Integrated amp/DAC/bass management

[dedier]

I was surprised to see how difficult it is to find what I'm looking for. I’m counting on your broad knowledge of brands and their products. I know exactly what I want, but can’t find the right one.

It should be an integrated stereo amplifier that is designed for 2.1 stereo systems, around 70-80W (not much actually), it should have good bass management, not just a passive sub-out or pre-out but a crossover (analogue - knob on the back of the amp or digital - accessible through remote or visible on display, I don’t mind) AND (I know, it’s too much) it should have a decent DAC built in, preferably with an USB input that is not apple dedicated but really universal. You plug your PC directly to your integrated and you have a quite good sound. I’m trying to avoid many different components.

So it’s an integrated amp with bass management and a DAC, but I don’t like receives and I’m trying my best to find a stereo amp first. I will consider a receiver only if no other option is available.

My budget is 500 - 700 pounds.

EXTRA INFO: only if you’re interested. I joined Audioholics web site and I really appreciate their philosophy and knowledge, but they are mostly USA orientated and a lot of brands they recommend are not available to me. It seems that as soon as you look for a sub management everyone and every site redirects you towards receivers. I did found a couple of DAC/amps and a few amps that have sub management but very few that have everything. NAD d7050 has it all, but it is a bit too expensive for me. It cost more than 700 pounds where I live.

I would like my amp to stop sending the whole signal to main speakers once I acquire the subwoofer. So that it unburdens them a bit and have them work with midds and highs mainly (and of course just a little bit of lows) and I want the sub not to receive the entire signal but to work with lows only.

Subs do have a crossover very often, but if you don’t have the bass management your mains are still getting the entire signal.

I actually thought it would be easy to find an integrated amp like this these days. There’s a lot of bookshelves being sold and it’s foolish to expect them to play lower than 50Hz, and then there’s a lot of digital sources around with all the PC’s, Mac’s, smartphones and streaming, but it’s not easy at all.

Every little piece of advice will be much, much appreciated.

Thank you

dedier

 

[CarlDW]

The first stereo amplifier which springs to mind is the Cambridge CXA80.

I'm not sure on the 'bass management' aspect of this amplifier though. It is just over budget at £750.

 

[Al ears]

I was surprised to see how difficult it is to find what I'm looking for. I’m counting on your broad knowledge of brands and their products. I know exactly what I want, but can’t find the right one.

It should be an integrated stereo amplifier that is designed for 2.1 stereo systems, around 70-80W (not much actually), it should have good bass management, not just a passive sub-out or pre-out but a crossover (analogue - knob on the back of the amp or digital - accessible through remote or visible on display, I don’t mind) AND (I know, it’s too much) it should have a decent DAC built in, preferably with an USB input that is not apple dedicated but really universal. You plug your PC directly to your integrated and you have a quite good sound. I’m trying to avoid many different components.

So it’s an integrated amp with bass management and a DAC, but I don’t like receives and I’m trying my best to find a stereo amp first. I will consider a receiver only if no other option is available.

My budget is 500 - 700 pounds.

EXTRA INFO: only if you’re interested. I joined Audioholics web site and I really appreciate their philosophy and knowledge, but they are mostly USA orientated and a lot of brands they recommend are not available to me. It seems that as soon as you look for a sub management everyone and every site redirects you towards receivers. I did found a couple of DAC/amps and a few amps that have sub management but very few that have everything. NAD d7050 has it all, but it is a bit too expensive for me. It cost more than 700 pounds where I live.

I would like my amp to stop sending the whole signal to main speakers once I acquire the subwoofer. So that it unburdens them a bit and have them work with midds and highs mainly (and of course just a little bit of lows) and I want the sub not to receive the entire signal but to work with lows only.

Subs do have a crossover very often, but if you don’t have the bass management your mains are still getting the entire signal.

