How much to spend on each component?

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

john dolan

New member
Dec 20, 2008
3
0
0
Visit site
shado:For me back in the 90's the next item I wanted to upgrade was my Rotel 965BX CD Player that I had grown to cherish. This was £300 when I bought it so I assumed the next upgrade I could afford was up to £600. So I listened to an Arcam player at this price and a Cyrus. There was also a product that had just been launched called "Dac in the Box" that I recall was £250 and with a QED Digital cable at £50. The Rotel and Dac Combo to me was more superior and I recall the Hifi Dealer at Radfords (now taken over by Sevenoakes) was amazed at how good the combo was over the more expensive players. For me it was nice to see that someone else agreed with my choice as I was obviously slightly biased / loyal to the Rotel but for me this was an improvement over my old setup. Sadly after this stage with a new baby on the scene I sold my Hifi to someone who still appreciates it now and who bought the Dac in the box and QED lead. To me budgetly you can reach an impasse where minor tweaks may be just the answer over a complete upgrade.Shado i know how great the dac in a box can sound http://dik.dolan.googlepages.com/argo5.JPG i still have it somewhere stashed with my original dacmagic.I always prefered it over the cambridge.
emotion-1.gif
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I just received this from a friend and like the Audio Critic and us, it makes the same point so that you can see that whilst it is not necessarily the view of WHFers' it is widely held amongst the scientific community.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/

Particularly interesting is the quote at the bottom of the post...

"It may already be too late according to Stereophile magazine founder, Gordon Holt, who lamented in a recent interview:

"Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me.."

So why, do you suppose, does Stereophile continue to write subjective, even grotesquely poetic reviews, that elevate the expensive and inferior? Could it be that is what their readers want?

Tim

Here is the whole interview: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
Visit site
Of course, mags dont review "obejectively" because they wouldnt sell. and this is because most would be bored and or confused. This isnt snobbery, its just true, and, for the record, i am one of the "most".
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,257
34
19,220
Visit site
Ashley James:...whilst it is not necessarily the view of
WHFers' it is widely held amongst the scientific community.

Sorry Ashley, but with 220 posts on the WHF forums - and a 5 star product in it's review section - then I conclude you are a 'WHFer' as much as anyone else here.

Also, being a 'WHFer' and being part of the 'scientific community' are not mutually exclusive conditions. I know for a fact that we have some professionally qualified engineers, scientists and technicians and a whole raft of IT folk here amongst our 'fold'.

It would be nice if you changed this position you maintain of dropping in from the 'Planet Rational' to preach to the crazy 'Hifi seperates' cavemen! You made a good living at building seperates yourself for some years until very recently. Remember the 'rational' Cadbury's Smash robots who fell around laughing at all the old-fashioned idiots with their home made food? Ever tasted instant mash compared to the real thing? That is one example where 'Science' doesn't always hold the answer and shows that not everything cooked up in a lab is superior.
 
T

the record spot

Guest
I'm not entirely sure it's fair to lump all of this on hifi fans doorsteps; there are wide ranging opinions in this hobby. Most of us just like the music. I think it's fair enough to say that measuring can show how well a given piece of kit might be able to perform. That doesn't automatically make it that it will be the best sounding one.

Interesting that subjectivity features in Ash's posts of late; seems that it has its' place after all, albeit apparently from listeners of a higher mortal order than the rest of us...
emotion-5.gif


No offence Ash; I'm sure none taken.
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
I think there is an issue here of expectation and differences in people's ultimate aims. Ashley's focus is on the old aims of the high end. That is, as much fidelity as possible to the live musical experience and/or the original recording. The aim of many people on this forum (me included) is, I would suggest, musical enjoyment. The two are not necessarily the same thing and are not necessarily compatible with each other, and this is where the differences of opinion stem from. Intrinsically tied up with all this is the matter of each person's preferred musical tastes.

