If you think you don’t need EQ, you haven’t tried it

[matt49]

Yes, folks, if you think you don’t need EQ, you haven’t tried it!

OK, this is a provocation, but not a silly one. The idea is this: there’s no system that couldn’t benefit from having a bit of digital EQ applied, and this applies to all-analog systems as much as to digital ones.

The first and most rewarding form of EQ applies to bass. Pretty much all domestic spaces are compromised as far as bass is concerned. Sure, you can move your speakers around (maybe) or your listening chair. But there will still be an issue with bass quality, because all domestic rooms suffer from bass modes. The only practical means to deal with bass modes is digital EQ.

But there’s a lot of other stuff that can prove huge beneficial. Once you achieve a natural FR balance, you won’t look back. This might involve putting in a “house curve” (a gentle downwards tilt of the bass and treble) or a psychoacoustic 3kHz dip, or a lift in the mid-bass between 100 and 500Hz to provide real slam from drums.

All of this is dead easy to do with a unit like the DSPeaker Anti-Mode. It can fit seamlessly into any system (analog and digital), and the cost is paltry compared to what you might spend on a more expensive amp or speakers.

Come on down and join the EQ revival!

*bomb*

 

[SteveR750]

Matt, you don't even "need" a monitoring device like the Antimode, just your ears!! yes! Really, it works!!

Seriously though, I have experimented with the EQ function in J River a lot, and have added a gentle upward bass tilt from 240Hz down, so that I have around +3dB at 60Hz. There's no lower octave adjustment, which is a pity, but then that is in sub territory and there's a whole separate sub control part of MC19.

Mind you, I'd love to have a play with the DSpeaker, only to determine the flat(test) room setting, so that I have a correct reference.

 

[pyrrhon]

Songs are mixed in a very different manner and its far from beeing that absolute science puriste refer to. Its very random how bass levels are adjusted and will depend on so many uncontrolled factors. The absolute proof is when we listen at the same level on our system there are huge bass level difference from a song to another. There is also the differences from day to day because hearing varys too. I experienced how a flu, tiredness, coming out of a noisy place, alcool, ... will all change how much bass we hear. For me when bass lacks its the soul of the song thats missing and I use equalizers a lot. When I listen to london grammar, Hey Now its one of those rare songs I get enought bass at flat otherwise I crank it up.

 

[steve_1979]

Songs are mixed in a very different manner and its far from beeing that absolute science puriste refer to. Its very random how bass levels are adjusted and will depend on so many uncontrolled factors. The absolute proof is when we listen at the same level on our system there are huge bass level difference from a song to another. There is also the differences from day to day because hearing varys too. I experienced how a flu, tiredness, coming out of a noisy place, alcool, ... will all change how much bass we hear. For me when bass lacks its the soul of the song thats missing and I use equalizers a lot. When I listen to london grammar, Hey Now its one of those rare songs I get enought bass at flat otherwise I crank it up.

+1

The tonal balance of music varies a lot from album to album. I sometimes adjust the volume of my subwoofer to suit depending on what I'm listening too. A few tracks have far too much treble and I've reduced it using Audacity and saved the changes so that I don't need to fiddle with the EQ every time I play them.

This said most music sounds fine on my system without any EQing being needed at all.

 

[steve_1979]

DSPeaker Anti-Mode

I'll probably end up getting one of those for my subwoofer before too long.

 

[LDTM]

I'm seriously thinking about adding the DSPeaker unit to my kit. There is an outfit that sells it in Japan but it's too far away to justify a trip to audition it. I'm not certain they will accept returns in cases of dissatisfaction either. I did happen to see a clip on Youtube where some chap played a few songs with the device engaged and disengaged, quite interesting.

I wonder how much of an improvement it might yield to my kit...

Hmm...what to do..... *unknw*

 

[matt49]

This said most music sounds fine on my system without any EQing being needed at all.

Yes, but what kind of EQ have you actually tried? Have you measured you're listening position for bass modes? Have you tried a decent automated bass EQ system? Have you used proper parametric EQ? Have you tried dialling in the kind of dips and peaks I mentioned?

 

[hoopsontoast]

I have used both a MiniDSP module and Antimode in two seperate systems.

I would say it CAN help but its not a 100% soloution, I found, especially with bass issues that a lot can be tuned out with measuring equipment, some passive room treatment and a bit of time.

As an example below, the Tannoy Stirling HE with Antimode (Dark Blue) without Antimode (Light Blue), With Antimode and Stuffing (Orange) and Without Antimode but with Stuffing (Red).

Both Subjectivly and Objectively I prefered the no Antimode Option, with some stuffing and lifting them up a bit.

