If you think you don’t need EQ, you haven’t tried it

[ellisdj]

Edit says 1/6 smoothing applied - like the look of the curve of the graph. Can you get graphs without smoothing?? If that's using rew then of course you can? If using rew can you post waterfall to show effect on decay

Is that eq across the full range also - looks like it - personal pref on that one

Good example of what antimode will do as those are big peaks in the bass which would sound nasty

 

[matt49]

Edit says 1/6 smoothing applied - like the look of the curve of the graph. Can you get graphs without smoothing?? If that's using rew then of course you can?

Yes, in their raw state the graphs have no smoothing; they're more difficult to assess though.

If using rew can you post waterfall to show effect on decay

I may get round to that, but not today.

Is that eq across the full range also - looks like it - personal pref on that one

Yes, it's interesting how low the speakers go. Must be a room effect: they'd be nowehere near that if measured anechoically.

Good example of what antimode will do as those are big peaks in the bass which would sound nasty

Correct.

 

[ellisdj]

Is that all done via rew or output from the antimode?

 

[matt49]

Is that all done via rew or output from the antimode?

The EQ is all done via the Anti-mode. The LF is corrected automatically, plus I manually dialled in a 3kHz 'psychoacoustic dip', a boost around 500Hz and a tilt down from 1000Hz.

I only used REW for the measurements/graphs. The test tones are produced by REW on a laptop and the mic is plugged in to the same laptop.

The chain is nice and simple:

Laptop (USB out) > DSPeaker Anti-mode (in pre-amp mode) > Sanders Magtech power amp > Martin Logan Montis.

 

[ellisdj]

I can see what you have done there - Good to see

I wondered if the antimode had a graph output but it's rew graphs that's what I was asking. Like the idea of inputting manually

Does the antimode have a decent power supply battery or linear or a wall wart cheapo style??

Could be nice upgrade if it's crappy wall style especially using as preamp.

 

[ellisdj]

Be interesting see the waterfall on that response to see the effect your manual eq has had see if there are negatives of boosting.

Never done any eq boosting so don't know ? Thanks

 

[matt49]

On of the interesting things to come out of this is the LF extension.I would have bet on its tailing away quite badly below 40Hz, but that isn't the case. So it seems as though I don't need a sub after all. *i-m_so_happy*

 

[ellisdj]

Yeah extension good upper bass is good but big nulls in lower bass.

I would bet no smoothing show things bit differently as well 1/6 glosses over some cracks.

Not worth sweating over it too much but the inclusion of a sub /s could help you fill those nulls so be worth considering for a different reason

 

[wilro15]

@matt49 how are you finding the sound quality of the anti mode?

I use mine in the digital domain only. Recently discovered that the digital out is re-sampled to 48kHz no matter what the input is. The hifi nerd in me is now worrying that sound quality is affected!

Grrrr I was happy until I discovered that!

 

[matt49]

@matt49 how are you finding the sound quality of the anti mode?

I use mine in the digital domain only. Recently discovered that the digital out is re-sampled to 48kHz no matter what the input is. The hifi nerd in me is now worrying that sound quality is affected!

Grrrr I was happy until I discovered that!

I think it's a theoretical problem, not a real one. I normally use the Anti-Mode in digital only; it seems fine. Or at any rate, the good work it's doing far outweighs any theoretical deterioration it might cause.

Yeah extension good upper bass is good but big nulls in lower bass.

I would bet no smoothing show things bit differently as well 1/6 glosses over some cracks.

Not worth sweating over it too much but the inclusion of a sub /s could help you fill those nulls so be worth considering for a different reason

Sorry, I can't see the nulls you're referring to. Where are they?

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Matt - on the corrected reponse you seemed to have a wide one at about 45hz and one at 80hz - I thought that was a null and a sub placed in a different spot could help fill that.

But the non corrected response doesnt look the same - you seem to have more positive effects of the room interaction which is better lucky you.