Reproducing acoustic instruments accurately (as found in classical, jazz, and folk music) makes very different requirements to the reproduction of amplified instruments. Recordings of acoustic music require a fidelity to the tonal qualities of the instruments and the ability to render information such as attack and decay as well as overall soundstaging and ambience. High end hi-fi has always strived to reproduce this as accurately as possible to the point of occasionally becoming sterile and clinical in its presentation. To a certain extent this accuracy is vital and I, for one, would not want to be without elements of it. In particular, the reproduction of tonal qualities is central to my enjoyment of orchestral music and if a system can't correctly place the various sections and players within the orchestra in a stable and convincing manner I get very irritated. However, I also become irritated when these elements are so over-played that they no longer sound musical, and instead result in listening becoming an exchange of information rather than a holistic experience. The achilles heel of so much hi-fi has always been that it too frequently reminds you that you are listening to hi-fi rather than music and the relationship with the music becomes a clinical one. This can be helpful and, indeed, during my BMus and MMus level studies I found an exhaustive level of detail and information extremely useful to my musical analysis. As a listening experience for pleasure, however, it becomes tiring and overly scientific. Furthermore, a system which successfully recreates the soundstage and the acoustic within which the performance took place can make you feel as though you are trying to shoe-horn something too large into a small domestic space. Yes, these elements are needed, but there is a fine line between what is acceptable and what becomes uncomfortable and that line is positioned differently for different listeners.

With amplified music, such as rock or pop, the criteria for successful reproduction change if we are looking to re-create the live sound. Live sound at gigs is often very very loud, bright and, at least until we adjust to it, can feel quite uncomfortable. To successfully re-create this in a domestic situation requires huge amounts of power from a system and an element of the raggedness of on-stage back-line reinforcement and PA sound. The qualities required for reproducing acoustic music can often hinder this and this is perhaps why, at the higher end of audio, there has always been more of a focus on acoustic music rather than any other. The trouble is how many of us actually WANT to experience that live sound over extended listening sessions in our own domestic room? Most of us can never deploy the necessary volume levels anyway due to consideration for those around us and the majority of us would find it a tiring and headache inducing experience. Again it ends up being like shoe-horning a huge scale experience into a small space and it becomes uncomfortable.

In terms of faithful reproduction of recordings this can lead to wonderful sound where the recording has been properly engineered and produced. However, the vast majority of great music has not been recorded with decent engineering and such discs can become difficult to listen to on a system which measures well and is ultra-revealing. The hi-fi then becomes a barrier to enjoying particular recordings or albums. When the hi-fi, and the scientific pursuit of accuracy, begins to affect the listener's musical choices it has, in my view, completely failed.

All of this shows how many compromises are involved in reproduction of music within the home, and its made all the more complicated by the fact that many of us listen to a wide range of music across different styles and genres. The whole concept of reproducing music in the home is a compromise and this is the precise reason why subjective opinions are, and always will be, far more important to the vast majority of listeners than scientific measurements and objective reports.

Some may respond by asking what the point is in pursuing hi-fi at all, but my answer to that is that better quality hi-fi, supported by the wide choice of approaches out there, helps each listener to reduce the impact of the compromises involved in reaching their own personal requirements. Audio will only finally die as a hobby when those looking for scientific perfection succeed in eliminating all choice and, consequently, the ability for hi-fi to cater for the myriad different needs of different users.

For evidence look at the users of this forum. There are so many intelligent and erudite members here who have an incredible love of music, but all with different angles and preferences when it comes to their audio equipment. None of us are wrong - just different, and its great that the choice is out there.
 
T

the record spot

Guest
matthewpiano:None of us are wrong - just different, and its great that the choice is out there.

It's a shame to have to take this snippet alone out of Matthew's excellent post, but this pretty much sums it up for me.
 

Ajani

New member
Apr 9, 2008
42
0
0
Visit site
Ashley James:I just received this from a friend and like the Audio Critic and us, it makes the same point so that you can see that whilst it is not necessarily the view of WHFers' it is widely held amongst the scientific community.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/

Particularly interesting is the quote at the bottom of the post...

"It may already be too late according to Stereophile magazine founder, Gordon Holt, who lamented in a recent interview:

"Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me.."

So why, do you suppose, does Stereophile continue to write subjective, even grotesquely poetic reviews, that elevate the expensive and inferior? Could it be that is what their readers want?

Tim

Here is the whole interview: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/

Those articles have a lot of great points... but so does the other article (linked within your 2nd arcticle) from Art Dudley:

"What you get out of a hi-fi is art. It isn't quite the same as
live music-it's very different, since microphones and ears don't
function the same way, a fact regarding which even the smartest
engineers seem to have an endless supply of self-delusion-but it is music, and it is art. How you interact with it is your business."


Dudley sees replaying recorded music as art rather than the science of trying to reproduce the live event...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
As a scientist myself (though not in electronics or acoustics) I see both sides to this discussion. As I long ago heard "everything in moderation ... including moderation". I particularly enjoy Ashley's posts because they derive from experience at solving specific, quantifiable issues with reproducing sound. I would argue that objectivity (good science in this case) is the only way that people can work together to accomplish progress. While I don't dismiss the importance of subjectivity to the individual's experience, the problem is that one man's "airiness bordering on thin" and another man's "politeness in the treble registers" very likely comes from an inaccurate response of some part of the chain and can very likley be fixed with a scientific approach.