 

[hoopsontoast]

FWIW, I prefer the MiniDSP 2x4 unit over the Antimode Dual Core, more flexible and easier to use, a LOT cheaper too.

 

[matt49]

I have used both a MiniDSP module and Antimode in two seperate systems.

I would say it CAN help but its not a 100% soloution, I found, especially with bass issues that a lot can be tuned out with measuring equipment, some passive room treatment and a bit of time.

As an example below, the Tannoy Stirling HE with Antimode (Dark Blue) without Antimode (Light Blue), With Antimode and Stuffing (Orange) and Without Antimode but with Stuffing (Red).

Both Subjectivly and Objectively I prefered the no Antimode Option, with some stuffing and lifting them up a bit.

Apologies: what do you mean by "stuffing"? Are you talking about passive treatments? Did you try any other EQ tweaks, aside from the automatic bass EQ?

FWIW, I prefer the MiniDSP 2x4 unit over the Antimode Dual Core, more flexible and easier to use, a LOT cheaper too.

I'm pleased to hear you say the MiniDSP is easy to use. I haven't tried it yet, because I assumed it'd be more fiddly than the DSPeaker, but perhaps I was wrong.

 

[SteveR750]

FWIW, I prefer the MiniDSP 2x4 unit over the Antimode Dual Core, more flexible and easier to use, a LOT cheaper too.

I asked them what is the recommended product for my needs (i.e. an in line DSP only, no DAC required) and they suggested this which is not cheap at $900!!

I'm also confused by their wiring diagram and explanation, having told me that I can only use it with a toslink connection from the PC to the unit, and from the unit to the Hegel, even though it shows a USB connection. I'd have to buy another unit if I want to stream USB from the DSP box into the amp, and that's another $115!!

Hoops, how does your 2x4 unit fit into your system?

 

[hoopsontoast]

I have used both a MiniDSP module and Antimode in two seperate systems.

I would say it CAN help but its not a 100% soloution, I found, especially with bass issues that a lot can be tuned out with measuring equipment, some passive room treatment and a bit of time.

As an example below, the Tannoy Stirling HE with Antimode (Dark Blue) without Antimode (Light Blue), With Antimode and Stuffing (Orange) and Without Antimode but with Stuffing (Red).

Both Subjectivly and Objectively I prefered the no Antimode Option, with some stuffing and lifting them up a bit.

Apologies: what do you mean by "stuffing"? Are you talking about passive treatments? Did you try any other EQ tweaks, aside from the automatic bass EQ?

FWIW, I prefer the MiniDSP 2x4 unit over the Antimode Dual Core, more flexible and easier to use, a LOT cheaper too.

I'm pleased to hear you say the MiniDSP is easy to use. I haven't tried it yet, because I assumed it'd be more fiddly than the DSPeaker, but perhaps I was wrong.

Hi, yes, stuffing was in the ports to reduce the output, i tried different amounts a locatiōns in the Stirlings Distributed Port System, as well as foam bass absorbers and measuring the effects of lifting them up (floor bounce).

The Antimode is easy in that you press a couple of buttons but then trying to alter or add any PEQX is a PITA.

The MiniDSP is more hands on but you get realtime control as you can change anything on the fly, the pc interface is also extremely good. The integration with REW is handy too.

The MiniDSP 2x4 is also only £150ish with the UMIK-1 mic bundled in, compared to £700 for the Antimode.

 

[hoopsontoast]

FWIW, I prefer the MiniDSP 2x4 unit over the Antimode Dual Core, more flexible and easier to use, a LOT cheaper too.

I asked them what is the recommended product for my needs (i.e. an in line DSP only, no DAC required) and they suggested this which is not cheap at $900!!

I'm also confused by their wiring diagram and explanation, having told me that I can only use it with a toslink connection from the PC to the unit, and from the unit to the Hegel, even though it shows a USB connection. I'd have to buy another unit if I want to stream USB from the DSP box into the amp, and that's another $115!!

Hoops, how does your 2x4 unit fit into your system?

AFAIK the Dirac series are plug-and-play soloutions, the MiniDSP 2x4 is a bit more hands on, but you just buy the board, select the $10 PEQ plugin and away you go. I had mine inbetwen the Pre and Power Amp, or if your amp integrated has a Pre-Out/Power In.

 

[matt49]

Hi, yes, stuffing was in the ports to reduce the output, i tried different amounts a locatiōns in the Stirlings Distributed Port System, as well as foam bass absorbers and measuring the effects of lifting them up (floor bounce).

Gotcha.