I actually thought it would be easy to find an integrated amp like this these days. There’s a lot of bookshelves being sold and it’s foolish to expect them to play lower than 50Hz, and then there’s a lot of digital sources around with all the PC’s, Mac’s, smartphones and streaming, but it’s not easy at all.

Every little piece of advice will be much, much appreciated.

Thank you

dedier

You are quite right dedier. To get everything you require for your budget you would have to look at a receiver I feel. Unless anyone on here knows different of course. ;-)

You are also correct that your main speakers get the full signal but if they are limited to 50 Hz they are not going to play the full signal, your sub will play the rest depending on where you set its crossover point so not too sure why you would insist on bass management.

Where in the world are you?

 

[rmatthew]

I auditioned the CXA80 and it sounded very good. With a bit of negotiation you might squeeze it into your budget.

I think you will struggle to find anything for what you describe as bass management for your budget. I would suggest taking your speakers to RicherSounds or an alternative stockist and give it a try. You can also audition a sub at the same time so you can hear the difference. Bottom line is that your ears are more important than the spec sheets.

 

[DocG]

Hi dedier,

What exactly do you need the 'bass management' to do? Is it just the cross-over between sub and main speakers? Or do you need speaker correction and room compensation too?

If it's just the former, you could look for a subwoofer with high-pass out. In this case, you feed the whole signal to the sub. The sub's crossover sends the bass (cut-off where you choose it) to the sub's amp and driver, and filters the mid/treble to a line-level out, which you then connect to the stereo amp and your main speakers.

If you need the latter, I can't help you (within budget, and avoiding home cinema receivers)...

 

[Leeps]

I would like my amp to stop sending the whole signal to main speakers once I acquire the subwoofer. So that it unburdens them a bit and have them work with midds and highs mainly (and of course just a little bit of lows) and I want the sub not to receive the entire signal but to work with lows only.Thank you

dedier

From experience with my AV receiver, what you're looking for makes a huge difference. I have the option on my AVR of setting my speakers to 'large', sending a full-range signal to my main speakers and my sub or 'small', where it sends only everything above the crossover to the main speakers and everything below it (80hz for me) to the sub.

After running the room equalisation, the AV receiver usually detects that the speakers are full-range and automatically sets them to 'large'. After I manually change them to 'small' the sound changes dramatically. The timing improves, the whole sound is just more punchy, rhythmic and the bass tightens up too.

So what you're looking for is worth it. You may find it's worth auditioning a last-year's model AV receiver, something like a Yamaha Aventage RX-A840, which in the UK would start around £800 but would be discounted to near £500. They make pretty good all-rounders; adding room equalisation, internet radio, bluetooth, Airplay, a generous range of digital inputs and HDMI should you want this.

Receivers around the £800 mark are getting pretty good at music these days. What are your speakers? Is there something in particular that's putting you off a conventional stereo amp with digital inputs and standmount/floorstanding speakers in a more traditional 2.0 system? Or are you just looking for the extra-lows a sub can offer you?

 

[dedier]

You are quite right dedier. To get everything you require for your budget you would have to look at a receiver I feel. Unless anyone on here knows different of course. ;-)

You are also correct that your main speakers get the full signal but if they are limited to 50 Hz they are not going to play the full signal, your sub will play the rest depending on where you set its crossover point so not too sure why you would insist on bass management.

Where in the world are you?

Croatia is one of the former Yugoslavian Republics, Zagreb, where I live, is the capital. We already had Jimmy Carr and Eddie Izzard here, you should have heard for us by now. Charles was here just the other day. *smile*

I'm trying to get the best possible out of the system. Setting the frequencies on your sub is a job half done. Once you get a sub you might want to crossover your mains at an even higher frequency than stated in the speakers’ specs. Very often pushing your bookshelves to even try to reproduce low frequencies means pushing them to the limits and getting some of the unwanted distortions on the way.

