Incredibly detailed, too harsh at time

[CnoEvil]

@Nemo

Let me try to sum up my thinking.

1. You have a very neutral system, that has (imo) been pushed into sounding "wrong", by where it's situated - which is why I'm suggesting experimenting. The result of that, will either reveal that the system can work together in your room; or it will be a lost cause. If it can work, you then have to figure if it's possible to set it up in a way you can live with.

2. You may well have two options:

a) Adapt the room acoustics/layout to suit the system...could be very difficult, but may be the only option if you can't exchange components or take a financial hit.

b) Get components that work in your room.

3. It is quite possible that a less expensive system might sound better than what you have, unless you can sort the room/set up. It is also possible that an equally expensive system can be got to sound brilliant....but any changes will need "road tested" in situ before committing.

4. Your speakers are outstanding, but are thoroughbreds....they need great care setting them up and need room to breathe (ideally 3m to the outside and 0.3m [min], preferably more, to the back), if they are to get anywhere near their best.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for posting the picture.

Some initial impressions:

1. The left speaker has a large space around it and the right speaker is jammed in a corner - far from ideal and could give an imbalance.

2. The large glass door, which is in the first reflection point, could be screwing up your sound.

3. Is the sofa up against the wall, which could also be unhelpful.

4. If that floor is shiny marble - more problems.

Some initial suggestions:

- Pull the blind across the window, to help with the reflections....even try playing system with the door open.

- Can you, for the sake of experimentation, place the speakers away from walls and corners, angle them in a little and sit in an equilateral triangle, with your head a few feet from the back wall.

- Temporarily cover any bare patches of the floor with rugs etc.

- Report back what you hear.

 

[CnoEvil]

I didnt even notice you're 'gone'.

Where and why and if why back?

Anyhow, good to read you.

I stopped posting because I felt the forum had completely lost its Mojo. I moved to a different forum (not Hifi), where the members are hugly knowledgeable and are more happy to share that knowledge for the benefit of others.

I returned because I wanted to help the OP, who has spent a fortune on a system...and as it stands, would probably be happier with a Valve Amp powering some Audio Notes or Harbeths.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thx David.

Good for you....for having the guts to go out on your own. A mixture of freedom and scaryness, I assume.

Yeah, a bit of both, but enjoying it

 

[DocG]

Hi Nemo

I have kind of left this place, but having seen your plight, I wanted to try and help. You must be gutted that you have spent so much money and are not totally happy with the sound. I'm familiar with the Ref 1s, hate a thin forward sound and like Jazz.

First, a few of questions:

- Did you hear this complete system before you bought it? If so, did it sound better? If it sounded better, what were the differences at the dealer eg. Cables, demo music, room size/decor, volume.

- Have you tried conecting the CDP with RCA leads, which uses the DAC in the Leema?

- Did you listen to any other components before you ended up with your present kit - if so, what did you think?

- Do you have the option of changing kit and if so, what other brands can you obtain?

- Are you using the Kef Stands; are your stands filled?

- What floor are they on eg. Laminate/Carpet/Solid/Suspended wooden...are they spiked....do they have any movement?

- Would the dealer come round and see how you've set things up?

As David said, the Ref 1s are not inherently bright, but they are incredibly revealing and will highlight the strengths/weaknesses, as well as the character of the components they are connected to. I have heard them sounding wonderful on the end of an Arcam A49 + Linn Akurate DS. I have also heard them sounding a bit harsh, when the Amp and Source were not up to the job.

It is my opinion, that Cables do effect the sound. Personally, I don't like Chord Cables, which I find detailed and forward. If you have access to trialling cables, you could try the likes of Cardas, Atlas, TQ (Green) and Linn. This might work if it's a tweak that's needed, rather than a fundamental overhall. I would also try connecting the CDP with Phono Leads.

I have not personally heard your Amp/CDP, but from what I've read, they are of an appropiate quality to be in a system with the Refs. This means, that if you can't get the sound you are looking for from the suggestions above, then something will need to be changed....which is where a helpful dealer is key.

If the dealer is up for it, you need to go back and try different combinations....and put enjoyment at the heart of any buying decision (don't be afraid to pick his brains and be clear about the type of sound you are after). Both the Leema and Krell are pretty neutral and detailed bits of kit, but it's quite possible, for your taste, that you need to introduce something more euphonic. This could be from the Amp, with brands like Arcam, Sugden, Icon Audio, Unison Research, Pathos, Mc Intosh, Electrocompaniet or Musical Fidelity; or it could be from speakers like Harbeth, Sonus Faber, Spendor or Diapason. You might even find out that you prefer the Kef R Series.

If I can help further, please let me know.

Thanks CNoEvil for the very detailed response. Before I try to answer, I will just upload a picture I took this morning of my setup, and room:

http://imgur.com/a/5XOzM

Sorry, I just cant seem to get the photo to display here, I know its annoying to have to clock to go see it.

