How Close Do You Think We Get To The Real Thing?

[Vladimir]

To try to get it back on topic, because basically I reckon it's a very good question worthwhile of a proper discussion, did we come to a decision over what 'the real thing' actually meant? Do we mean the performance, the file sat on the mastering-engineer's hard drive, something inbetween, or something completely different?

We had few threads on this recently with everything explained. Obviously it hasn't taken in one bit with the usual agnostic crowd. *unknw*

 

[MajorFubar]

I can't understand why anyone would get really shirty when you point out the glaringly-obvious fact that you're never going to get a record to sound as good as the analogue or digital recording it was transcribed from because of the physical limitations of the medium, no matter how much money you throw at a turntable. Try speaking to a mastering engineer. But actually I didn't think that was the original point of the discussion.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Yes mark knopfler is a craftsman...i think prairie wedding is just perfect...strange thing is I was going to ditch my cd player for something newer...my machine is 25 years old..got new pre amp...given my old spinner new lease of life! Cool...now where's those Hopi candles! Hahaha

 

[Vladimir]

You can hear what the engineer hears if you both have neutral speakers with good on and off axis response. Any added coloration in the chain of production and reproduction generates the Audio's Circle Of Confusion[/u].

Now the same people who say we can never know how it sounds, they think FR doesn't matter in audio, how we shouldn't use digital audio like the engineer does, don't buy the speakers he has, cables, amps, nothing the studio uses. And somehow through the magic of audiophile brand matching and store auditioning, one can get the original sound right. Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I can't understand why anyone would get really shirty when you point out the glaringly-obvious fact that you're never going to get a record to sound as good as the analogue or digital recording it was transcribed from because of the physical limitations of the medium, no matter how much money you throw at a turntable. Try speaking to a mastering engineer. But actually I didn't think that was the original point of the discussion.

I think the people who take offense to this scientific fact actually take it as a personal insult because they like the format. Because they are hearing a good sound they for whatever reason can't or won't see the bigger picture. It's either get annoyed or put their fingers in their ears and go "la - la - la - la - la, I'm not listening to this logic, la - la - la - la - la".

I know the sarcasm can be a bit much sometimes. Insults cross the line often on these forums, but when people decide that they don't like genuine factual debate in relation to the subject title and feel the need to resort to calling it trolling, then it makes the whole thread a pointless topic of discussion.

 

[Native_bon]

You can hear what the engineer hears if you both have neutral speakers with good on and off axis response. Any added coloration in the chain of production and reproduction generates the Audio's Circle Of Confusion.

Now the same people who say we can never know how it sounds, they think FR doesn't matter in audio, how we shouldn't use digital audio like the engineer does, don't buy the speakers he has, cables, amps, nothing the studio uses. And somehow through the magic of audiophile brand matching and store auditioning, one can get the original sound right. Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical.

This is the same point I have made time & time that home Hifi is not neutral sounding and can never sound like the original. Audiophiles are kidding themselves. You can only make the sorund believable never accurate. If vinyl can be more believable then to hell with accuracy. If the digital domain can do accurate & believable then better still. What matters to me most is believability.

 

[manicm]

You can hear what the engineer hears if you both have neutral speakers with good on and off axis response. Any added coloration in the chain of production and reproduction generates the Audio's Circle Of Confusion.

Now the same people who say we can never know how it sounds, they think FR doesn't matter in audio, how we shouldn't use digital audio like the engineer does, don't buy the speakers he has, cables, amps, nothing the studio uses. And somehow through the magic of audiophile brand matching and store auditioning, one can get the original sound right. Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical.

Who here has said this exactly? Do you always have an axe to grind?

 

[Vladimir]

You can hear what the engineer hears if you both have neutral speakers with good on and off axis response. Any added coloration in the chain of production and reproduction generates the Audio's Circle Of Confusion.

Now the same people who say we can never know how it sounds, they think FR doesn't matter in audio, how we shouldn't use digital audio like the engineer does, don't buy the speakers he has, cables, amps, nothing the studio uses. And somehow through the magic of audiophile brand matching and store auditioning, one can get the original sound right. Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical.

Who here has said this exactly? Do you always have an axe to grind?