A 5.2inch mid/woofer is better off not even trying to play 50Hz, there’s just no use. There’s not enough surface and energy for air displacement. I would like to adjust this differently. I know there’s such a thing as external crossover, but I’m not there yet.

As people at CA say; “the idea of bass management is to redirect frequencies rather than duplicate them”. And this also lets you play with the ‘slope’ which is much harder when one speaker has a fixed sound spectre and always try to play from i.e. 50Hz no matter what you do with your sub.

I would consider this to be an ultimate 2.1 integrated amp for todays’ listeners. It just seems that old school audiophiles don’t care much about 2.1 systems. Otherwise I would expect to see a lot of these. If someone cares about the sound and would like a 2.1 system, this would come as natural. If you have towers, there’s a crossover that separates midd’s from lows. So it’s only natural that if you add a subwoofer to your bookshelves you don’t expect it to perform without one.

 

[itsme]

Bog Dedier,

SonusArt is a dealer in the ciy of Zagreb witch you could visit to discuss your question. They may come up with some advice witch may suit you. (or at least approach as close as possible)

Pozdrav, itsme

 

[dedier]

I see a lot of you took interest in what I'm looking for. Thank you all for your answers.

@rmatthew - I’m far away from RicherSound and first I need to see whether there is such a thing as an amp I’m looking for and then try to see where I can get one.

Even CambridgeAudio, that you mention, does bass management but only in receivers. I would first like to try and find a stereo amp.

@DocG - It is the first option that you mentioned I’m looking for and may I say you have a pretty good point. Now, I’m happy to say, even if I don’t find the amp with all those features I still don’t have to buy a receiver. Could you, please, clarify what you meant by “a line-level out, which you then connect to the stereo amp and your main speakers”? What is the exact path of the signal? Why does it go back to the stereo amp? Or should I ask where is the sub plugged in the amp in this particular configuration, is it pre-out?

@Leeps - Thank you for your answer, I see you get exactly what I’m saying. There’s much more to get from your system if you can fine tune frequency separation, and this is really true. I have a rather small apartment, everything should be compact (I wouldn’t even mind having a CD player built in the amp I described). I believe you can get a better sound for little less money if you go for 2.1 and you can get closer to full range reproduction. Full range towers are actually expensive. So, it should be small, compact, doesn’t even have to be loud but it has to play excellent. I will probably have the LS50’s for my main speakers on account of all the measurements and praises they got. They are very close to flat frequency response.

It's still early to say, but I believe this system could play like an angel in a small to medium size rooms.

 

[dedier]

Bog Dedier,

SonusArt is a dealer in the ciy of Zagreb witch you could visit to discuss your question. They may come up with some advice witch may suit you. (or at least approach as close as possible)

Pozdrav, itsme

Thank you itsme!

I have them in mind and might use their services for a Marantz that has most of these features (HD-Amp1), but it's a bit weak so I haven't decided yet. I might. (If they go gently on the price) *smile* (Tread softly with the price because you tread on my dreams.) *biggrin* *biggrin*

 

[davedotco]

There is really no such thing as a a 2.1 stereo amplifier with proper bass management. The most sophisticated I have seen is the D7050 which has a rudimentary switchable hi-pass filter for the main speakers.

Frankly if this functionality is important to you, there are two ways of going about it.

Either use an AVR as discussed or buy a regular stereo amp, no dac required, and use the Antimode Dual Core from BK Electronics (the subwoofer people) which is a sophisticated dac/bass management system. Sadly the cost of the Antimode is over £500, so likely to go beyond the budget.

 

[dedier]

There is really no such thing as a a 2.1 stereo amplifier with proper bass management.

Thank you for the answer. Just don't dismiss it so quickly. Some might be quick to trust you rather than try to remember themselves if they've seen something that might help me.

