasonable sum and convenience.

I also think that there are 2 identifiable types of people who buy and discuss Hifi on Forums...and who I like to call "Art Brain" and "Science Brain".

Art Brain types only have a passing interest in measurements and the pursuit of Neutrality. They simply listen to what a system sounds like and use unmeasureable factors to make their judgement. They look for subjective traits like realism, believeability, enjoyment, cohesion, emotion, musicality etc

Science Brain types are pretty much the exact opposide. They want to see measurements, pursue accuracy to the recording and total neutrality. They often reject Valves and Vinyl, simply based on how they measure and are often drawn towards the Active route. They also like to back up what they hear with Double Blind ABX tests.

IMO. Both routes are valid and imo each group should learn from the other....but it is important to know what group you are in, or you will likely end up throwing money at a system that is unlikely to bring satisfaction.

 

[insider9]

Which one do I come across as?

 

[CnoEvil]

Which one do I come across as?

....More on the Science Brain side of the fence.....but it's possible you could be a mixture of both.

Which do you think you are?

 

[drummerman]

With this in mind inside an amp would be best. Right?

Depends if done right.

Power Supply induced jitter is not uncommon.

 

[insider9]

Which one do I come across as?

....More on the Science Brain side of the fence.....but it's possible you could be a mixture of both.

Which do you think you are?

Yes you're right there. I'm trying to be balanced in my views. Assuming extremes if I had a choice of a system that measures well and doesn't move me and one that isn't neutral measueres poorly but brings a tear to my eye I'd always go for the latter. Same if there was a choice of analytical vs musical... always musical.

Science helps me understand how I can improve my listening environment. How specific desing features and solutions contribute to the sound and what to look for in future purchases. How specs translate to what I'm after.

For example...

One thing I know now is that I don't like negative feedback (both global and local) yes that propbably means more distortion (not necessarily, see Hegel's approach) but music somehow flows better. I'm also using ribbons that are know for having a higher distortion than dome yet somehow sound more natural and real to me

 

[insider9]

With this in mind inside an amp would be best. Right?

Depends if done right.

Power Supply induced jitter is not uncommon.

Hmmmm... ok.

 

[iMark]

I'm more of a pragmatist who believes in the law of the diminishing returns. In the case of HiFi perfect is the enemy of good. The tinkerers are never satisfied and spend incredible amounts of time and money chasing minute improvements.

We only tend to buy new stuff if the old stuff breaks down or new stuff has functionality we would like to have. Very occasionally we will buy an upgrade if the old equipment can find a new home.

We're very happy with our current setup and the only upgrade I can see happening any time soon is a 2M Blue stylus upgrade for the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm more of pragmatist who believes in the law of the diminishing returns. In the case of HiFi perfect is the enemy of good. The tinkerers are never satisfied and spend incredible amounts of time and money chasing minute improvements.

We only tend to buy new stuff if the old stuff breaks down or new stuff has functionality we would like to have. Very occasionally we will buy an upgrade if the old equipment can find a new home.

We're very happy with our current setup and the only upgrade I can see happening any time soon is a 2M Blue stylus upgrade for the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge.

Have you ever compared a 5k system vs a 20k system vs a 100k system?

What is the most expensive system you've heard....and what was it made up of?

There is no doubt that diminishing returns exists....but there are (imo) huge differences between systems that can be put together in the price brackets I listed above....whether you would rather spend the money on something else, is a different, but tangential argument.

I also could put together a cheaper system of brands that I like, that I would much prefer to a very expensive one, of brands that I don't.....so choice of components is vital.

 

[Al ears]

In my opinion no. It is a hindrance to upgrading. The phono stages fitted to some amps are deemed perfectly adequate for most turntable users, as are the DACs, however many other pieces of equipment also have integrated dacs. You don't need two and these items of equipment are evolving rapidly so having an external one you can sell on is always a benefit financially.

I use an Oppo 105eu, why would I want an amp with cheap sac built-in?

Personally I wouldn't touch an amp with inbuilt dac, I don't hate them they are just unnecessary for my system, but I can see some benefits for those that simply must minimize box numbers.

They may indeed be evolving but is it for the better? Surely at this rate over the last 30 years we'd reach an amazing peak in performance. Yet old Philips CD players still sound amazing today compared to modern DACs.

Doubling up is a point well made. But would you really restrict your choice of an amp because of the inbuilt DAC?

Yes I would restrict choice of amp if I already owned a piece of equipment which had a dac that I really liked.

Dacs have and still are evolving , years ago you never needed one able to cope with higher resolution than a CD player output. Now you have hi-res, MQA etc. They evolve to cope with new formats or they fail.

 

[MajorFubar]

When I read about HiFi on different forums it seems that there is a divide between people who are looking for the ultimate experience with almost unlimited budgets and "ordinary" music lovers who are just looking for a good listening experience for a reasonable sum and convenience.

I also think that there are 2 identifiable types of people who buy and discuss Hifi on Forums...and who I like to call "Art Brain" and "Science Brain".

Art Brain types only have a passing interest in measurements and the pursuit of Neutrality. They simply listen to what a system sounds like and use unmeasureable factors to make their judgement. They look for subjective traits like realism, believeability, enjoyment, cohesion, emotion, musicality etc

Science Brain types are pretty much the exact opposide. They want to see measurements, pursue accuracy to the recording and total neutrality. They often reject Valves and Vinyl, simply based on how they measure and are often drawn towards the Active route. They also like to back up what they hear with Double Blind ABX tests.

IMO. Both routes are valid and imo each group should learn from the other....but it is important to know what group you are in, or you will likely end up throwing money at a system that is unlikely to bring satisfaction.

I do try to be more 'art brain' because who cares how it measures if it sounds crap? But when someone tells me (for example) they improved the sound of their DAC by buying a £100 USB cable, it bends the needle on my bullshitometer.

 

[gasolin]

When I read about HiFi on different forums it seems that there is a divide between people who are looking for the ultimate experience with almost unlimited budgets and "ordinary" music lovers who are just looking for a good listening experience for a reasonable sum and convenience.

I also think that there are 2 identifiable types of people who buy and discuss Hifi on Forums...and who I like to call "Art Brain" and "Science Brain".

Art Brain types only have a passing interest in measurements and the pursuit of Neutrality. They simply listen to what a system sounds like and use unmeasureable factors to make their judgement. They look for subjective traits like realism, believeability, enjoyment, cohesion, emotion, musicality etc

Science Brain types are pretty much the exact opposide. They want to see measurements, pursue accuracy to the recording and total neutrality. They often reject Valves and Vinyl, simply based on how they measure and are often drawn towards the Active route. They also like to back up what they hear with Double Blind ABX tests.

IMO. Both routes are valid and imo each group should learn from the other....but it is important to know what group you are in, or you will likely end up throwing money at a system that is unlikely to bring satisfaction.

I do try to be more 'art brain' because who cares how it measures if it sounds crap? But when someone tells me (for example) they improved the sound of their DAC by buying a £100 USB cable, it bends the needle on my bullshitometer.

So you never tried a €100 usb cable?

 

[CnoEvil]

I do try to be more 'art brain' because who cares how it measures if it sounds crap? But when someone tells me (for example) they improved the sound of their DAC by buying a £100 USB cable, it bends the needle on my bullshitometer.

You can't "try" to be an Art Brain....you have to embrace it. *dirol*

I have heard a difference in USB cables (Vertere)....but even worse, Ethernet Cables (Audioquest)....but I'm a fully fledged Art Brain (and general nutcase - as confirmed by Double Blind ABX protocols). *crazy*