My reservations about the "subjectivity is everything" tone, is that it seems to dismiss the strategy of identifying and solving problems as scientific arrogance and implies that listening to every combination ever made and making random perturbations on existing designs is the way to make progress. I think the measurements will get you 95% of the way to where you're going (if you include room set up) and tweaking and personalizing might get you most of the other 5% - of course I do science for a living so that shapes my attitude. Having preached for science, I must admit scientists have a habit of dismissing things we do not know how to measure. Sometimes history shows they were real and important but not yet identified by the scientific community. I'd also agree that you should always listen to what you plan to buy so that you can translate the measurements into the strengths you cherish and the weaknesses you can tolerate. Surely, even the true artists would like to correlate the measurements to their preferences so they learn over time that they can tolerate less base extension in exchange for flat midrange etc.

Original question - my opinion: Decent quality electronics and ample amp power will get you to almost inaudible distortion levels. Speakers have to make electrons into beautiful wave forms - very tough job. While the long term upgrade strategy may change your short term choices, if you have to choose - spend on speakers, IMHO. > 50% on speakers for me!
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
Visit site
ted_canuck: I think the measurements will get you 95% of the way to where you're going...

Which, im afraid, misses the point that they will only get you anywhere near where you're going if you like the sound.*

And im not sure - as a scientist - where you get this 95% from...

I liked the rest tho.

And mathew is spot on with his gist.

*Traditionally, the purpose of hifi is to achieve a live sound, or the sound recorded, as has been said. But the former is imposssible (yes it is) and the latter extremely difficult, so many just want a sound they like. i fail to see where the problem is with this.
 

idc

Well-known member
I have read and re-read the Sean Olive article and here are my thoughts and conclusions.

Thoughts.

The test uses four speakers; G and D are very similar more expensive Harmon speakers, S is a cheaper, smaller Harmon speaker and T an expensive (though we are not told the other speaker prices) other un-named brand. From the article,'The sighted tests produced a significant increase in preference ratings for the larger, more expensive loudspeakers G and D.' However the blind tests also resulted in the more expensive and similar G and D speakers being prefered. The sighted testers had the cheaper speaker S as the least favourite, behind the other brand more expensive speaker T. The blind testers had only a small difference in preference to the cheaper speaker S than to the other brand, more expensive speaker T. But importantly the blind testers rated the cheapest speaker S as being slightly more prefered to the more expensive speaker T.

Firstly I have to make an assumption; that objectively the expensive Harmon speakers G and D are more or less the same and the best, then the expensive other brand speaker T is next and the least expensive, smaller speaker S is the worst. If that is the case then the sighted testers got the speakers in the 'correct' order of best to worst and the blind testers got it partly 'wrong' by rating cheap speaker S above expensive speaker T.

Secondly, the blind testers were more sensitive to speaker positioning that the sighted testers.

Conclusions.

From this Sean Olive concludes that; 'In summary, the sighted and blind loudspeaker listening tests produced significantly different sound quality ratings. The psychological biases in the sighted tests were sufficiently strong that listeners were largely unresponsive to real changes in the sound quality caused by acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker, its position in the room, and the program material. In other words, sighted tests produce dishonest and unreliable measurements of how the product truly sounds..'

My conclusions are, that the sighted testers were more accurate in identifying which was the 'best' and 'worst' speakers and your hear differently with your eyes shut than with your eyes open. I do see how the sighted tests were dishonest and unreliable, there is a jump that Sean Olive makes in that conclusion I do not see.
 

shado

New member
Aug 22, 2008
126
0
0
Visit site
john dolan:shado:For me back in the 90's the next item I wanted to upgrade was my Rotel 965BX CD Player that I had grown to cherish. This was £300 when I bought it so I assumed the next upgrade I could afford was up to £600. So I listened to an Arcam player at this price and a Cyrus. There was also a product that had just been launched called "Dac in the Box" that I recall was £250 and with a QED Digital cable at £50. The Rotel and Dac Combo to me was more superior and I recall the Hifi Dealer at Radfords (now taken over by Sevenoakes) was amazed at how good the combo was over the more expensive players. For me it was nice to see that someone else agreed with my choice as I was obviously slightly biased / loyal to the Rotel but for me this was an improvement over my old setup. Sadly after this stage with a new baby on the scene I sold my Hifi to someone who still appreciates it now and who bought the Dac in the box and QED lead. To me budgetly you can reach an impasse where minor tweaks may be just the answer over a complete upgrade.Shado i know how great the dac in a box can sound http://dik.dolan.googlepages.com/argo5.JPG i still have it somewhere stashed with my original dacmagic.I always prefered it over the cambridge.
emotion-1.gif