@DocG may have recommended a suitable alternative that wouldn't be as expensive as the one you mentioned. If I don't find an amp I'm looking for, I'll go with the sub that has both high and low pass filters. I just have to see, if I choose this option, what should my amp have on the back in order for this to work.

thx davedotco

dedier

 

[DocG]

@DocG - It is the first option that you mentioned I’m looking for and may I say you have a pretty good point. Now, I’m happy to say, even if I don’t find the amp with all those features I still don’t have to buy a receiver. Could you, please, clarify what you meant by “a line-level out, which you then connect to the stereo amp and your main speakers”? What is the exact path of the signal? Why does it go back to the stereo amp? Or should I ask where is the sub plugged in the amp in this particular configuration, is it pre-out?

To do the 'line-level thing', you have to put the sub between the preamp and the poweramp, so your amplifier would need either a pre-out and a power-in, or a tape loop. So you go source --> preamp --> sub --> poweramp (all at line-level) and then speaker wire to the main speakers. Mind: you need a sub with line-level high pass to do this.

Or...

Maybe you want something like an AVI combo (2.1). I suppose a pair of DM10s + a sub could well be within budget, and this way you get all you want, except a source (CDP, or laptop, or whatever).

I'll quickly add that I never ever heard AVI myself (not available for demo in Belgium -- and not in Zagreb either, I suppose...). And I realise that mentioning the brand here on the forum might start an argument that ruins your thread (it's true: that's what the "A-word" often does on here *smile*). But it might be all you need, in a small package. And many owners seem to be very happy with their system...

 

[dedier]

@DocG - I don't mind, go ahead and mention it all. Every help is quite welcome. Thank you for the explanation on the signal path.

My experience with active monitors is that they do not have a lot of different inputs. I mentioned a PC earlier which I want to connect with the amp, but I expect other sources. And I'm already at least half set on the LS50's for my mains. I'm looking for some serious sound for the modern age (condition is that it has to have a decent DAC and a bass management).

thx, dedier

 

[davedotco]

There is really no such thing as a a 2.1 stereo amplifier with proper bass management.

Thank you for the answer. Just don't dismiss it so quickly. Some might be quick to trust you rather than try to remember themselves if they've seen something that might help me.

@DocG may have recommended a suitable alternative that wouldn't be as expensive as the one you mentioned. If I don't find an amp I'm looking for, I'll go with the sub that has both high and low pass filters. I just have to see, if I choose this option, what should my amp have on the back in order for this to work.

thx davedotco

dedier

There really isn't anything in the price level you are looking at, even the feature rich network receivers from Yamaha (R-N602 etc) which does everything does not have this facility. It really is very, very rare on two channel amplifiers.

There are certainly subs that have a filtered output for the main speakers, though again this is fairly rare in subs designed for hi-fi (music) use. I have seen subs that offer this facility but I do not (and would not) use subwoofers, so not an area in which I have any great expertese.

A fair number of subwoofers designed for the pro market do have such a feature, though it is usually just a simple hi-pass filter at a set frequency.

 

[spockfish]

First that comes to mind is the Parasound Halo. It's a 2.1 with bass management.

Don't know about the price though

 

[DocG]

First that comes to mind is the Parasound Halo. It's a 2.1 with bass management.

Don't know about the price though

$2500, according to this review...

 

[DocG]

@DocG - I don't mind, go ahead and mention it all. Every help is quite welcome. Thank you for the explanation on the signal path.

My experience with active monitors is that they do not have a lot of different inputs. I mentioned a PC earlier which I want to connect with the amp, but I expect other sources.

The DM10 has 2 x Toslink and 1 pair analogue RCA. But no USB, if that's what you need...

And I'm already at least half set on the LS50's for my mains. I'm looking for some serious sound for the modern age (condition is that it has to have a decent DAC and a bass management).

I use the LS50s myself. They are brilliant indeed -- but they need very good amplification (enough Watts and Amps) to really shine. And they like some room to breathe too! So be sure to demo them with your (intended) amp, preferably in your room.

 

[Al ears]

First that comes to mind is the Parasound Halo. It's a 2.1 with bass management.

