Incredibly detailed, too harsh at time

nemo78

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Hello everyone,

Not trying to be cute but that subject headline explains just the problem I am facing.

About a year ago, I decided to do a fairly extensive upgrade and went and bought the KEF Reference 1 'bookshelf' speakers and a Krell Vanguard Integrated amp with digital module. And to get even more detail, I decided to use as speaker cables the Chord Odyssey 2. Sources are an Antilla CDP via COAX, or sometimes, flac or apple lossless files via BT from a computer. (My system before was a Naim XS, and a Audiolab 8200 CDP, with Dali ikon 6s).

Anyway, here is the problem: With the Krell+Kef Ref 1 combo, I get INCREDIBLE detail and very taut bass. BUT the sound is TOO THIN/ HARSH. I listen to jazz, Rock, Pop, Latin etc. Some albums I just cant listen (Probably all the flaws of the recordings are being shown up), while in some cases, the music is just stunning, and I am thinking this is the best system in the world ever.

But in the past few days and weeks, as I was trying to listen to more music, I find this system too restrictive.

I am wondering, Is this simply a VERY bad match, the KEF Reference and Krell Vangaurd? Or is it the cables? I tried other cables I have in the house, those are modest ones like Chord Silver Screen etc, those dont give anything like the resolution of the Odyssey 2, and I feel that since I have now listened to the incredible detail available, I dont want to get LESS detail, just for the sound to be Warm. Maybe I am being unreasonable here, I dont know.

So perhaps there is a way I can keep the detail and resolution of the Odyssey 2 AND get rich, somewhat warm sound? Or is that an impossible thing to ask? Is it the cable? or is the amp and speaker mismatch? (note that I tried a few different CDPs, there were minor differences to the sound, but the same harshness.

I am really lost here and would appreciate any constructive feedback. It would be a real bonus if someone here has already listened to the Kef 1+Krell (or can listen) and let me know your thoughts.

Regards

Rick
 

Frank Harvey

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This is where your Reference retailer should come into play to earn the money you paid him...

Have you tried both port lengths in your room? How is speaker placement? Speakers near to side walls? Carpeted floor or bare?

The Odyssey works well with the KEFs, so no problems there. I can't vouch for the Krell.
 

nemo78

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davidf said:
This is where your Reference retailer should come into play to earn the money you paid him...

Have you tried both port lengths in your room? How is speaker placement? Speakers near to side walls? Carpeted floor or bare?

The Odyssey works well with the KEFs, so no problems there. I can't vouch for the Krell.

The port lengths, as I understand, are to controll bass. I dont have over bearing bass, just very taut, fast bass, so didnt want to mess with this.

Room size is: length 21ft, width 13ft, height 10 feet.

Speakers are slightly toed in. One side of the room is a glass door (this is an apartment), other side is wall/ kitchen opening.

I have tried other systems in this same room, and found no issues.
 

Macspur

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What about flooring and furniture? is it carpet or wood floor?

I don't know anything about the port lengths, but it might be worth having a word with the dealer for advice in that area.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
 

nemo78

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davidf said:
This is where your Reference retailer should come into play to earn the money you paid him...

Have you tried both port lengths in your room? How is speaker placement? Speakers near to side walls? Carpeted floor or bare?

The Odyssey works well with the KEFs, so no problems there. I can't vouch for the Krell.

Thanks, this was a good call. Since my last post, I went and changed (for the first time!) the ports. Replaced the long grey one with the shorter one, and Already, the sound is less harsh! I will listen more and update. I asked the dealer about this the day I bought and and my impression from what I was told was, these ports are just to reduce bass, in rooms where bass is overpowering. Its nothing of the sort.
 

Frank Harvey

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nemo78 said:
The port lengths, as I understand, are to controll bass. I dont have over bearing bass, just very taut, fast bass, so didnt want to mess with this.

Room size is: length 21ft, width 13ft, height 10 feet.

Speakers are slightly toed in. One side of the room is a glass door (this is an apartment), other side is wall/ kitchen opening.