Hiya John, back then I had a Pioneer A400 Amp and Sony APM 22ES Speakers plus Wharfedale Diamonds (the Orig series) on Target stands and it was a revelation to an accomplished sound. I like the phot and your setup. My Dual 5150 Turntable from my Grandad had 4 speeds and could have been as old as yours and dare I say on here the older stuff sounded better , no not better useless word unique for that era. I had that Leak stereo 30 and Trough Line Tuner with a Sony 350 Reel to Reel Tape deck and a heavy Sony Demagnetiser from my grandad I will put a photo of it up the Reel to Reel and accessories later on this site as I sold it on E-bay and even though it was not as energetic as the Pioneer sound it had warmth and subtetly spelt that wrong but i am glad I have experienced that setup and my last one. Now I start a new voyage next year with 3K on a new system on a CD based item but I will most likely try and regain my older set additionally when my wife is not noticing, plus some additional tweaks. A toast to the dac in the box.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,257
34
19,220
Visit site
al7478:*Traditionally, the purpose of hifi is to achieve a live sound, or the sound recorded, as has been said. But the former is imposssible (yes it is) and the latter extremely difficult, so many just want a sound they like. i fail to see where the problem is with this.

The problem is with calling it 'hifi' if it does not closely correspond to a set of recognised standards regarding frequency response, distortion, speed variance (turntables), unwanted noise and a hundred other things.

No good saying it is only hifi if you like it. There are millions of other people out there who don't know what that definition means without your ears, experiences and tastes.

One person may like their 1990 Technics amp with the bass & treble turned up to the maximum (and loudness button switched on) through a pair of big resonant old music centre speakers with 12" woofers that they have had since they were 15 years old.

Another may like their 1957 Quad Electrostatics with 33/303 amplifier and Thorens turntable. Yet another person will claim their iPod is as 'hifi' as it can possibly get when played back through £99 dock/speakers.

Someone with £30,000 to spend would not like to have me (or you) to be the arbiter of what hifi is - based on our own systems and tastes - and I would not appreciate being told what is good hifi by someone who is perfectly happy with the sound from their built-in television speakers who thinks anything more ambitious is crazy.

So we need the science and good engineering principles and that body of knowledge and standards built up over most of a century in places like Bell labs and the BBC and EMI and countless other companies and organisations.

Every phono pre-amp needs to adhere to the standard RIAA curve. Every CD player needs to adhere to the Red Book. Amplifiers need to have as little distortion as possible across the whole audible frequency range. Everyone's components need to be compatible with everyone else's so that people can safely plug in CD player XYZ to amplifier ABC and not get fried or get any obvious audible 'nasties' or experience any electrical incompatibilites.

All equipment will vary a little in individual flavour but if manufacturers had carte blanche to throw out scientific/engineering principles and standards then there would be no industry just anarchy.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
al7478 wrote the following post at 04-10-2009 5:26 PM:

ted_canuck:
I think the measurements will get you 95% of the way to where you're going...

Which, im afraid, misses the point that they will only get you anywhere near where you're going if you like the sound.*

And im not sure - as a scientist - where you get this 95% from...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK Al7478 - you got me - the number was sort of arbitrary. Where I was coming from is that we often cite the 95% (2 sigma) confidence interval as being a range where we are "resonably sure" we can state something with confidence. My experience is that when specifications imply I will have difficulty distinguishing between devices, I have found that to be the case. Both specifications and listening tests have steered me to speakers more expensive than my electronics. But I will concede that the meaning of 95% of the way there is not strictly defensible. Also a good point that the precise objectives of listeners are not uniform, hence the phenomenon that optimization seems to take many forms in the community.
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
Visit site
ted_canuck:
al7478 wrote the following post at 04-10-2009 5:26 PM:

ted_canuck:
I think the measurements will get you 95% of the way to where you're going...