@ Nemo: Quickest test imo is to open the glass door (if it ain't raining) and have another listen -- leaving everything else as is. If the harshness has gone, you know where you need to go.

@ Cno: glad to see you posting again. It's been far too long!

 

[CnoEvil]

@ Cno: glad to see you posting again. It's been far too long!

Thx Doc.

It's good to see some of the "Hardy Perennials" are still sticking it out.

 

[ellisdj]

Just realised TrevC is gone and Cno is back.

Could they be the same person??

Jekell and hyde...????

 

[CnoEvil]

Just realised TrevC is gone and Cno is back.

Could they be the same person??

Jekell and hyde...????

You've smoked me out....all that insulting myself was exhausting.

 

[ellisdj]

HAHAHAHAHAHA )))))

 

[nemo78]

Thanks everyone, I will do the suggested changes one by one over the next few days and will update this thread accordingly.

 

[CnoEvil]

CnoEvil, I'll answer your questions below:

- Did you hear this complete system before you bought it? If so, did it sound better? If it sounded better, what were the differences at the dealer eg. Cables, demo music, room size/decor, volume.

Yes, for the purchase of the Ref1s, I auditioned with a Krell Vanguard, at the dealers listening room, and was blown away. Note his room is MUCH bigger and I guess a lot of treatment had gone into it.

- Have you tried conecting the CDP with RCA leads, which uses the DAC in the Leema?

I tried this, but I wasnt fully convinced and continued to use the COAX or OPT.

- Did you listen to any other components before you ended up with your present kit - if so, what did you think?

I was using Naim XS+ Dali or XS+ Vienna accoustics bookshelf with a sub. Still do, in my office. Its a lot more FUN but not as detailed. Also listening position is much closer in office.

- Do you have the option of changing kit and if so, what other brands can you obtain?

I want to see how much I can improve this. Already, thanks to you guys and this thread, things have improved alot, after I changed the bass port.

- Are you using the Kef Stands; are your stands filled?

Yes, Original stands.

- What floor are they on eg. Laminate/Carpet/Solid/Suspended wooden...are they spiked....do they have any movement?

Tiled floor, just a small carpet in front.

- Would the dealer come round and see how you've set things up?

He came once, intially.

Sorry, I missed your answers as they were in a quote from Gazzip.

- What cabling did your dealer use? ie. Phono/Coax/Speaker/Mains. If you don't know, he should be able to advise. There may not have been treatment...just having proper space and no shiny surfaces makes a huge difference.

- Did the dealer use the Leema CDP and did he use phono or coax?

- What Phono Leads did you use, when comparing with Coax

- What did the dealer say when he came round?

At least you know the system can sound great...which is good to know. I also think that it is important to recreate your demo conditions as closely as possible...and the dealer should lend you anything that is different.

Getting your system right, is a meticulous process of elimination.

 

[rainsoothe]

Just realised TrevC is gone and Cno is back.

Could they be the same person??

Jekell and hyde...????

You've smoked me out....all that insulting myself was exhausting.

)))

@OP - if all else fails (different cabling, for instance, can only help to some extent), try to audition a valve amp, like Jadis Orchestra.

 

[nopiano]

Please come back. We miss you.

Thank you for the kind words...but no guarantees.

Edit. I see the forum platform is no better - I tried to edit my above post, only to find the edited material doesn't appear....even though it shows when I go back into the Edit Box.

I did notice, and I've missed you too. Hope everything at home and with health is ok. Best regards.

 

[CnoEvil]

I did notice, and I've missed you too. Hope everything at home and with health is ok. Best regards.

Thank you - Everything is fine and health good atm.

It's really good to see that people like yourself are still here and helping.....too many good people have thrown in the towel.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I would definitely say that glass patio door is not helping and the fact the speaker is well tucked into the corner like that they need some room .

There have been some good comments so far I like the comment about opening the patio door to see if this improves the sound .

 

[nemo78]

I would definitely say that glass patio door is not helping and the fact the speaker is well tucked into the corner like that they need some room .

There have been some good comments so far I like the comment about opening the patio door to see if this improves the sound .

Today I brought the speakers a bit to the front (away from the cabinet, and not so tucked in to corner anymore), and then experimented with different toe in angles. When I got closer to 45 degrees, it didnt give the best SQ, but a bit less and it now sounds a lot better.

Also (partially) closing the curtain closest to the right side speaker.

When I am listening, one of the glass windows in always open. But does it have to be the window partition closest to the right speaker? I usually keep that one closed.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you want to locate the "First Reflection Point", get a mirror and while sitting in your listening position, get someone to move the mirror along the side with the glass. The point at which you see the speaker is the Reflection point. http://www.advancedacoustics-uk.com/What-Is-The-First-Reflection-Point and http://www.gikacoustics.com/early-reflection-points/

The dispersion of the Kef Tweeter is really good/even, so in your case, most of the toe-in is to direct the sound away from the walls (rather than keep the image intact).

