High End

[Thaiman]

[quote user="bluetorric"]
Just out of curiosity Mr T what cdp and speakers do you have hooked up to your SuperN?

[/quote]

Audionet Art V2, Amphion Xenon mk2

(Although my recommendation would be Naim cdx 2 and Neat Motive1)

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="al7478"][quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="stormbringer"]Too much detail isn't a good thing and that's what they strive for...[/quote]

In fact high end systems may even expose poorer recordings which may remain hidden in normal systems.[/quote]

I think that was the point. You dont want to find out that music you've enjoyed for ages is really terrible when given the most faithful reproduction, do you? Then, you'd own some great kit, and enjoy your music less. Or at least, enjoy less of your music.
[/quote]

Well yes to a point. But when you hear a good recording played through one of this high end systems- wow!

Its a shame to limit you music enjoyment to your worst recording. If you could afford such a high end system, may be you should have a second more conventional system for the more limited recording. Switch as necessary?

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Thaiman"]
[quote user="jimwall"]
Ah yes, but what you're missing is that some of drive a really old banger and still can't afford a high-end system

[/quote]

My car is 11 years old :-(
[/quote]

Mines 15 years old!
Ha ha I Win!!!!
Sigh.

 

[Anonymous]

This sums it up quite well...

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1001/spendorsub3.htm

 

[Anonymous]

I think that for me the difference is perhaps summed up by my Sondek, old and decrepit thought it is. The change from a rubbish CD player to that through a Cyrus 1 and some simple old Wharfedale 505.2s was awesome. Some very good mid-range systems that my friends had suddenly were, well, still really good, just a marked notch in the wrong direction. The source pulled in and controlled all the bright tendencies of the rest of the system and turned them into virtues. Loads of detail, but never unpleasant and at volumes previously unattanable. The bass, still light, but oh so blisteringly fast.
Now there's a new(ish) arm, a better m/c cartridge, a better amp, better speakers - mostly second hand but at the 750 quid new mark (as of 15 years ago and the faults have lessened. But I still know damn well that the LP12 has much much more to give and the amp, and then the speakers will change eventually to let it free.
Love it, or (as many do!) loath it, it's a truly class piece of kit. Perhaps not the most truthful there is but really truly a damn good listen. I'd call it high end. I long for the day I can afford to get the rest of the system up to that level.

 

[Anonymous]

It's too bad that some people define "high end" as high cost. To me, high end is the higher end of sound quality not cost. I think you need a minimum budget to be able to buy a high end system, but that budget isn't necessarily huge cost. For a basic system of say CD, amp and speakers, high end could be $5000. To answer Claire's question, I'd like to see high end recommendations fall into multiple brackets -- say, for the average working stiff, the well to do, the rich and the super rich (the magazine can define what these categories mean from demographics).

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with "drummerman". High end means superb quality and design from manufacturers who really care about crafting top quality equipment first and foremost. This implies that it costs more, but does not necessarily have to be beyond the reach of mere mortals. And then, when you listen to it, you get a thrill from the magic of the music and you forget about the technology ....

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread, this. Ever since Clare and I first hatched the plan to introduce a new Ultimate Guide to High-End, I've been wrestling with this very question, and I'm not sure I've yet arrived at a perfect definition.

Best I can come up with so far is this: a high-end piece of equipment has been engineered to deliver the maximum possible performance, whether sound, vision or both, with the minimum possible compromise.

Like every component for sale, it will have been developed with an awareness of commercial realities -ÿits styling, functionality, usability, energy consumption and, of course, costs of manufacture will all have been factored in to the development process. However, because of the retail priorities of the manufacturer, the likely target price of the product once it goes on sale, and the expectations of prospective buyers, the engineering team in charge of development will have been able to give more priority to outright performance than to, for example, keeping a tight rein over the cost of component parts.

To me, this definition works better than trying to attach a monetary value to high-end kit. A £400 B&W Zeppelin is, for example, high-end - not by established hi-fi standards, perhaps, but by the standards of its class, undoubtedly. Same applies to a Pioneer PDP-LX508D in a market where 50in plasma screens now cost £900 from Argos. These are products aimed at delivering the best possible result within their given sector of the market, and if that means you're asked to pay more for the privilege of ownership, well, so be it.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

You raise a good point Andy, in the context of catagory. I hadn't thought about that. I suppose that when you are partnering a £100 ipod, a £400 amp/speaker system may be considered high end by it's target audience.

But then we get into the debate as to when something stops being high end and becomes esoteric...

 

[Thaiman]

C'mon peeps, let face it.....

Highend is use for descriped "Expensive HiFi equipments". It's as simple as that.

Not all Highend products are well engineer! Not all Highend products used expensive component parts! (although they should be), the FACT remain that if it's not expensive, for whatever reasons, you wouldn't call it "highend"

Budget - Midrange - Highend mean differently to different people. My SuperNait is considered as a budget amp by some and a few other may say it's a high end product.

Now what is the first brand that come to your mind when you think Highend Hifi?

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Naim. Always seen Naim (even the Nait's) as high end. Probably due to the magazines I read as a teenager when I was buying my first "proper" hifi...

It must be the green and black. And no, not the chocolate. But wait... is that the high-end of chocolate???

)

 

[Anonymous]

Good point, when i pick up Nait 5i and cd5i i'll also go buy that chocilate to sit enjoying while listening to it!

[quote user="fatboyslimfast"]Naim. Always seen Naim (even the Nait's) as high end. Probably due to the magazines I read as a teenager when I was buying my first "proper" hifi...

It must be the green and black. And no, not the chocolate. But wait... is that the high-end of chocolate???