I have tried other systems in this same room, and found no issues.
I mention the port lengths as they affect bass output, and in turn affect how you perceive the mid and higher frequencies.

The Reference range isn't a harsh sounding range, and their dispersion is very even, far more so than most other speakers, so tend to be quite room friendly. So without seeing photos or being there, it's hard to say what is causing the issue. Maybe the glass door is playing its part, or maybe the Krell is struggling to control the KEFs and becoming ragged at the top end.
 

Frank Harvey

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nemo78 said:
Thanks, this was a good call. Since my last post, I went and changed (for the first time!) the ports. Replaced the long grey one with the shorter one, and Already, the sound is less harsh! I will listen more and update. I asked the dealer about this the day I bought and and my impression from what I was told was, these ports are just to reduce bass, in rooms where bass is overpowering. Its nothing of the sort.
They're kind of right as that is what they're designed to do, but as I say in my last post, arguing the bass in any system changes how we perceive the midrange and treble. More bass tends to soften higher frequencies, whereas less bass shifts the emphasis more towards the mid and higher frequencies. It's like using bungs in speaker ports, yes it is to dampen bass, but it is always going to change the tonal balance of the speaker to something quite different. KEF produced the ports for the Reference range instead of bungs, which can kill the natural energy a speaker produces.
 

DocG

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I would experiment with the speaker position. In my set-up, the speakers have a sharp toe in; they cross like 0.5 m in front of the listening position. This way, you have softer highs (as compared to speakers aimed at your head), and you diminish the first reflections off the side wall, which might be your problem (the glass door).
 

Gazzip

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CnoEvil said:
Hi Nemo

I have kind of left this place, but having seen your plight, I wanted to try and help. You must be gutted that you have spent so much money and are not totally happy with the sound. I'm familiar with the Ref 1s, hate a thin forward sound and like Jazz.

First, a few of questions:

- Did you hear this complete system before you bought it? If so, did it sound better? If it sounded better, what were the differences at the dealer eg. Cables, demo music, room size/decor, volume.

- Have you tried conecting the CDP with RCA leads, which uses the DAC in the Leema?

- Did you listen to any other components before you ended up with your present kit - if so, what did you think?

- Do you have the option of changing kit and if so, what other brands can you obtain?

- Are you using the Kef Stands; are your stands filled?

- What floor are they on eg. Laminate/Carpet/Solid/Suspended wooden...are they spiked....do they have any movement?

- Would the dealer come round and see how you've set things up?

As David said, the Ref 1s are not inherently bright, but they are incredibly revealing and will highlight the strengths/weaknesses, as well as the character of the components they are connected to. I have heard them sounding wonderful on the end of an Arcam A49 + Linn Akurate DS. I have also heard them sounding a bit harsh, when the Amp and Source were not up to the job.

It is my opinion, that Cables do effect the sound. Personally, I don't like Chord Cables, which I find detailed and forward. If you have access to trialling cables, you could try the likes of Cardas, Atlas, TQ (Green) and Linn. This might work if it's a tweak that's needed, rather than a fundamental overhall. I would also try connecting the CDP with Phono Leads.

I have not personally heard your Amp/CDP, but from what I've read, they are of an appropiate quality to be in a system with the Refs. This means, that if you can't get the sound you are looking for from the suggestions above, then something will need to be changed....which is where a helpful dealer is key.

If the dealer is up for it, you need to go back and try different combinations....and put enjoyment at the heart of any buying decision (don't be afraid to pick his brains and be clear about the type of sound you are after). Both the Leema and Krell are pretty neutral and detailed bits of kit, but it's quite possible, for your taste, that you need to introduce something more euphonic. This could be from the Amp, with brands like Arcam, Sugden, Icon Audio, Unison Research, Pathos, Mc Intosh, Electrocompaniet or Musical Fidelity; or it could be from speakers like Harbeth, Sonus Faber, Spendor or Diapason. You might even find out that you prefer the Kef R Series.

Also, IMO extra detail needn't be a bad thing, if the system is properly balanced and set up.

If I can help further, please let me know.