Which, im afraid, misses the point that they will only get you anywhere near where you're going if you like the sound.*

And im not sure - as a scientist - where you get this 95% from...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK Al7478 - you got me - the number was sort of arbitrary. Where I was coming from is that we often cite the 95% (2 sigma) confidence interval as being a range where we are "resonably sure" we can state something with confidence. My experience is that when specifications imply I will have difficulty distinguishing between devices, I have found that to be the case. Both specifications and listening tests have steered me to speakers more expensive than my electronics. But I will concede that the meaning of 95% of the way there is not strictly defensible. Also a good point that the precise objectives of listeners are not uniform, hence the phenomenon that optimization seems to take many forms in the community.

emotion-22.gif


2 sigma? Oo-er missus! I'm out me depth now!
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
Visit site
chebby:

al7478:*Traditionally, the purpose of hifi is to achieve a live sound, or the sound recorded, as has been said. But the former is imposssible (yes it is) and the latter extremely difficult, so many just want a sound they like. i fail to see where the problem is with this.

The problem is with calling it 'hifi' if it does not closely correspond to a set of recognised standards regarding frequency response, distortion, speed variance (turntables), unwanted noise and a hundred other things.

I did'nt say it is only hifi if you like it, and my point would have been better had i steered clear of the term hifi.

You make a great point in the above quote tho and, as they say, "i got nuthin'"!

Now there's a rarity.

except this slightly OT point..."fidelity". Can that apply to reproduction of films and is high end cinema kit that measures well also "hifi" or is it just a music term...? I know it is usually - thats how its used...but...

Back to the music and i guess you are into hifi if your kit measures well, but if it doesnt, you're only into "stereo" with a sound you like...

Another question - measurements can tell you how wide ranging, say, a frequency response is ('scuse me, nearly out me depth here, i admit), but can it tell me the msuic will sound liek it was supposed to according to the musicians, producer, and the recording equipment and methods used...?

Finally, just how badly written is this?!
 

idc

Well-known member
al7478:

2 sigma? Oo-er missus! I'm out me depth now!

Al, I think, but I am not sure, that it is better than 1 sigma and not as good as 3 sigma. Horrah, now we are back in the game!
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,257
34
19,220
Visit site
2 Sigma = 95 percent statistical confidence

3 Sigma = 99 percent statistical confidence

(I think)

1-Sigma means all the statistical results within the main 2/3rds of the area of a statistical Bell curve. (Within +/- one standard deviation from the mean)

2-Sigma all the results within approx 95 percent of the area of the Bell curve (within +/- 2 standard deviations)

etc.

1-12.jpg
 

Ajani

New member
Apr 9, 2008
42
0
0
Visit site
idc:
I have read and re-read the Sean Olive article and here are my thoughts and conclusions.

Thoughts.

The test uses four speakers; G and D are very similar more expensive Harmon speakers, S is a cheaper, smaller Harmon speaker and T an expensive (though we are not told the other speaker prices) other un-named brand. From the article,'The sighted tests produced a significant increase in preference ratings for the larger, more expensive loudspeakers G and D.' However the blind tests also resulted in the more expensive and similar G and D speakers being prefered. The sighted testers had the cheaper speaker S as the least favourite, behind the other brand more expensive speaker T. The blind testers had only a small difference in preference to the cheaper speaker S than to the other brand, more expensive speaker T. But importantly the blind testers rated the cheapest speaker S as being slightly more prefered to the more expensive speaker T.

Firstly I have to make an assumption; that objectively the expensive Harmon speakers G and D are more or less the same and the best, then the expensive other brand speaker T is next and the least expensive, smaller speaker S is the worst. If that is the case then the sighted testers got the speakers in the 'correct' order of best to worst and the blind testers got it partly 'wrong' by rating cheap speaker S above expensive speaker T.

Secondly, the blind testers were more sensitive to speaker positioning that the sighted testers.

Conclusions.

From this Sean Olive concludes that; 'In summary, the sighted and blind loudspeaker listening tests produced significantly different sound quality ratings. The psychological biases in the sighted tests were sufficiently strong that listeners were largely unresponsive to real changes in the sound quality caused by acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker, its position in the room, and the program material. In other words, sighted tests produce dishonest and unreliable measurements of how the product truly sounds..'

My conclusions are, that the sighted testers were more accurate in identifying which was the 'best' and 'worst' speakers and your hear differently with your eyes shut than with your eyes open. I do see how the sighted tests were dishonest and unreliable, there is a jump that Sean Olive makes in that conclusion I do not see.