The Antimode is easy in that you press a couple of buttons but then trying to alter or add any PEQX is a PITA.

I found adding extra PEQX was fairly simple and flexible, and the instructions are a fine example of the genre.

The MiniDSP is more hands on but you get realtime control as you can change anything on the fly, the pc interface is also extremely good. The integration with REW is handy too.

The MiniDSP 2x4 is also only £150ish with the UMIK-1 mic bundled in, compared to £700 for the Antimode.

Again, good to hear. I've been toying with the idea of building my own active OB speakers, where the MiniDSP modules would be ideal. Whether it'll ever happen though ...

 

[steve_1979]

This said most music sounds fine on my system without any EQing being needed at all.

Yes, but what kind of EQ have you actually tried? Have you measured you're listening position for bass modes? Have you tried a decent automated bass EQ system? Have you used proper parametric EQ? Have you tried dialling in the kind of dips and peaks I mentioned?

I've only made adjustments by ear and haven't had the chance to take any measurements yet as I dont have the equipment but hopefully at some point in the future I'll get some proper DSP for the sub and possiblily even for the stereo speakers too. It'll be interesting to give it a try to see what effect it has.

At the church of AVI Ash says that DSP is generally bad (unless you have a major bass issue) because using DSP effects the phase and it doesn't usually matter much if the frequency response in room isn't perfect because your ears hear the speakers first and your brain uses as a reference and it will automatically filter out the sound of the room subconsciously. I'm open minded and am willing to give it a try anyway.

 

[SteveR750]

This said most music sounds fine on my system without any EQing being needed at all.

Yes, but what kind of EQ have you actually tried? Have you measured you're listening position for bass modes? Have you tried a decent automated bass EQ system? Have you used proper parametric EQ? Have you tried dialling in the kind of dips and peaks I mentioned?

I've only made adjustments by ear and haven't had the chance to take any measurements yet as I dont have the equipment but hopefully at some point in the future I'll get some proper DSP for the sub and possiblily even for the stereo speakers too. It'll be interesting to give it a try to see what effect it has.

At the church of AVI Ash says that DSP is generally bad (unless you have a major bass issue) because using DSP effects the phase and it doesn't usually matter much if the frequency response in room isn't perfect because your ears hear the speakers first and your brain uses as a reference and it will automatically filter out the sound of the room subconsciously. I'm open minded and am willing to give it a try anyway.

How does that work?

 

[wilro15]

+1 for Anti-mode! Haven't used the other DSP system though.

 

[steve_1979]

This said most music sounds fine on my system without any EQing being needed at all.

Yes, but what kind of EQ have you actually tried? Have you measured you're listening position for bass modes? Have you tried a decent automated bass EQ system? Have you used proper parametric EQ? Have you tried dialling in the kind of dips and peaks I mentioned?

I've only made adjustments by ear and haven't had the chance to take any measurements yet as I dont have the equipment but hopefully at some point in the future I'll get some proper DSP for the sub and possiblily even for the stereo speakers too. It'll be interesting to give it a try to see what effect it has.

At the church of AVI Ash says that DSP is generally bad (unless you have a major bass issue) because using DSP effects the phase and it doesn't usually matter much if the frequency response in room isn't perfect because your ears hear the speakers first and your brain uses as a reference and it will automatically filter out the sound of the room subconsciously. I'm open minded and am willing to give it a try anyway.

How does that work?

I don't really understand it myself TBH.

 

[gasolin]

Most speakers aren't neutral even entry level studio monitors aren't neutral

Krk rookit 5 g2 and 3 are mid bass heavy a dip in the higher midrange and a bit high top, the new g3 had some adjustments where the bass could be lowered if nesseary

Remembered the old b&w 801 mabye 20-25 years had alot of bass mabye 6 db but sounded good

I don't like a bright and thin sound or a overwhelming bass or just like the krk's make every singer sound like barry white or isaac hayes.

My Boston acoustics a 23 (the same as the a360 midrange and tweeter, they just goes down to 80hz where the a360 as i remember only goes down to 800hz) are actually really full boodied with male singers and even if they are not bass heavy they are good as small speaker for a pc, even without a subwoofer

I feel if theres isn't much bass thers somthing missing, bass is very importent, i do how ever findt it to sound best if the record has the right amout of bass rather the have to adjust the level manual, it just don't sound as good if you have to adjust it manually

Most rock music from the 80's has not enough bas and edm has to much bass often lead to distortion at high levels

 

[matt49]

This said most music sounds fine on my system without any EQing being needed at all.

Yes, but what kind of EQ have you actually tried? Have you measured you're listening position for bass modes? Have you tried a decent automated bass EQ system? Have you used proper parametric EQ? Have you tried dialling in the kind of dips and peaks I mentioned?

I've only made adjustments by ear and haven't had the chance to take any measurements yet as I dont have the equipment but hopefully at some point in the future I'll get some proper DSP for the sub and possiblily even for the stereo speakers too. It'll be interesting to give it a try to see what effect it has.

At the church of AVI Ash says that DSP is generally bad (unless you have a major bass issue) because using DSP effects the phase and it doesn't usually matter much if the frequency response in room isn't perfect because your ears hear the speakers first and your brain uses as a reference and it will automatically filter out the sound of the room subconsciously. I'm open minded and am willing to give it a try anyway.

How does that work?

I don't really understand it myself TBH.

LOL

 

[lindsayt]

I've only made adjustments by ear and haven't had the chance to take any measurements yet as I dont have the equipment but hopefully at some point in the future I'll get some proper DSP for the sub and possiblily even for the stereo speakers too. It'll be interesting to give it a try to see what effect it has.

At the church of AVI Ash says that DSP is generally bad (unless you have a major bass issue) because using DSP effects the phase and it doesn't usually matter much if the frequency response in room isn't perfect because your ears hear the speakers first and your brain uses as a reference and it will automatically filter out the sound of the room subconsciously. I'm open minded and am willing to give it a try anyway.

With Ash it's marketing, marketing, marketing. Some of which is based in reality, most of which is just marketing nonsense.

AVI don't use DSP. Therefore Mr James says it's generally bad.

AVI don't use passive crossovers, Therefore Mr James says they're 10's / 100's / 1000's times worse than active.

AVI use 2 way speakers with an optional sub. Therefore 3 / 4 / 5 ways are worse according to Mr James.

AVI make small speakers with a small optional sub. Therefore large speakers are worse according to Mr James.

AVI use current in-production drivers. Therefore old speakers are just there to be ridiculed by Mr James.

AVI don't use valves. Therefore valve amps are lacking in fidelity according to Mr James.

Yada, yada, yada. And so on.

What's more likely? That most of what Mr James says is true and the AVI way of doing things is the best way? Or that he's using reverse engineering marketing, where he makes up nonsense where he talks about the AVI way of doing things as the best way and any other way as inferior?

Get an anti-AVI system (analogue, vintage, passive, with valves, 3 / 4 / 5 way, large speakers, etc etc etc) in the same room as an AVI system and listen to them. If Mr James marketing had any merit at all, the AVI system would sound significantly superior.

His pronouncement on DSP is just another one of his marketing fantasies. The reality of DSP is that it's all "Ifs and buts" and "it depends".

 

[SteveR750]

Right, this sounds excitingly dangerous. I was reading through the J River wiki to check on phasing in DSP settings, and investigated the parametric equaliser that's included in the DSP settings, and stumbled across something called the Linkwitz Transform. Clearly if not handled with care, it's either going to fry the amp, and or fire the bass mid drivers across the room and possibly kill the cat...

I'm going to try to see if there is enough power and excursion to be able to offset the -6dB at 48Hz spec so that they are flat to 40Hz (bass guitar bottom E) and then introduce a steep high pass to preserve any remaining headroom. Let's see how the calculations go first...

 

[ellisdj]

I wouldnt do that if I were you.

The spec will not translate to reality - you might have a peak in your room at 50hz so boosting that even more will be a negative.

Or you might have a null in which case your just wasting your time with potential to damage the kit as you say.

Lintwitz transforms are used in BK subs I think to boost low end - there maye be some info there to help you.

I think you need to measure your response as a first step - guesswork with bass does not work its simple as that.

Get up the REW help tutorials and get a cheap radioshack SPL metre if you dont want to a buy a mic - that will give you true idea of whats going on in your room - only after that will you know what to do

 

[SteveR750]

I'm doing the calcs first to see what headroom I have. I just spoke to Ben Lilly at ATC about it, clearly it won't "fix" a room node (only moving position or treating the room or adding a sub could do that), but the parametric EQ could extend the bass reponse a bit further, bearing in mind it's natural roll off is -6dB at 48Hz. Of course, any hotspots will get hotter, and a node will stay as a node.

he also told me that the DSP adjustments can cause pahse shifts, so Steve is correct! The idea is to keep the Q factor low, so avoid sharp peaks, keep them smooth and gradual to minimise any phase problems. Ultimately, it's a more scientific solution than simply lifting up the sliders on the EQ studio to guesstimated levels.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Don't use EQ/DSP to boost dips, only ever cut peaks. Address any dips with passive treatments otherwise you run the risk of damage to your amp.