Please come back. We miss you.
 

nemo78

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CnoEvil said:
Hi Nemo

I have kind of left this place, but having seen your plight, I wanted to try and help. You must be gutted that you have spent so much money and are not totally happy with the sound. I'm familiar with the Ref 1s, hate a thin forward sound and like Jazz.

First, a few of questions:

- Did you hear this complete system before you bought it? If so, did it sound better? If it sounded better, what were the differences at the dealer eg. Cables, demo music, room size/decor, volume.

- Have you tried conecting the CDP with RCA leads, which uses the DAC in the Leema?

- Did you listen to any other components before you ended up with your present kit - if so, what did you think?

- Do you have the option of changing kit and if so, what other brands can you obtain?

- Are you using the Kef Stands; are your stands filled?

- What floor are they on eg. Laminate/Carpet/Solid/Suspended wooden...are they spiked....do they have any movement?

- Would the dealer come round and see how you've set things up?

As David said, the Ref 1s are not inherently bright, but they are incredibly revealing and will highlight the strengths/weaknesses, as well as the character of the components they are connected to. I have heard them sounding wonderful on the end of an Arcam A49 + Linn Akurate DS. I have also heard them sounding a bit harsh, when the Amp and Source were not up to the job.

It is my opinion, that Cables do effect the sound. Personally, I don't like Chord Cables, which I find detailed and forward. If you have access to trialling cables, you could try the likes of Cardas, Atlas, TQ (Green) and Linn. This might work if it's a tweak that's needed, rather than a fundamental overhall. I would also try connecting the CDP with Phono Leads.

I have not personally heard your Amp/CDP, but from what I've read, they are of an appropiate quality to be in a system with the Refs. This means, that if you can't get the sound you are looking for from the suggestions above, then something will need to be changed....which is where a helpful dealer is key.

If the dealer is up for it, you need to go back and try different combinations....and put enjoyment at the heart of any buying decision (don't be afraid to pick his brains and be clear about the type of sound you are after). Both the Leema and Krell are pretty neutral and detailed bits of kit, but it's quite possible, for your taste, that you need to introduce something more euphonic. This could be from the Amp, with brands like Arcam, Sugden, Icon Audio, Unison Research, Pathos, Mc Intosh, Electrocompaniet or Musical Fidelity; or it could be from speakers like Harbeth, Sonus Faber, Spendor or Diapason. You might even find out that you prefer the Kef R Series.

If I can help further, please let me know.

Thanks CNoEvil for the very detailed response. Before I try to answer, I will just upload a picture I took this morning of my setup, and room:

http://imgur.com/a/5XOzM

5XOzM


Sorry, I just cant seem to get the photo to display here, I know its annoying to have to clock to go see it.
 

nemo78

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btw, I am not using Audiolab MDac in the photo, just going direct to the Krell from the Leema Antilla via COAX.

The listening position is the sofa, at the foreground of the pic, maybe 8-10 feet from speakers.
 

Frank Harvey

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Make sure the front faceof the speakers are in front of the front face of your cabinet.

And that glass will definitely be contributing to your problem. Toe the speakers in to try and reduce it. Alternatively, see if you can find a nice heavy curtain that you can draw when listening to help cut down on the reflection.

With the amount of money you've spent, your dealer should certainly be paying you a visit to help you with set up.
 

nemo78

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CnoEvil, I'll answer your questions below:

Gazzip said:
CnoEvil said:
- Did you hear this complete system before you bought it? If so, did it sound better? If it sounded better, what were the differences at the dealer eg. Cables, demo music, room size/decor, volume.

Yes, for the purchase of the Ref1s, I auditioned with a Krell Vanguard, at the dealers listening room, and was blown away. Note his room is MUCH bigger and I guess a lot of treatment had gone into it.

- Have you tried conecting the CDP with RCA leads, which uses the DAC in the Leema?

I tried this, but I wasnt fully convinced and continued to use the COAX or OPT.

- Did you listen to any other components before you ended up with your present kit - if so, what did you think?

I was using Naim XS+ Dali or XS+ Vienna accoustics bookshelf with a sub. Still do, in my office. Its a lot more FUN but not as detailed. Also listening position is much closer in office.

- Do you have the option of changing kit and if so, what other brands can you obtain?

I want to see how much I can improve this. Already, thanks to you guys and this thread, things have improved alot, after I changed the bass port.

- Are you using the Kef Stands; are your stands filled? Yes, Original stands.

- What floor are they on eg. Laminate/Carpet/Solid/Suspended wooden...are they spiked....do they have any movement? Tiled floor, just a small carpet in front.

- Would the dealer come round and see how you've set things up? He came once, intially.

As David said, the Ref 1s are not inherently bright, but they are incredibly revealing and will highlight the strengths/weaknesses, as well as the character of the components they are connected to. I have heard them sounding wonderful on the end of an Arcam A49 + Linn Akurate DS. I have also heard them sounding a bit harsh, when the Amp and Source were not up to the job.

It is my opinion, that Cables do effect the sound. Personally, I don't like Chord Cables, which I find detailed and forward. If you have access to trialling cables, you could try the likes of Cardas, Atlas, TQ (Green) and Linn. This might work if it's a tweak that's needed, rather than a fundamental overhall. I would also try connecting the CDP with Phono Leads.

I have not personally heard your Amp/CDP, but from what I've read, they are of an appropiate quality to be in a system with the Refs. This means, that if you can't get the sound you are looking for from the suggestions above, then something will need to be changed....which is where a helpful dealer is key.

If the dealer is up for it, you need to go back and try different combinations....and put enjoyment at the heart of any buying decision (don't be afraid to pick his brains and be clear about the type of sound you are after). Both the Leema and Krell are pretty neutral and detailed bits of kit, but it's quite possible, for your taste, that you need to introduce something more euphonic. This could be from the Amp, with brands like Arcam, Sugden, Icon Audio, Unison Research, Pathos, Mc Intosh, Electrocompaniet or Musical Fidelity; or it could be from speakers like Harbeth, Sonus Faber, Spendor or Diapason. You might even find out that you prefer the Kef R Series.

Also, IMO extra detail needn't be a bad thing, if the system is properly balanced and set up.

If I can help further, please let me know.

Please come back. We miss you.
 

nemo78

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davidf said:
Make sure the front faceof the speakers are in front of the front face of your cabinet.

And that glass will definitely be contributing to your problem. Toe the speakers in to try and reduce it. Alternatively, see if you can find a nice heavy curtain that you can draw when listening to help cut down on the reflection.

With the amount of money you've spent, your dealer should certainly be paying you a visit to help you with set up.

Thanks, will change one by one and update, in the next few days
 

CnoEvil

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Gazzip said:
Please come back. We miss you.

Thank you for the kind words...but no guarantees.

Edit. I see the forum platform is no better - I tried to edit my above post, only to find the edited material doesn't appear....even though it shows when I go back into the Edit Box.
 

drummerman

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CnoEvil said:
Gazzip said:
Please come back. We miss you.

Thank you for the kind words...but no guarantees.

Edit. I see the forum platform is no better - I tried to edit my above post, only to find the edited material doesn't appear....even though it shows when I go back into the Edit Box.

I didnt even notice you're 'gone'.

Where and why and if why back?

Anyhow, good to read you.
 

Infiniteloop

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nemo78 said:
Infiniteloop said:
A good Valve Amp is likely to give you the sound you want with the Ref 1's IMO.

Hi thanks have you tried a good valve amp with the Ref 1?

Yes indeed. I've auditioned the Ref 1's with both my Devialet and Unison Research S8 on separate occasions. The Devialet is very neutral, powerful and has masses of resolution and sounds great with both my Sonus Fabers and Focals, but I thought it was all a bit too much with the Ref 1's.

With the S8 the Ref 1's were much better. Much more musical and less 'HiFi'. There was still lots of resolution and power but the result was very listenable and non-fatiguing. The sort of sound that makes everything sound great. I still prefer the Focals, but the Ref 1's with the S8 was a pretty good match IMO.

There are a lot of people who will dismiss valves without really listening. However, for some, with the right combination, not much comes close.
 

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