Any shiny surface that the sound bounces off is your enemy, so keep experimenting until you hit the right position.

 

[drummerman]

I did notice, and I've missed you too.  Hope everything at home and with health is ok. Best regards.

Thank you - Everything is fine and health good atm.

It's really good to see that people like yourself are still here and helping.....too many good people have thrown in the towel.

That's why I don't try to be helpful ...

 

[drummerman]

I would definitely say that glass patio door is not helping and the fact the speaker is well tucked into the corner like that they need some room  .

There have been some good comments so far I like the comment about  opening  the patio door to see if this improves the sound .   

Today I brought the speakers a bit to the front (away from the cabinet, and not so tucked in to corner anymore), and then experimented with different toe in angles. When I got closer to 45 degrees, it didnt give the best SQ, but a bit less and it now sounds a lot better.

Also (partially) closing  the curtain closest to the right side speaker.

When I am listening, one of the glass windows in always open. But does it have to be the window partition closest to the right speaker? I usually keep that one closed.

If you have to open/close windows to enjoy your Hifi you know you've taken things to far.

Try and remember when you last really enjoyed your little music system, then flog all the high end/ high annoyance stuff and back track.

 

[CnoEvil]

That's why I don't try to be helpful ...

You can get away with murder when you have good looks on your side!!

 

[drummerman]

That's why I don't try to be helpful ...

You can get away with murder when you have good looks on your side!!

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Nemo

I have kind of left this place, but having seen your plight, I wanted to try and help. You must be gutted that you have spent so much money and are not totally happy with the sound. I'm familiar with the Ref 1s, hate a thin forward sound and like Jazz.

First, a few of questions:

- Did you hear this complete system before you bought it? If so, did it sound better? If it sounded better, what were the differences at the dealer eg. Cables, demo music, room size/decor, volume.

- Have you tried conecting the CDP with RCA leads, which uses the DAC in the Leema?

- Did you listen to any other components before you ended up with your present kit - if so, what did you think?

- Do you have the option of changing kit and if so, what other brands can you obtain?

- Are you using the Kef Stands; are your stands filled?

- What floor are they on eg. Laminate/Carpet/Solid/Suspended wooden...are they spiked....do they have any movement?

- Would the dealer come round and see how you've set things up?

As David said, the Ref 1s are not inherently bright, but they are incredibly revealing and will highlight the strengths/weaknesses, as well as the character of the components they are connected to. I have heard them sounding wonderful on the end of an Arcam A49 + Linn Akurate DS. I have also heard them sounding a bit harsh, when the Amp and Source were not up to the job.

It is my opinion, that Cables do effect the sound. Personally, I don't like Chord Cables, which I find detailed and forward. If you have access to trialling cables, you could try the likes of Cardas, Atlas, TQ (Green) and Linn. This might work if it's a tweak that's needed, rather than a fundamental overhall. I would also try connecting the CDP with Phono Leads.

I have not personally heard your Amp/CDP, but from what I've read, they are of an appropiate quality to be in a system with the Refs. This means, that if you can't get the sound you are looking for from the suggestions above, then something will need to be changed....which is where a helpful dealer is key.

If the dealer is up for it, you need to go back and try different combinations....and put enjoyment at the heart of any buying decision (don't be afraid to pick his brains and be clear about the type of sound you are after). Both the Leema and Krell are pretty neutral and detailed bits of kit, but it's quite possible, for your taste, that you need to introduce something more euphonic. This could be from the Amp, with brands like Arcam, Sugden, Icon Audio, Unison Research, Pathos, Mc Intosh, Electrocompaniet or Musical Fidelity; or it could be from speakers like Harbeth, Sonus Faber, Spendor, Audio Note or Diapason. You might even find out that you prefer the Kef R Series or LS 50s.

Also, IMO extra detail needn't be a bad thing, if the system is properly balanced and set up.

If I can help further, please let me know.

 

[peterpan]

Kef, MA, Tannoy are all bright sounding speakers. Look at speakers with a soft dome like Q acoustics and Wharfedale.

 

[CnoEvil]

Kef, MA, Tannoy are all bright sounding speakers. Look at speakers with a soft dome like Q acoustics and Wharfedale.

I find MA a little bright. Tannoy need carefully matched or they can be a touch brittle in the treble.. Kef used to be a bit lean and forward if not matched well (IQ/XQ/Old Refs), but IMO are no longer so.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Metal dome tweeters aren't necessarily bright if they're designed and implemented well. Some speakers aren't bright, they're just revealing enough or show the shortcomings of some associated electronics.