I am really sorry. The job position as President of Vlad's Haters Country Club is now occupied by Tonky. Better luck in the next mandate.

 

[manicm]

You can hear what the engineer hears if you both have neutral speakers with good on and off axis response. Any added coloration in the chain of production and reproduction generates the Audio's Circle Of Confusion.

Now the same people who say we can never know how it sounds, they think FR doesn't matter in audio, how we shouldn't use digital audio like the engineer does, don't buy the speakers he has, cables, amps, nothing the studio uses. And somehow through the magic of audiophile brand matching and store auditioning, one can get the original sound right. Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical.

Who here has said this exactly? Do you always have an axe to grind?

I am really sorry. The job position as President of Vlad's Haters Country Club is now occupied by Tonky. Better luck in the next mandate.

You'd like to think you're hated, you're just being 'endured'.

 

[manicm]

You'd like to think you're hated, you're just being 'endured'.

OK. OK. I gues we can have you as a Club Secretary. You seem to be pssionate enough. *wink*

Nah, the vitriol would be wasted. I'd rather save that for politics...

 

[Vladimir]

You'd like to think you're hated, you're just being 'endured'.

OK. OK. I gues we can have you as a Club Secretary. You seem to be passionate enough. *wink*

 

[MajorFubar]

Mastering for vinyl is a craft. The reason the best records have the potential to sound so good is because the mastering engineers who cut the lacquers are absolutely at the top of their game. Half-speed remasters on virgin vinyl can sound especially stunning.

For those interested in reading about the subject, this is a very good article by legendary mastering engineer Noel Summerville and is not too long and not over-technical (why I chose it). But I already know the people who won't read it, or other similar articles. They're the people who say they're bored and disinterested in anything that goes on in the studio or mastering suite, why should they need to know what goes on in there, but they're also often same people who spread the most misguided information while purposefully refusing to clue themselves up. Presumably because they don't want to read something written by someone whose business it is to know the subject inside out and who might say something they disagree with.

 

[steve_1979]

That's an interesting link Major. Thanks for sharing.

 

[MrReaper182]

Life's to short to be worrying about such things. Just enjoy the music music when the recording sounds good.

 

[Vladimir]

Mastering for vinyl is a craft. The reason the best records have the potential to sound so good is because the mastering engineers who cut the lacquers are absolutely at the top of their game. Half-speed remasters on virgin vinyl can sound especially stunning.

For those interested in reading about the subject, this is a very good article by legendary mastering engineer Noel Summerville and is not too long and not over-technical (why I chose it). But I already know the people who won't read it, or other similar articles. They're the people who say they're bored and disinterested in anything that goes on in the studio or mastering suite, why should they need to know what goes on in there, but they're also often same people who spread the most misguided information while purposefully refusing to clue themselves up. Presumably because they don't want to read something written by someone whose business it is to know the subject inside out and who might say something they disagree with.

Wonderful read. Thanks for sharing it M.

Not only it shows the fragile beauty, craftsmanship and limitations of the vinyl media, it also tells you clearly that if it wasn't for electronic music and the dreaded Technics DJ deck, there would be no vinyl lathes, mastering engineers and vinyl revival today. I had a pair of SL-1200mkII as well as other cheaper (read worse) decks and bought fresh vinyl in 2002-06, some of it probably mastered by the engneer in that article (I had few James D. Richard plates).

 

[MajorFubar]

You're welcome, Vlad/Steve

 

[Infiniteloop]

You can hear what the engineer hears if you both have neutral speakers with good on and off axis response. Any added coloration in the chain of production and reproduction generates the Audio's Circle Of Confusion.

Now the same people who say we can never know how it sounds, they think FR doesn't matter in audio, how we shouldn't use digital audio like the engineer does, don't buy the speakers he has, cables, amps, nothing the studio uses. And somehow through the magic of audiophile brand matching and store auditioning, one can get the original sound right. Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical.

I disagree.

You can only hear what the engineer hears if you have the engineer's ears. So in effect you will never get to hear 'The Real Thing' because it is in someone else's head.

Doesn't that make chasing it pointless?

Surely putting together a system that makes music enjoyable, emotional and joyous is a better pursuit?

 

[Vladimir]

Just the earlobe bit, or...?