Your conclusion is based on your earlier assumption... So what's the basis for your assumption? That the More Expensive T speaker must be better than cheap Speaker S? Why? Because it's more expensive? (that is the sighted bias that the author is referring to - we automatically assume that more expensive product should be better)...
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
Visit site
idc:al7478:

2 sigma? Oo-er missus! I'm out me depth now!

Al, I think, but I am not sure, that it is better than 1 sigma and not as good as 3 sigma. Horrah, now we are back in the game!

Back in the game! YEAH! C'mon! Im pumped! Whoo! LOL! Thanks idc.

And thankyou Chebby.

As one of the least technically knowledgable here, i can feel a whole load of threads coming on, with requests for remedial tutelage (is that right?) on things like speaker construction...

Right now, however, i need a lie down.
 

Messiah

Well-known member
al7478:
As one of the least technically knowledgable here, i can feel a whole load of threads coming on, with requests for remedial tutelage (is that right?) on things like speaker construction...

Well I find this useful...>>>CLICK ME<<< for loads of background info on many aspects of hifi.
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
Visit site
Messiah:al7478:

As one of the least technically knowledgable here, i can feel a whole load of threads coming on, with requests for remedial tutelage (is that right?) on things like speaker construction...

Well I find this useful...>>>CLICK ME<<< for loads of background info on many aspects of hifi.

Thankyou.
 

idc

Well-known member
Ajani:idc:

I have read and re-read the Sean Olive article and here are my thoughts and conclusions.

Thoughts.

The test uses four speakers; G and D are very similar more expensive Harmon speakers, S is a cheaper, smaller Harmon speaker and T an expensive (though we are not told the other speaker prices) other un-named brand. From the article,'The sighted tests produced a significant increase in preference ratings for the larger, more expensive loudspeakers G and D.' However the blind tests also resulted in the more expensive and similar G and D speakers being prefered. The sighted testers had the cheaper speaker S as the least favourite, behind the other brand more expensive speaker T. The blind testers had only a small difference in preference to the cheaper speaker S than to the other brand, more expensive speaker T. But importantly the blind testers rated the cheapest speaker S as being slightly more prefered to the more expensive speaker T.

Firstly I have to make an assumption; that objectively the expensive Harmon speakers G and D are more or less the same and the best, then the expensive other brand speaker T is next and the least expensive, smaller speaker S is the worst. If that is the case then the sighted testers got the speakers in the 'correct' order of best to worst and the blind testers got it partly 'wrong' by rating cheap speaker S above expensive speaker T.

Secondly, the blind testers were more sensitive to speaker positioning that the sighted testers.

Conclusions.

From this Sean Olive concludes that; 'In summary, the sighted and blind loudspeaker listening tests produced significantly different sound quality ratings. The psychological biases in the sighted tests were sufficiently strong that listeners were largely unresponsive to real changes in the sound quality caused by acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker, its position in the room, and the program material. In other words, sighted tests produce dishonest and unreliable measurements of how the product truly sounds..'

My conclusions are, that the sighted testers were more accurate in identifying which was the 'best' and 'worst' speakers and your hear differently with your eyes shut than with your eyes open. I do see how the sighted tests were dishonest and unreliable, there is a jump that Sean Olive makes in that conclusion I do not see.



Your conclusion is based on your earlier assumption... So what's the basis for your assumption? That the More Expensive T speaker must be better than cheap Speaker S? Why? Because it's more expensive? (that is the sighted bias that the author is referring to - we automatically assume that more expensive product should be better)...

I have no basis for my assumption. I made the assumption because otherwise how is the test an indication of which is the better way of rating speaker performance? Sean Olive's aim is to prove that blind testing is more accurate than sighted when rating speaker performance. But he has not stated which speaker is best and why that is the case. So what has he proved. All I can see is that he has proved is that both sighted and blind testers can tell different speakers apart, but they reach different conclusions whether sighted or blind. So quite how Sean Olive reaches his conclusion that sighted tests are dishonest and unreliable is beyond me. In other words if I do not make an assumption as to which is the best speaker, what is the point of any group test, sighted or not?
 

idc

Well-known member
Messiah:al7478:

As one of the least technically knowledgable here, i can feel a whole load of threads coming on, with requests for remedial tutelage (is that right?) on things like speaker construction...

Well I find this useful...>>>CLICK ME<<< for loads of background info on many aspects of hifi.

Messiah, I am gutted. I thought that with you being the Messiah and all that, you just had an omniscience about you. But it turns out that you get your knowledge from a website called 'How stuff works' Does your dad know about this?
emotion-4.gif
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts