Integrated Amp v Pre - Power Combination

[Oxfordian]

Apologies if this has come up before but I could use some help with this please.

I have a Hegel H95 integrated amp and its fine in my system as it is but if I decide to upgrade sources then I am led to believe it could be a bottleneck for future system improvements.

Giving the matter some thought I wondered whether I would be better staying with a more powerful/better spec'd integrated amp or whether I should go for a Pre / Power Combination.

Now I am not looking for feedback on brands just on whether there is a benefit from going to a Pre/Power combination over an integrated, there are hundreds of great integrated amps out there and I am more than happy to stick with one if I upgrade at some point but I have no knowledge of pre/power combinations and whether there are benefits that I don't know of by going down this route.

I have noticed that some Pre/Power combinations can be had for around the same or maybe a touch less than the cost of an integrated amp that is a step up from my H95, now that may suggest that the Pre/Power combo is not up to the same standard of the integrated, if so why do they exist as it isn't logical to buy them or am I missing something?

Can anyone give me the inside knowledge on differences between Integrated and Pre/Power amps e.g. the pro's and con's on each please.

As stated, apologies if this has been covered before.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I've tried integrated, integrated+power and pre/power. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules worth obeying, so try and go with your ears would be my advice.

 

[abacus]

With integrated the higher the quality (Usually) the more powerful the amp, which if you have a small room and efficient speakers could be overkill. (And vice versa) so a separate pre/power maybe more cost effective, also if you change your speakers and/or move into a larger room then you only need to change the power amplifier.
If you are an avid upgrader then a pre/power is the way to go, but if you want to just sit back and listen to the music (With minimal upgrades over time) then stick with integrated.

Bill

 

[plastic penguin]

Apologies if this has come up before but I could use some help with this please.

I have a Hegel H95 integrated amp and its fine in my system as it is but if I decide to upgrade sources then I am led to believe it could be a bottleneck for future system improvements.

Giving the matter some thought I wondered whether I would be better staying with a more powerful/better spec'd integrated amp or whether I should go for a Pre / Power Combination.

Now I am not looking for feedback on brands just on whether there is a benefit from going to a Pre/Power combination over an integrated, there are hundreds of great integrated amps out there and I am more than happy to stick with one if I upgrade at some point but I have no knowledge of pre/power combinations and whether there are benefits that I don't know of by going down this route.

I have noticed that some Pre/Power combinations can be had for around the same or maybe a touch less than the cost of an integrated amp that is a step up from my H95, now that may suggest that the Pre/Power combo is not up to the same standard of the integrated, if so why do they exist as it isn't logical to buy them or am I missing something?

Can anyone give me the inside knowledge on differences between Integrated and Pre/Power amps e.g. the pro's and con's on each please.

As stated, apologies if this has been covered before.

Takes up more room (additional boxes) and the improvements are negligible. IMHO it's a way for a company to suck extra money from your bank balance by trying to convince people they are a vast improvement.

I've demoed integrated amp with a power amp, pre/power and a well sorted integrated on it's own is equal.

 

[Al ears]

Takes up more room (additional boxes) and the improvements are negligible. IMHO it's a way for a company to suck extra money from your bank balance by trying to convince people they are a vast improvement.

I've demoed integrated amp with a power amp, pre/power and a well sorted integrated on it's own is equal.

I would agree.
The crux is the Pre amplifier.
You need a really good one with a couple of power amps if looking to bi-amp.
These days a single pre / power combo offer little benefit.
The problem is paying for all these additional enclosures / power supplies etc makes this route a very expensive option.
Money is better spent on a well sorted integrated until you have a 'don't care' budget.

 

[Oxfordian]

With integrated the higher the quality (Usually) the more powerful the amp, which if you have a small room and efficient speakers could be overkill. (And vice versa) so a separate pre/power maybe more cost effective, also if you change your speakers and/or move into a larger room then you only need to change the power amplifier.
If you are an avid upgrader then a pre/power is the way to go, but if you want to just sit back and listen to the music (With minimal upgrades over time) then stick with integrated.

Bill

Thats a good point, I like the option that I can upgrade just the power section on a pre power combination if my listening habits change. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[daytona600]

Pre/Power will cost much more than a £1500 H95
What is your budget
Elipson P1/2700 with Dac & Phono modules & 400wpc should cover all futures bases
add a 2nd power amp & bridge them for 1400wpc mono blocks

Elipson P1F & A2700 preamplifier and power amplifier

Elipson made loudspeakers, but the French brand was bought in 2010 to diversify its range. Jason Kennedy says products like this cool, clever preamp and power amplifier are the result.

hifiplus.com

 

[Oxfordian]

Takes up more room (additional boxes) and the improvements are negligible. IMHO it's a way for a company to suck extra money from your bank balance by trying to convince people they are a vast improvement.

I've demoed integrated amp with a power amp, pre/power and a well sorted integrated on it's own is equal.

I have to agree that a well sorted integrated is the obvious solution and nowadays they are mostly very well sorted, but I want to find out about Pre/Power combo's as well and discover if they are worth considering or whether I would be throwing money down the upgrade rabbit hole.

Oh, and I have a spare shelf on the hifi rack atm.

 

[Oxfordian]

I would agree.
The crux is the Pre amplifier.
You need a really good one with a couple of power amps if looking to bi-amp.
These days a single pre / power combo offer little benefit.
The problem is paying for all these additional enclosures / power supplies etc makes this route a very expensive option.
Money is better spent on a well sorted integrated until you have a 'don't care' budget.

I agree, from what I have gleaned so far the Pre Amp is key and as others have said the power part can be changed if your listening circumstances do.

No idea what Bi-Amp is so unlikely to go down that route.

Could you clarify why a single pre/power combo offers little benefit please, is it because a good single box system can often do the job better?

Cost, the thorny subject, my HiFi store is suggesting the H190 if I wanted to upgrade so i'll use it as a benchmark, the H190 is £3k, there are Pre/Power combo's out there for around the same price (some a fair bit less) does that indicate that as you are paying for two cases the interiors will be less capable that the H190 if you spent around the same amount.

As I have only ever had integrated amps I know nothing about Pre/power combo's just what I have seen in magazines, forum posts or pictures, it appears that people rave over them, so I thought that as I am some months away from any upgrades it would be worth doing some research and finding out a bit more and get an understanding of them and whether it is a route I want to go down or not.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Al ears]

I have to agree that a well sorted integrated is the obvious solution and nowadays they are mostly very well sorted, but I want to find out about Pre/Power combo's as well and discover if they are worth considering or whether I would be throwing money down the upgrade rabbit hole.

Oh, and I have a spare shelf on the hifi rack atm.

I might suggest, economically, the only way it makes sense is if you go for a pre and two power amps to biamp a system otherwise I wouldn't venture down this route unless ample funds are available.
Proper bi amping is one monoblock power amp driving one speaker
I have done it three times and, ultimately, have ended up back with an excellent integrated.
However, the journey is everything....

 

[Oxfordian]

Pre/Power will cost much more than a £1500 H95
What is your budget
Elipson P1/2700 with Dac & Phono modules & 400wpc should cover all futures bases
add a 2nd power amp & bridge them for 1400wpc mono blocks

Elipson P1F & A2700 preamplifier and power amplifier

Elipson made loudspeakers, but the French brand was bought in 2010 to diversify its range. Jason Kennedy says products like this cool, clever preamp and power amplifier are the result.

hifiplus.com

Thanks for the input, at present I am just trying to get an understanding of what these Pre/Power combos can do and whether they are for me, I do plan to upgrade my amp at some point but what with is still very much up in the air.

I will have a look at your suggestion, thanks.

 

[Oxfordian]

I might suggest, economically, the only way it makes sense is if you go for a pre and two power amps to biamp a system otherwise I wouldn't venture down this route unless ample funds are available.
Proper bi amping is one monoblock power amp driving one speaker
I have done it three times and, ultimately, have ended up back with an excellent integrated.
However, the journey is everything....

Cost has to be a factor in the upgrade but as I have said in my other threads where I am looking at possible system improvements they will be my last upgrades (probably ).

Thanks for the info on bi-amping, much appreciated.

 

[Al ears]

Cost has to be a factor in the upgrade but as I have said in my other threads where I am looking at possible system improvements they will be my last upgrades (probably ).

Thanks for the info on bi-amping, much appreciated.

No problem, hope it helped.
The only pre power combo that I have owned that really gelled was my Tom Evans Audio Vibe and Linear A but this was a high priced combo I had to sell on due to cirumstances.

 

[plastic penguin]

I have to agree that a well sorted integrated is the obvious solution and nowadays they are mostly very well sorted, but I want to find out about Pre/Power combo's as well and discover if they are worth considering or whether I would be throwing money down the upgrade rabbit hole.

Oh, and I have a spare shelf on the hifi rack atm.

Yep, integrated amps these days are generally excellent, all you need is to decipher what connectivity is wanted. The preamp section is important as it's the control side of any amp and how that signal translates to the power side of the integrated. I guess the only possible advantage of a separate pre/power amp is a lack of any background noise that CAN be detected on a integrated.

Have to say with my amp there's no background noise even at full volume, and I've owned it 13 years.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

And with pre power you'll need to factor in which interconnects to go for

 

[Oxfordian]

And with pre power you'll need to factor in which interconnects to go for

So I'll need the ones with the thingamee whatsis coating that allows this but repels that and cost between a little and a lot, would those be the right ones?

 

[Oxfordian]

Pre/Power will cost much more than a £1500 H95
What is your budget
Elipson P1/2700 with Dac & Phono modules & 400wpc should cover all futures bases
add a 2nd power amp & bridge them for 1400wpc mono blocks

Elipson P1F & A2700 preamplifier and power amplifier

Elipson made loudspeakers, but the French brand was bought in 2010 to diversify its range. Jason Kennedy says products like this cool, clever preamp and power amplifier are the result.

hifiplus.com

Thanks for the link, an interesting read

 

[ianb]

I started with a integrated amplifier before swapping to a pre/power setup,honestly? Not much better! Just a way for company's to get you to spend money. I've now moved into vintage equipment and now am running a pioneer setup through my b&w's never been happier. Like most of us would agree listen with your ears in your space,they shouldn't let you down. Good luck!

 

[Oxfordian]

I started with an integrated amplifier before swapping to a pre/power setup,honestly? Not much better! Just a way for company's to get you to spend money. I've now moved into vintage equipment and now am running a pioneer setup through my b&w's never been happier. Like most of us would agree listen with your ears in your space,they shouldn't let you down. Good luck!

Thanks for the input.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

So I'll need the ones with the thingamee whatsis coating that allows this but repels that and cost between a little and a lot, would those be the right ones?

No idea. Best to start a new cable thread to find out Btw, if you did end up with a pre and power then in addition to which interconnects you could also ask which mains cable would be suitable for the pre amp? Which mains cable would be suitable for the power amp? And if its a streaming pre amp which Ethernet cable would be suitable?

All the right ingredients for a top thread

 

[nopiano]

I’ve been a fan of the more substantial integrated amps for many years. Before that - the 1970s - the more powerful receivers (an integrated amp with a radio tuner in one box).

I’ve only had two power amps. A Musical Fidelity that I won at a show, which was burgled after about ten years. And the Pass Labs I currently have, and bought to scratch a ‘class A’ itch.

For the vast majority a decent integrated amp is the best bang for the buck. And I do think the Hegel H190 is a bit pricey nowadays, though obviously everything is going up. I would want to hear it versus a few of the equivalents from the likes of Exposure, Denon, Primare, Marantz, Gato, ATC and Rotel. Or just get a used H390, maybe?

 

[Oxfordian]

I’ve been a fan of the more substantial integrated amps for many years. Before that - the 1970s - the more powerful receivers (an integrated amp with a radio tuner in one box).

I’ve only had two power amps. A Musical Fidelity that I won at a show, which was burgled after about ten years. And the Pass Labs I currently have, and bought to scratch a ‘class A’ itch.

For the vast majority a decent integrated amp is the best bang for the buck. And I do think the Hegel H190 is a bit pricey nowadays, though obviously everything is going up. I would want to hear it versus a few of the equivalents from the likes of Exposure, Denon, Primare, Marantz, Gato, ATC and Rotel. Or just get a used H390, maybe?

I have a HiFi store not too far away selling Exposure and ATC so might be able to have a look at the Exposure 3510 series powering my little ATC SCM 7's which would be a good audition, I could also look at ATC integrated amps as well, I can also discuss the Exposure Pre/Power v Integrated with them.

Thanks for the comment.

 

[enthusiast_cityzen]

One question regarding the power and pre-amp, please.
Because B&W 804 requires quite some power from the amplifier, I was thinking to get two mono blocks from Electrocompaniet (AW 180 - 250W). But, I was wondering if I can skip the pre-amp and use a network streamer with prea-amp function, like the Cambridge CNX. Is that viable?
Thank you.

 

[abacus]

One question regarding the power and pre-amp, please.
Because B&W 804 requires quite some power from the amplifier, I was thinking to get two mono blocks from Electrocompaniet (AW 180 - 250W). But, I was wondering if I can skip the pre-amp and use a network streamer with prea-amp function, like the Cambridge CNX. Is that viable?
Thank you.

Absolutely.

Bill

 

[nopiano]

I have a HiFi store not too far away selling Exposure and ATC so might be able to have a look at the Exposure 3510 series powering my little ATC SCM 7's which would be a good audition, I could also look at ATC integrated amps as well, I can also discuss the Exposure Pre/Power v Integrated with them.

Thanks for the comment.

You’re welcome, and it’s interesting to note that both Exposure and ATC - also both British brands - make integrated and pre-power combinations. Personally, I like the ‘art deco’ style of the ATC, but if you prefer black to silver it’ll have to be Exposure!