Don't know about the price though

$2500, according to this review...

I missed that one and shouldn't have as I was reading a review of it not long ago. Put it down to old age.

It is however way over the OP's budget.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I use a musical fidelity htp 6000 which is a processor pre amp..second-hand bout £160 add a power amp and bobs your uncle! Doesn't have a usb though..ps if you think processor amps are poor relatives to proper hifi amps? This htp will change your mind..

 

[dedier]

I use a musical fidelity htp 6000 which is a processor pre amp..second-hand bout £160 add a power amp and bobs your uncle! Doesn't have a usb though..ps if you think processor amps are poor relatives to proper hifi amps? This htp will change your mind..

Thanks, man! To answer your question; I don't think one way or the other. I’m completely about sound; this is why I’m going for the 2.1 system with all these features, although a lot of audiophiles would never consider a sub in stereo hi fi. I ascribe this to reasons other than high fidelity reproduction.

If htp 6000 would do what I expect, I’d buy htp. USB is important to me, however. This is because I want to bypass PC’s DAC and send a signal to a more advanced piece of hardware to convert digital to audio.

If you remember anything else, please tell me.

thx

dedier

 

[DocG]

USB is important to me, however. This is because I want to bypass PC’s DAC and send a signal to a more advanced piece of hardware to convert digital to audio.

If the lack of a USB-input holds you back, you could just use a USB-to-SPDIF converter. They're cheap and tiny, and should be sonically transparent (as everything stays in the digital domain).

 

[keeper of the quays]

I use a musical fidelity htp 6000 which is a processor pre amp..second-hand bout £160 add a power amp and bobs your uncle! Doesn't have a usb though..ps if you think processor amps are poor relatives to proper hifi amps? This htp will change your mind..

Thanks, man! To answer your question; I don't think one way or the other. I’m completely about sound; this is why I’m going for the 2.1 system with all these features, although a lot of audiophiles would never consider a sub in stereo hi fi. I ascribe this to reasons other than high fidelity reproduction.

?

If htp 6000 would do what I expect, I’d buy htp. USB is important to me, however. This is because I want to bypass PC’s DAC and send a signal to a more advanced piece of hardware to convert digital to audio.

?

If you remember anything else, please tell me.

thx

dedier

I use mine with a quad 909 power amp..my friend uses it with a sub and his quad esl..the htp sits between Linn sondek and Cyrus transport/dac and his naim amplification..it is amazing..secondhand pre amp bargain! There's a review on google..i wouldn't have bothered as I'm a bit of a hifi purist..but after listening to my mates one..i bought one..

 

[dedier]

@DocG

I see you take time in trying to help me on my quest and I appreciate this. However, don’t take me as ungrateful, but what your advice translates to is: stop pursuing that and buy this. This is totally legit, but I’m not giving up yet. And if I do, I’ll probably go with your ‘sub-with-a-crossover’ recommendation and an amp/DAC. I am trying to avoid including a lot of components. I have a small apartment and everything that can fit in one box, should. I am looking for an amp that is stacked with options and gives you great control over sound. Imagine a receiver but with only 2.1 channels and no FM radio or video processing. Also, it has to play really good and pack some power.

I know you can get external units for just about anything these days, but first I want to see whether I can find one where everything I need is built in.

 

[dedier]

I use mine with a quad 909 power amp..my friend uses it with a sub and his quad esl..the htp sits between Linn sondek and Cyrus transport/dac and his naim amplification..it is amazing..secondhand pre amp bargain! There's a review on google..i wouldn't have bothered as I'm a bit of a hifi purist..but after listening to my mates one..i bought one..

I believe it works fine if you say so, but it’s not what I’m looking for. Not even close. I have a feeling you didn’t even read my first post. I’m looking for a stereo integrated amp and you’re recommending a home cinema processor with no amplification (from what I gather from the manual). *smile* you could have recommend me a microwave while we’re at it! *smile*