)[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

It's fair to say that the term high-end is most commonly used in reference to hi-fi kit, but increasingly the multichannel market has its own fair share of contributors to the cause, and the display sector isn't far off, either. Lexicon, Runco, SIM2 - they'd all qualify as high-end, wouldn't they?

As to the engineering element of your point: well, occasionally it'd be fair to say that there's an element of 'Emperor's New Clothes' about some expensive products, as if their manufacturers believe that their high cost alone is enough to justify their claim to quality. But that's not the norm. Most worthwhile high-end manufacturers, even relatively low-volume outfits, have enough about them to make their claims to quality valid.

That said, try to apply a logical pound=quality measure to high-end kit, and you'll often struggle. A £10,000 projector is not ten times better than a £2000 one. In fact, in many cases, it'll even use similar component parts - the DMD found in SIM2's HT3000E (£10,000) is the same as that in the InFocus IN82 (£3000), for example. Doesn't alter the fact that the SIM2 is a much better projector, incidentally (for a wide variety of reasons), but worth pointing out.

 

[Anonymous]

Worth adding, Fast Eddie, that if it's a CD5i and Nait 5i combo you're after, there's a chance to win one in the next issue of the Ultimate Guide to Hi-Fi.

 

[Thaiman]

I don't know much about projector (apart from reading in WHF!) but if we are talking HiFi then I have seen a few £1000 cd player (midrange) that out preform £4000 machine (highend).

That's why I said the word is simply use for "expensive" products rather than preformance.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Thaiman"]
C'mon peeps, let face it.....

Now what is the first brand that come to your mind when you think Highend Hifi?
[/quote]
Krell followed by Meridian.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course more affordable products can outperform more expensive ones. Happens all the time, and not just in the audio business. Try to keep up with a well-driven Arial Atom round a twisting circuitÿ- you'll struggle, no matter how powerful the supercar you're steering. Listen to a well-set-up £3000 hi-fi with components that complement each other effectively and you could well find you prefer it to something much more expensive, particularly if that hi-fi's sonic characteristics dovetail with your own listening preferences.

The key point is, that's the exception, not the rule. In most cases, more money buys better engineering, which in turn delivers better audio/video performance.

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Andy Kerr"]
The key point is, that's the exception, not the rule. In most cases, more money buys better engineering, which in turn delivers better audio/video performance.

[/quote]

Totally agree with that

that's why I couldn't believe when people said Highend gears are bright and horrible!

I know, as you are a journalist, you can't just write "Highend = Expensive" (I use to be one but fortunately it was for a Thai magazine).

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Andy Kerr"]Worth adding, Fast Eddie, that if it's a CD5i and Nait 5i combo you're after, there's a chance to win one in the next issue of the Ultimate Guide to Hi-Fi.[/quote]And when i just spent money on it... guess it can always go in the bedroom! (or to my dad's)

 

[Anonymous]

This is a very interesting thread.... I was a geeky tape operator for Decca Records at their West Hmpstead studios in the late 70's and was absolutely amazed at the holographic sound that the company got from Garrard 301's , SME arms with Decca london carts into Neve desks / Quad 405's and Tannoy horns.

These fabulous sounds were achieved by over specced electronics combined with obsessional quality thresholds when it came to aligning the machines and electronics. So I would say "High End" in the Hi Fi Market would be items designed with a fabulously high headroom. they operate well below their capability because they are capable of so much more than will be demanded from them. Also High end can't be mass produced. It MUST have an element of human assembly of circuit boards and electronics as a matter of course and every item must be set up and qulaity controlled before leaving the factory. By a PERSON with great ears and a technical background.. This QC should include burning in and measurement before delivery. High end should mean great electronics, obsessional quality control and faultless customer service and installation. THAT is why you pay high end prices.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Ryelane"]Decca london carts into Neve desks / Quad 405's and Tannoy horns.[/quote]

I have a Decca Gold and I absolutely love it! I have heard the Garrard (built like a tank) 401 and that sounded fantastic.

Then there are the lowther speakers, simple designs from the 40's that sell at high end prices and sound outstanding.

There are some thing that never age (being fundamentally right in the first place).

 

[Anonymous]

If this isn't High End then I don't know....

http://www.krellonline.com/html/m_SYS_inferno.html

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Thaiman"]

[quote user="Andy Kerr"]
The key point is, that's the exception, not the rule. In most cases, more money buys better engineering, which in turn delivers better audio/video performance.

[/quote]

Totally agree with that

that's why I couldn't believe when people said Highend gears are bright and horrible!

I know, as you are a journalist, you can't just write "Highend = Expensive" (I use to be one but fortunately it was for a Thai magazine).

[/quote]

Hi-end to me means over £5k per unit (and that is only 'entry' level hi-end). Every system I have heard costing this and more sounded terribly bright and fatiguing. To that end, my ears (and wallet) prefer cheaper systems. I have a £1k cdp, a £1.5k amp and £2k speakers - a 'budget' system to many but pure heaven to my ears.

 

[TonyHall]

[quote user="Andy Kerr"]...if it's a CD5i and Nait 5i combo you're after, there's a chance to win one in the next issue of the Ultimate Guide to Hi-Fi.[/quote]
Damn! Just unboxed, and started the long running-in period with mine (sounds good already) Regardless, I'm a happy chappy!
Cheers, Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="TonyHall"][quote user="Andy Kerr"]...if it's a CD5i and Nait 5i combo you're after, there's a chance to win one in the next issue of the Ultimate Guide to Hi-Fi.[/quote] Damn! Just unboxed, and started the long running-in period with mine (sounds good already) Regardless, I'm a happy chappy! Cheers, Tony.[/quote]

It will do, it's solid state and therefore requires no running-in...just a little warm-up. 30 mins should suffice.