The corrected response is at a much higher volume - it appears you have a lot more at 30hz at that volume - did you apply any lift there - I remember my antimode had a 30hz lift option

 

[SteveR750]

On of the interesting things to come out of this is the LF extension.I would have bet on its tailing away quite badly below 40Hz, but that isn't the case. So it seems as though I don't need a sub after all. *i-m_so_happy*

Interesting Matt, my conclusion was that providing a bit of subjective tilt using the standard EQ doesn't really make any noticeable difference - I only notice the difference immeditaly after the change. In truth, if it's flat or lifted, I don't suddenly feel the bass is more or less extended, in fact the subjective quality doesn't change. The bass sounds equally extended whatever the settings, within reason of course. So, although on paper my speakers have quite a rolled of LF response, they don't sound weak, and like you I'm not sure adding a sub will do much for music. Films of course might be an altogether different thing.

 

[CnoEvil]

....and like you I'm not sure adding a sub will do much for music.

I suppose that depends on the music.....some of which has information that plummets to 12 - 24Hz. This isn't the stuff that hits you in the chest, but the stuff makes your toes curl and your large intestine do summersaults.

 

[SteveR750]

....and like you I'm not sure adding a sub will do much for music.

I suppose that depends on the music.....some of which has information that plummets to 12 - 24Hz. This isn't the stuff that hits you in the chest, but the stuff makes your toes curl and your large intestine do summersaults.

I've been playing about with the JL Audio E-110 with a variety of music and with some test tones too. I used a fixed 40Hz sine (ish, it was youtube after all) wave to set the sub phase up correctly. The other tone was a series of step downs from 120Hz down to 5Hz. What I heard and saw was interesting, as i tried them with and without the sub and differeing volumes and crossover frequencies. I've discovered a humongous room resonance that's around 40 - 50Hz. As you descend through 100 - 90 - 80 - 70 - 60 the volume is relatively constant, though reducing as expected. At 50Hz and 40Hz tone the volume jumps dramatically, it's actually uncomfortable to listen to. At 30Hz, both the ATC and the sub drivers are moving a lot, but it's the sub that's putting a lot more energy into the room. Likewise at 25 and 20Hz, the sub is adding a noticeable audible extension. 15Hz is inaudible, but you can feel it through the house, and by that frequency the little JL is running out of capability to shift enough air. One thing is clear, you need a lot of excursion or driver diameter to be really effective below 30Hz and give you that stomach churning effect.

I've also noticed that the seating position is optimum for different frequencies. The 50hz Fr is strongest around 3ft to the rear of the strongest position for 60 upwards. I moved my chair backwards using the 40Hz test tone, but listening to real music, some of the life had been sucked out of it, and the bass was missing....I really need to try an antimode thing and do it properly.

 

[ellisdj]

to set the phase up you need to monitor the effect the sub phase is having through and around the crossover point - it cannaffect the whole range or just part of the range which will be about 60 - 80 hz in total - thats a guess buts it a big range

The correct phase will have the least negative effect i.e. no cancellation of other frequencies both above and below the crossover

The only way you can do this 100% bang on that I know of is measuring properly and adjusting to see what is best - REW springs to mind, sure there are other methods to measure too. It makes a big difference I have 1 sub on 102 degree phase and the other on 132 degress I think my subs have digital displays thats how know the number.

Worth investing the time in REW to get it bang on -

 

[SteveR750]

i'ms sure you're right, though rotating it through 180 degrees it's obvious there is a cancellation effect taking place, but using my ears, it's a pretty large range of the adjustment dial that sounds optimum. The drivers are pretty much in line, so it's at 0 degrees. Sub is fed from the pre-out from the Hegel, so it should be in phase with the power amp output stage

 

[ellisdj]

the ears wont cut it for something like this, its too difficult - tried for years, failed for years - measured for about a 2 years - tried this properly twice and success!!

Its a lot easier to do this with a stereo sub setups one sub for one speaker - with one sub trying to do it for both will always be a compromise - why measuring even more important

Not saying it other than its very true and important and might help

 

[SteveR750]

Well I concentrated on setting the phase alignment as best I could. Wow! The trick is use the null mode, not the complimentary mode. It's so much easier to hear a null than a reinforcement. As it happens I was way out on the phase alignment, and I also had to sub volume up too high, not by much. I also raised the cross over F so there is better integration, though I'm still experimenting to try to manually remove the room fundamental that's around 50 - 55Hz ish. Interestingly, the Linkwitz model I used predicted a Fr of 54Hz for my room.

Madeleine Peyroux's double bass player is even easier to follow. Polly Comes Home sounded sublime, and Mamma Mia (one of my all time favourite bass lines ever) just rocks it all along.